B
BrianH
Guest
A personal zing,Not internet amateurs who make up their own theology based on their feelings. I think you overestimate your scholarly abilities…
Ah, but each to his own
I will take Jesus at his words.
- Status
I will take Jesus at his words.
B
BrianH
Guest
I dont use a cross. I have never said anything about the crucifix in person. The topic came up and OP wanted to know why Protestants do not use the cross. I answered. I do not think your view is irrational but if you think ours is…so be it.
BrianH
T
tjmiller
Guest
As I became a Catholic after being raised not merely protestant, but rabidly anti-Catholic in the bargain, the rationale for the display of the crucifix was immediately evident to me. It is an eminently biblical practice!
St. Paul writes, “We preach,” he says, not Christ raised from the dead, not Christ ascended into heaven, but “Christ crucified, unto the Jews [and protestants?] a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness, but unto them which are called…Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God…For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him” not raised from the dead, not ascended into heaven, but “crucified” (I Cor. 1:23-24; 2:2; cf.also Gal. 3:1).
We easily see, then, that if St. Paul himself had the choice of displaying, either an empty cross, or a crucifix (or nothing at all), he evidently would have gone with the crucifix…
St. Paul writes, “We preach,” he says, not Christ raised from the dead, not Christ ascended into heaven, but “Christ crucified, unto the Jews [and protestants?] a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness, but unto them which are called…Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God…For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him” not raised from the dead, not ascended into heaven, but “crucified” (I Cor. 1:23-24; 2:2; cf.also Gal. 3:1).
We easily see, then, that if St. Paul himself had the choice of displaying, either an empty cross, or a crucifix (or nothing at all), he evidently would have gone with the crucifix…
B
BrianH
Guest
TJ
Displaying and teaching…I see a difference. I would think the display of the cross or the empty tomb would be contrary to his Jewish roots…personally
Displaying and teaching…I see a difference. I would think the display of the cross or the empty tomb would be contrary to his Jewish roots…personally
M
Mickey
Guest
T
tjmiller
Guest
There are few better means of teaching than by using visual aids.
I think it was St. Bernard who called the crucifix “cathedra docenti” - the Chair of Teaching!
My roommate in college at the time I became a Catholic was a non-Christian Japanese student there to learn English as a second language. He wasunfamilar with Catholicism, but also unbiased and inquisitive. He attended a few Masses with me, and various evangelical protestant services with other friends.
I asked him, which of them made Christianity the easiest to understand, and meant the most to him? Hands down, the Catholic Mass won - because of the impression made by our visual aids. An empty cross meant nothing to him - it was just a stick. But a cross with Jesus on it - that taught him just about all he needed to know.
I think it was St. Bernard who called the crucifix “cathedra docenti” - the Chair of Teaching!
My roommate in college at the time I became a Catholic was a non-Christian Japanese student there to learn English as a second language. He wasunfamilar with Catholicism, but also unbiased and inquisitive. He attended a few Masses with me, and various evangelical protestant services with other friends.
I asked him, which of them made Christianity the easiest to understand, and meant the most to him? Hands down, the Catholic Mass won - because of the impression made by our visual aids. An empty cross meant nothing to him - it was just a stick. But a cross with Jesus on it - that taught him just about all he needed to know.
B
BrianH
Guest
Nice answer TJ.
Classy.
Classy.
E
exoflare
Guest
I don’t think Jesus being a Jew would have posed a problem for making visual representations (i.e. “graven images”) of anything, his own crucifixion included. Think about it, if God was against the making of any sort of graven image whatsoever, he would be contradicting himself when he expressly commanded the people to make the bronze serpent in Exodus and also the two cherubim on the sides of the Ark of the Covenant. It was the WORSHIP of graven images that God has always been against!
B
BrianH
Guest
Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
The Bible is full of references to graven image.
BrianH
L
Lischou
Guest
Hi all…just checked back in to see how things were going. Thanks Orionthehunter for anwsering Brian’s question and I would echo your answer!
Brian, how are you able to be certain that you have understood the Bible correctly when you read it and render an interpretation of it?
Also, you keep saying, “Jesus is Jewish”…so he would think thus and so. Explain, please, how you came about these deductions. How do you see this as impacting the display of a religious object?
As concerns the crucifix/cross/statue being a “graven image” prohibited in the 10 commandments, the definition of a graven image is as follows: a carved or shaped image adored as an object of worship; an idol (Webster’s Dictionary, Unabridged, 2nd edition). No one in my Catholic church today (or ever) or in the Baptist churches I attended ever worshipped those religious objects…anymore than those of you who attend your church-home worship the *image *of Elvis on the wall there.
