Why NFP rather than condoms, sponge, etc.?

[BigE]

Again I have to correct you:
“The Church” does not make error. It’s the individual opinions and fallible groups that run into errors. We cannot possibly tackle the enormity of the former, so please let’s limit ourselves to the latter.

What is the church then - if not the people that make it up, both as individuals and groups?

What is your defination of “church”?

 

[Chancellare]

What is the church then - if not the people that make it up, both as individuals and groups?

What is your defination of “church”?

If your pastor or bishop or your highest leader suddenly announced that they have adopted a heretical view of their faith on their own incompetence, (to the consternation of your brethren) does that make your whole church in error?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Can anyone clarify why the Church says it is alright to use NFP but is not alright to use condoms, the sponge, etc…

Hi Goldy,

It was best explained to me using the context of marriage and the relationship between the Groom Jesus and His Bride, The Church. I wrote about this in a different thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1558998#post1558998
I hope that thread helps.

Besides, Catholics are conservatives. Can you imagine Nuns handing condoms out to the faithful? It’ll never happen…

 

[StCsDavid]

How about through the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

That is how the church always changes. And guess what - sometimes, many times, most times - the holy spirit can work through us. It is iur church too - not just the magisterium’s.

So the Holy Spirit guides you to contraception, and the Holy Spirit guides me to NFP. Under that scenario, there is no truth, only moral relativism.

It’s also clear that many see the Church as imposing its will upon them instead of proposing a way of life. Everyone has free will to accept the Church’s teaching or not. One either believes or doesn’t believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. If one chooses not, the Church forces no one to stay, but don’t expect it to conform itself to the whimsies of day. The Episcopal church tried that and look how fragmented they’ve become.

I’ve yet to find anyone who can definitively prove error in the Church’s teaching on NFP and the evil of contraception. Mostly all I hear is based on sheer personal opinion versus something more concrete such as scripture or tradition. It’s really more of a philosophical/theological argument versus a scientific one.

 

[NVBurch]

the combined oral contraceptive pil is not an abortifacient - that is a myth spread to scare people out of using it (and it seems to be quite effective)

It’s not a myth. I used to teach contraception in a university clinic. Contraceptive Technologythe source material we used written by the medical director of our local Planned Parenthood clinic openly admits that o.c.s do not always prevent conception; their secondary effect is to prevent implantation. ~

 

[NVBurch]

Then why did the Pope John Paul apologize?

To take the wind out of the sails of the Church’s critics.

“Certainly the condemnation of Galileo, even when understood in its proper context rather than in the exaggerated and sensational accounts so common in the media, proved to be an embarrassment to the Church, establishing the myth that the Church is hostile to science”. (Thomas E. Woods, Jr., PhD., How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization p. 74)

 

[NVBurch]

I find it totally inconsistent to believe in life before birth but not after it…

Logically then, it is equally inconsistent to believe in life after birth but not before it.

Not to mention the irrationality of attributing to your opponent things s/he did not say.

 

[Chancellare]

To take the wind out of the sails of the Church’s critics.

“Certainly the condemnation of Galileo, even when understood in its proper context rather than in the exaggerated and sensational accounts so common in the media, proved to be an embarrassment to the Church, establishing the myth that the Church is hostile to science”. (Thomas E. Woods, Jr., PhD., How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization p. 74)

 

[BigE]

It’s also clear that many see the Church as imposing its will upon them instead of proposing a way of life. Everyone has free will to accept the Church’s teaching or not. One either believes or doesn’t believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. If one chooses not, the Church forces no one to stay, but don’t expect it to conform itself to the whimsies of day. The Episcopal church tried that and look how fragmented they’ve become.

I can’t I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church and not agree with all of her teachings? Especially those, in my view, that have very little to do with faith and salvation?

If that were really true, the Catholic church would be a whole lot smaller.

The attached article deals nicely with this whole idea of questioning the churches teaching;
americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=4217&issueID=533

 

[jack_hawkins]

It’s not a myth. I used to teach contraception in a university clinic. Contraceptive Technologythe source material we used written by the medical director of our local Planned Parenthood clinic openly admits that o.c.s do not always prevent conception; their secondary effect is to prevent implantation. ~

and you have studied the literature and can give me the proof?
please show me the scientific proof
all you are doing is repeating the same mistake as everyone else

 

[jack_hawkins]

I find it totally inconsistent to believe in life before birth but not after it…

Logically then, it is equally inconsistent to believe in life after birth but not before it.right - and who has said this?

