Why no communion for visiting Protestants?

[ronnok20]

Jesus said, whenever there are two or more of you (meaning members of His Church) there am I in the midst of them.

If any two Atheists get together, is Jesus in their midst? (I didn’t think so.)

Oh come on, I think that everyone here would assume that to be so. The key words here are “in my name”. I think that you may have just made an honest mistake there.

 

[ronnok20]

‘Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will be saved’

exactly

 

[LilyM]

exactly

So not everyone who claims to have the Real Presence actually does!

 

[ronnok20]

So not everyone who claims to have the Real Presence actually does!

I never said that. Everyone who accepts and abides in the scriptures for how they are written are the people of God. Jesus’ followers are not all RC.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe that the RC possess the real body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

Yes, since that’s how He set up His Church.

I also believe that churches who profess this same belief have it as well.

Even though they have separated from the Church that Christ set up, to start up their own? Even though they threw out all the authority of Christ’s Church?

Jesus talked of all Christians as his church.

No one had separated from Christ’s Church to start up their own church yet, during Christ’s life-time - all Christians were Catholic Christians, at that time.

Martin Luther didn’t begin to establish Protestantism and all of the divisions resulting from that, until 1517 AD.

 

[ronnok20]

Yes, since that’s how He set up His Church.

Even though they have separated from the Church that Christ set up, to start up their own? Even though they threw out all the authority of Christ’s Church?

No one had separated from Christ’s Church to start up their own church yet, during Christ’s life-time - all Christians were Catholic Christians, at that time.

Martin Luther didn’t begin to establish Protestantism and all of the divisions resulting from that, until 1517 AD.

Please show me in scripture where Jesus called his followers Catholic Christians.

 

[SyCarl]

Yes, since that’s how He set up His Church.

Even though they have separated from the Church that Christ set up, to start up their own? Even though they threw out all the authority of Christ’s Church?

No one had separated from Christ’s Church to start up their own church yet, during Christ’s life-time - all Christians were Catholic Christians, at that time.

Martin Luther didn’t begin to establish Protestantism and all of the divisions resulting from that, until 1517 AD.

There had been a number of precursors of the Reformation before Luther. The Waldenses held many Protestant beliefs by the 12th century or earlier, and they have continued to this present time. There were Wycliffe and the Lollards in England during the 14th century and Huss and the Hussites in Bohemia in the 15th century. I think what propelled the Reformation was that the printing press allowed tracts to be more widely disseminated, as well as more visible abuses to attack.

 

[jmcrae]

I never said that. Everyone who accepts and abides in the scriptures for how they are written are the people of God. Jesus’ followers are not all RC.

No, but only those who are RC retain the promises of Christ to the Church, and the authority to give the Sacraments.

The Protestants lost all authority to do anything when they rejected the authority of the Catholic Church. Once you lose something like that, you can’t get it back just by reading the Bible.

Christ’s authority in the Church is passed down by the laying on of hands, and this laying on of hands has to go back in an unbroken line to the Apostles. The Orthodox Churches are the only schismatic groups that have retained this, because they had the wits and foresight not to burn all their Bishops at the stake when they separated, first of all (Anglicans kept their Bishops, anyway), and then they also had the wit and foresight not to change the wording and intent of the Ordination ceremony (Anglicans changed the wording and intent of the Ordination ceremony).

If they don’t have the laying on of hands that goes back to the time of the Apostles (valid Ordination) then no matter how hard they try, or how much they want to, they can’t cause the bread and wine to become Christ’s body and blood.

 

[LilyM]

I never said that. Everyone who accepts and abides in the scriptures for how they are written are the people of God. Jesus’ followers are not all RC.

No not all Jesus’ followers are RC, and not all Jesus’ followers can confect the Eucharist either. Just like not all of His followers can perform marriages or funeral services, or ordain ministers …

 

[ronnok20]

No not all Jesus’ followers are RC, and not all Jesus’ followers can confect the Eucharist either. Just like not all of His followers can perform marriages or funeral services, or ordain ministers …

So from the beginning Jesus planned that only the RC was his church no matter what they did. This is ridiculous.