Love in Christ,
Lisa
Brian, how are you able to be certain that you have understood the Bible correctly when you read it and render an interpretation of it?
Also, you keep saying, “Jesus is Jewish”…so he would think thus and so. Explain, please, how you came about these deductions. How do you see this as impacting the display of a religious object?
As concerns the crucifix/cross/statue being a “graven image” prohibited in the 10 commandments, the definition of a graven image is as follows: a carved or shaped image adored as an object of worship; an idol (Webster’s Dictionary, Unabridged, 2nd edition). No one in my Catholic church today (or ever) or in the Baptist churches I attended ever worshipped those religious objects…anymore than those of you who attend your church-home worship the *image *of Elvis on the wall there.
Love in Christ,
Lisa
M
MonicaC
Guest
I fully agree. My then three year old son feel in love with the crucifix. He didn’t talk till he was three and a half but he would at first just stare at the crucifix and now he will always grab his crucifix and talk about all that Jesus suffered for us. He always makes sure to say that he wants to be a good boy today because Jesus died for him, and he never wants Jesus to hurt again.
I think this speaks volumes when it comes to how important it is to remember what it is we are here for. St Theresa of Aviala would say that she would mediate on the crucifix.
T
tjmiller
Guest
As a good Papist, I’ve got plenty of graven images all around me at home right this moment - and I worship all of them! (albeit not nearly as much as I should…)
BUT:
#1. I am not an Ancient Jew (nor a Mohammedan), so any imagined prohibition against all “graven images” does not apply to
me.
#2. The “worship” I proffer, in accordance with perennial Catholic teaching, is the worship of relative **dulia ** - not the worship of latria due to God alone.
BUT:
#1. I am not an Ancient Jew (nor a Mohammedan), so any imagined prohibition against all “graven images” does not apply to
me.
#2. The “worship” I proffer, in accordance with perennial Catholic teaching, is the worship of relative **dulia ** - not the worship of latria due to God alone.
B
BrianH
Guest
Hi Lisa
Certain?
I am certain that scripture contains what I NEED to have.
I am not always certain of my interpretation. A lot of bad things have been done by people who are sure of their certainity…still I do seek to 'search the scriptures" as Christ taught.
Graven image?
Well, I am not a OT(to use our terms) expert but graven image is referred to SO many times…and Jesus would not have subscribed to the Websters definition based upon what the OT says graven image means.
Good questions thanks
I like your style
BH
A
AquinasXVI
Guest
The typology that the serpent on the rod that Moses erected for those bitten by snakes prefigure Christ on the cross. That all who look upon it will be healed.
The crucifix is the most beautiful and mysterious icon for Christianity for it is the most dramatic expression of Love/God that has been given to the whole of humanity. To not have a crucifix is to risk forgetting the degree of pain and sacrifice this love cost. It is both humiliating to a sinner and edifying to the saint. This icon of all icons represents the pinnacle of history and rightfully deserve to be honored and used as a physical reminder of the sacrifice.
in XT.
The crucifix is the most beautiful and mysterious icon for Christianity for it is the most dramatic expression of Love/God that has been given to the whole of humanity. To not have a crucifix is to risk forgetting the degree of pain and sacrifice this love cost. It is both humiliating to a sinner and edifying to the saint. This icon of all icons represents the pinnacle of history and rightfully deserve to be honored and used as a physical reminder of the sacrifice.
in XT.
T
TheRaiders
Guest
Brian, I applaud your searching the Bible. That you are on this site means that like us, you do not rely on your interpretation alone. This is a good community to learn from, because the people here often back up their comments with sources, and well- defined logic. Check this out.
This Rock January 1994:
IN Exodus 20:3-6 God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se. Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.
“[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19).
“You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked” (Ex. 26:1).
“The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole” (Num. 21:8-9).
“He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).
“[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east” (1 Kgs. 7:25).
“And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about” (1 Kgs. 7:36).
Not only does God like statues and images, He prescribes them for use in religious rituals. Also, notice the statue of the serpent was given power by God. God has done this through statues many times as if to prove to us that He is OK with us using them. Many statues of Mary, Jesus and other Saints have been the sites of miracles performed by God.