Not to mention the irrationality of attributing to your opponent things s/he did not say.

and who has done this?
yours very confused

 

[jack_hawkins]

I can’t I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church and not agree with all of her teachings? Especially those, in my view, that have very little to do with faith and salvation?

If that were really true, the Catholic church would be a whole lot smaller.

The attached article deals nicely with this whole idea of questioning the churches teaching;
americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=4217&issueID=533

Great article Big E - very helpful for myself with the issues I am struggling with:thumbsup:

 

[fix]

I can’t I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church and not agree with all of her teachings? Especially those, in my view, that have very little to do with faith and salvation?

If that were really true, the Catholic church would be a whole lot smaller.

The attached article deals nicely with this whole idea of questioning the churches teaching;
americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=4217&issueID=533

If one rejects even one teaching one necessarily rejects the entire faith. Why ? Because either Christ is the authority behind the Church or He is not. Either we each are the final arbiter or the Church is. To claim one may not assent to any particular teaching is to claim one is superior to Christ who speaks through His Church. The parts of the faith you accept you accept based on your own reasoning, not by the authority of God who speaks through His Church. So, how can one really claim the Church is the authority if one also claims they themself are the true authority?

As for the article is is typical of dissenters. They behave as if there are two Christs. One who speaks through His Church in the magisterium and the other Christ speaks through a separate magisterium that dissents. It is illogical and contradicts the bible and Sacred Tradition.

 

[StCsDavid]

I can’t I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church and not agree with all of her teachings? Especially those, in my view, that have very little to do with faith and salvation?

True, there are a huge number of cafeteria Catholics within the Church. Folks who pick and choose from a menu of Church teachings and create their own faith. If one does not believe in the authority that Christ gave to the Church; if one is protesting its teachings, especially those teachings that pertain to salvation and faith; then how is one not really a Protestant pretending to be Catholic? The Church teaches that the use of contraception is a mortal sin. It doesn’t get more serious than that. A person may not understand that teaching or agree with that teaching, today; however, that person’s opinion doesn’t alter the objective truth of the Church’s teaching.

Most of the arguments against the Church’s teaching on contraception have egocentric roots. We’re called to be a theocentric people. To realize God in the here and now. Read this short essay I wrote, and then consider in which direction one’s view of reality is turned by the use of contraception. It is turned inward on self, or outward towards God’s gift of life.

 

[jack_hawkins]

as people of flesh we have to consider the flesh
these arguments about denying the flesh stray towards gnosticism/dualism IMO

 

[StCsDavid]

as people of flesh we have to consider the flesh
these arguments about denying the flesh stray towards gnosticism/dualism IMO

I would encourage you to read John Paul II’s Theology of the Body to see that their is not denial of flesh in the Catholic teaching on human sexuality.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I wasn’t referring to JP II specifically

 

[Dwyer]

If BigE and Doc Hawkins need answers to important questions like these, I would recommend going over to Catholic Answers’ Catholic.com’s radio archive, and listen to a program or two on whatever topic they have questions about. Catholic Answers daily discusses issue such as contraception and all the teachings of the Catholic church with Catholic theologians, priests, bishops, the occasional Cardinal, and Catholic Apologists and experts.
I think evey show they have ever done in the five plus years is in their archive section, and you can listen to them over the internet–
all for free.

You can listen live online, and if you want to, you can call their toll free U.S. number and ask a question. They also have articles, tracts, and you can even search for answers on their search engine. It’s an excellent resource for finding Catholic Answers to your questions.

I like the discussion forum, and many of the responses you have received are good, but if you’re struggling with a teaching like contraception, and still feel you haven’t received a satisfactory answer to your question with all the computer type exhausted so far on this thread, and because the importance of the topic, you really need to consult some formal published Catholic writings or an orthodox Catholic expert to get the orthodox Catholic teaching on the subject. By “orthodox” I mean the word literally: true or right teaching.

I would think that most (although I could be wrong) of the people writing in the discussion group forum are not trained theologians, and do not hold degrees in theology. I am sure some of them are, and I am not saying that their explanations are not helpful or useful or right on the money, but I think if you are looking for a definitive answer and explanation of the Catholic Church’s doctrine on contraception, you need to read some formal published Catholic writings and it would be helpful to consult a Catholic expert. EWTN.com is also an excellent resource. They have a document library ( I found it a little difficult to use), and also make experts available on their Open Line program which airs at 3:00 p.m. E.S.T. weekly, and they also have an Answer Archive at thier Web of Faith Program.

Try it–you’ll like it .

 

[Julian_Peters]

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Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.