 

[DianJo]

Ronnok,
Are you angry with the Catholic Church for some particular reason? Your questions and statements, even in the beginning of the thread, sound angry and snippy - not to offend, just trying to see if there is something particular we can address - a particular incident, perhaps?

If you are sincere in asking your questions, we are more than happy to try and help you understand but I’m hearing something more in your posts.

 

[jmcrae]

There had been a number of precursors of the Reformation before Luther. The Waldenses held many Protestant beliefs by the 12th century or earlier, and they have continued to this present time. There were Wycliffe and the Lollards in England during the 14th century and Huss and the Hussites in Bohemia in the 15th century.

I doubt you would want to be connected or associated with any of their heresies. I hope you aren’t claiming to be descended from them. That would be really sad. There are still some Waldenses in existence - two communities of them in northern Italy. They have a hard go of it, because they use a rather literal interpretation of the Evangelical Counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. The only beliefs they have in common with Protestantism are that they don’t like the Pope, and they reject the authority of the Church.

The rest of those groups have died out, thus disqualifying them from being considered Christ’s Church (which will remain on the earth until the end of time, according to His promise).

I think what propelled the Reformation was that the printing press allowed tracts to be more widely disseminated, as well as more visible abuses to attack.

At the beginning of the printing revolution, it also never occurred to the average reader that someone might print something that he didn’t know for a fact to be true. So, it was possible to print all kinds of wild propaganda about the Pope, and people believed it because it didn’t occur to them at the time that it is just as easy to gossip in print as by word of mouth.

That people don’t like to follow God’s authority is as old as Adam and Eve, and certainly there have been people throughout the history of the Church who rejected its God-given authority, for reasons that seemed good to them at the time.

 

[mlldrl]

I think what propelled the Reformation was that the printing press allowed tracts to be more widely disseminated, as well as more visible abuses to attack.

Disobedient and self seeking ruling class is what gave the reformation a foothold and fostered it. It was in the interest in corrupt princes to have the ‘church’ under their control and not Rome’s. Luther was a pawn that allowed the ruling class to gain more power. Read Belloc on the subject.

My :twocents: worth.

M

 

[Renton405]

Why does Jesus state that his body and blood is shed for you (the Apostles) and for all so that sins may be forgiven, but yet the RC will not allow Protestants to receive the eucharist? It would greatly seem that Catholics don’t even consider Protestants regardless of denomination to be part of the body of Christ. It seems quite unbiblical and unchristianlike for that matter to deny anyone the body and blood of Christ when it was Christ himself who allowed Judas to partake in the last supper (first communion) knowing full well of what he was about to do. Also, if the eucharist is for the forgiveness of sins, then why the emphasis of the RC for those about to receive it to be free from as much sin as possible? None of these church teachings seem to square with scripture.

’

Until protestants stop calling us the Whore of Babylon, follow Luther, accuse the Pope of being the antichrist, and deny the Real Prescense in the Eucharist we will not recognize them…They do no recognize matthew 16 where Jesus says the church will be built where Peter is, and that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven… Protestants do not follow this verse in the bible…

Luthers main goal was for his believers to seperate themselves from the True Church and break away… and now there are 30,000 denominations because of this… why should we allow a group whos sole intention was to break away from the church and call our church the whore of Babylon? who deny the sacraments and follow unscriptual theologys like sola scriptura?.. who alllow abortion (thus breaking the commandments) and divorce? no such church will be in communion with the Catholic Church until they change their ways…

Protestants deny the Real Prescense, that it is the actual blood and body of Christ…They have a different view…The ECF also said we need to stay connected to the bishop, otherwise we will go into division and confusion. Thats exactly whats happened with protestantism…St. Ignatius who was a student of the apostle John said this, and was very clear about us never breaking away from the bishop… No church that was created in the year 1500 can truely claim FULL communion with Christ, they have absolutly no connection historically with the apostles or the apostles diciples(ECF) the way the CC has…

The main reason is that protestants aren’t in FULL communion of Christ… but only partly , and only because of their ignorance of the Catholic Church and their bullheaded attitude towards us…

 

[Brendan]

Answer: I have no idea what other denominations believe about the eucharist. My denomination believes it to be the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

But do you also believe that Christ instituted the Catholic Church, with Peter as it’s temporal head, and protects the Church from all error.