Also, as Catholics, we are backwards thinking people. This is because we believe the Church Jesus founded with the 12 Apostles was His Church untill the end of time. We look back on our history and ask “Has there ever been a debate within the Church whether they should use statues and paintings to aid worship? If so, what was the outcome?” The answer is no there has never been a big debate. An early Christian Church was just found in Jerusalem. The was they knew it was Christian was by the Mozaic of images on the floor. If you go to Europe you find the statues tell biblical and early Christian hitsotries at one glance for a people who used to be largley illiterate.
This Rock January 1994:
IN Exodus 20:3-6 God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se. Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.
“[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19).
“You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked” (Ex. 26:1).
“The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole” (Num. 21:8-9).
“He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).
“[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east” (1 Kgs. 7:25).
“And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about” (1 Kgs. 7:36).
Not only does God like statues and images, He prescribes them for use in religious rituals. Also, notice the statue of the serpent was given power by God. God has done this through statues many times as if to prove to us that He is OK with us using them. Many statues of Mary, Jesus and other Saints have been the sites of miracles performed by God.
Also, as Catholics, we are backwards thinking people. This is because we believe the Church Jesus founded with the 12 Apostles was His Church untill the end of time. We look back on our history and ask “Has there ever been a debate within the Church whether they should use statues and paintings to aid worship? If so, what was the outcome?” The answer is no there has never been a big debate. An early Christian Church was just found in Jerusalem. The was they knew it was Christian was by the Mozaic of images on the floor. If you go to Europe you find the statues tell biblical and early Christian hitsotries at one glance for a people who used to be largley illiterate.
T
tjmiller
Guest
Aquinas16: Hear, hear!
BH: Jesus nowhere advised us to “search the Scriptures”!
I hate to get off-thread, but Jesus was actually criticizing the Scripture-searchers of his day. Condemning the Scribes and Pharisees, He declared:
“*You search the Scriptures, because you think in them to have eternal life…” * (Jn. 5:39)
(While the Greek term here, ereunate, can also be rendered imperatively, the context indicates that the translation above is preferable.)
BH: Jesus nowhere advised us to “search the Scriptures”!
I hate to get off-thread, but Jesus was actually criticizing the Scripture-searchers of his day. Condemning the Scribes and Pharisees, He declared:
“*You search the Scriptures, because you think in them to have eternal life…” * (Jn. 5:39)
(While the Greek term here, ereunate, can also be rendered imperatively, the context indicates that the translation above is preferable.)
A
AquinasXVI
Guest
Thanks TJM!
To push this iconography even further. The CC which is the household of God is the home of the children of God. Every home has pictures of grandfathers, parents, wedding pictures…so every CC has its greatest ‘relatives’ on display at all times so we can harken back to their piety and devotion to God for additional inspiration and communion. It makes for a cozy home in my eyes at least.
in XT.
To push this iconography even further. The CC which is the household of God is the home of the children of God. Every home has pictures of grandfathers, parents, wedding pictures…so every CC has its greatest ‘relatives’ on display at all times so we can harken back to their piety and devotion to God for additional inspiration and communion. It makes for a cozy home in my eyes at least.
in XT.
T
tjmiller
Guest
Aquinas16: Yes! That’s exactly how I explained sacred images to my heathen Japanese buddy…It made eminent common sense.
[To be an inconoclast requires something distinctly different from good sense.
[Which is not to say that some ersatz “Catholic” artistic abominations plaguing contemporary churches should not be smashed…
[So, I guess to appreciate genuine sacred art, one must have both good sense AND good taste.
I didn’t have much of either one, until I became a Catholic…]
[To be an inconoclast requires something distinctly different from good sense.
[Which is not to say that some ersatz “Catholic” artistic abominations plaguing contemporary churches should not be smashed…
[So, I guess to appreciate genuine sacred art, one must have both good sense AND good taste.
I didn’t have much of either one, until I became a Catholic…]
T
tjmiller
Guest
TheRaiders: I admire your post, but there **was ** a conflict within the Church regarding the propriety of images and their veneration: the Iconoclast controversy in the 7th and 8th centuries - although confined to the East, influenced by anti-image Islam - in which St. John Damascence, last of the great Fathers, was the leading exponent for images.
The Islam connection raises an important point: anti-image protestants need to see how their stance ultimately derives, not from Scripture or from historical Christianity, but from the great nemesis thereof, Mahommedanism.
The Islam connection raises an important point: anti-image protestants need to see how their stance ultimately derives, not from Scripture or from historical Christianity, but from the great nemesis thereof, Mahommedanism.
B
BrianH
Guest
Tj
You are right about the specific verse that says, search the scripture. It was not a good quote to use.
He does implore us to know it and apply it though.
An example
Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
- Status