If you deny that, they you deny the Body of Christ which is His Church.

One cannot, with the same mouth, deny the Body of Christ and then recieve the Body of Christ.

 

[Allweather]

There had been a number of precursors of the Reformation before Luther. The Waldenses held many Protestant beliefs by the 12th century or earlier, and they have continued to this present time. There were Wycliffe and the Lollards in England during the 14th century and Huss and the Hussites in Bohemia in the 15th century. I think what propelled the Reformation was that the printing press allowed tracts to be more widely disseminated, as well as more visible abuses to attack.

So, yes, there’ve been heresies all along, some of them showing up in the New Testament. And this is undoubtedly correct, that the printing press allowed greater dissemination of the material. As communications technologies have advanced, for sure, the heresies have spread more rapidly. Television has really upped the ante… just look at Benny Hinn with his ersatz Roman collar. Meantime, the Catholic Church has continued to teach the faith, often behind the power curve in terms of technological adaptation, but never at a disadvantage in terms of theological sophistication. Whether the break-a-ways admit it or not, the Catholic Church continues to lead the way.

 

[jmcrae]

So from the beginning Jesus planned that only the RC was his church no matter what they did. This is ridiculous.

Christ only founded the RC Church. It was Christ who set St. Peter up as our first Pope. (See Matthew 16:18-19 and John 21:15-19)

The rest of the churches were founded much later - of those that exist today, only the Orthodox and the Waldenses came any earlier than 1517 - the Orthodox churches schismated in 1054, and the Waldenses were excommunicated for heresy in the late 900s AD.

There have been other heretical groups in the past that broke away from the RC Church as well, but they no longer exist today.

 

[LilyM]

So from the beginning Jesus planned that only the RC was his church no matter what they did. This is ridiculous.

He planned to establish ONE church and protect it with His own presence and the Holy Spirit - you can choose to believe that Church is the Catholic, the Orthodox, both of the Apostolic churches or your own. You can’t believe it’s all of them (which is the same as saying it’s NONE of them).

What IS ridiculous is to suggest that such disparate belief systems share equally in His favour or His truth.

 

[SyCarl]

I doubt you would want to be connected or associated with any of their heresies. I hope you aren’t claiming to be descended from them. That would be really sad. There are still some Waldenses in existence - two communities of them in northern Italy. They have a hard go of it, because they use a rather literal interpretation of the Evangelical Counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. The only beliefs they have in common with Protestantism are that they don’t like the Pope, and they reject the authority of the Church.

The rest of those groups have died out, thus disqualifying them from being considered Christ’s Church (which will remain on the earth until the end of time, according to His promise).

I do believe that the groups I mentioned were fairly close to Protestants. I have done quite a bit of reading on my own with respect to precursors. That is why I left out some of their contemporaries like the Albigenses and the Cathars who were clearly not orthodox in their beliefs.

At the beginning of the printing revolution, it also never occurred to the average reader that someone might print something that he didn’t know for a fact to be true. So, it was possible to print all kinds of wild propaganda about the Pope, and people believed it because it didn’t occur to them at the time that it is just as easy to gossip in print as by word of mouth.

That people don’t like to follow God’s authority is as old as Adam and Eve, and certainly there have been people throughout the history of the Church who rejected its God-given authority, for reasons that seemed good to them at the time.

Much of what was said did have truth to it, at least with respect to abuses. These could be seen by the people. Such things as simony, the sale of indulgences and holding multiple sees or other offices did exist. Much was corrected by the Council of Trent.

 

[Renton405]

Please show me in scripture where Jesus called his followers Catholic Christians.

The Word Catholic came from St. Ignatius… who was a student of the apostle John and a close friend…Id somehow take Ignatius’s word over Luthers ANYDAY

Ignatius also said we must stay connected to the bishop, otherwise we will go into heresy…