Why No LDS Catechism?

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Another perennial question that is often asked of LDS, especially by Catholics, is why there is no official LDS catechism? They insinuate that that is because LDS doctrine needs to frequently change! Not true! For the answer, have a look as the latest entry in my Blog. (It was a long post, so I decided to post it in my Blog rather than here. I hope the Admin don’t mind.)

zerinus
 
Another perennial question that is often asked of LDS, especially by Catholics, is why there is no official LDS catechism? They insinuate that that is because LDS doctrine needs to frequently change! Not true! For the answer, have a look as the latest entry in my Blog. (It was a long post, so I decided to post it in my Blog rather than here. I hope the Admin don’t mind.)

zerinus
You’re right. It doesn’t have to change frequently, just look how long it took to accept that black people weren’t evil;) 👍
 
You’re right. It doesn’t have to change frequently, just look how long it took to accept that black people weren’t evil;) 👍
I am not sure if you intended that as a plus or a minus. I see it as a definitive plus! 😃

zerinus
 
Another perennial question that is often asked of LDS, especially by Catholics, is why there is no official LDS catechism? They insinuate that that is because LDS doctrine needs to frequently change! Not true! For the answer, have a look as the latest entry in my Blog. (It was a long post, so I decided to post it in my Blog rather than here. I hope the Admin don’t mind.)

zerinus
Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, the welfare of the church is more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

Robert Millet on “how to handle anti-mormon criticism” (Flash Video) - Millet speaks about how to handle the tough anti-Mormon questions missionaries may face while on their missions or afterward. “We never provide meat when milk will do.” “We seek to answer any serious question by finding the most direct route to the Sacred Grove.” “Don’t answer the question they ask, answer the question they should have asked.”
mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith
Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion, and that the Mormon “faithful history” policy discloses a group of modern philosopher kings who feel justified in telling pious lies. “Faithful history” is a form of Mormon censorship. It suppresses all information that does not encourage Mormons to be more obedient to current Mormon leaders. Hence, facts that strongly suggest Smith and other Mormon leaders are not trustworthy are airbrushed out of Mormon consciousness.mccue.cc/bob/spirituality.htm

“Breaking the Mormon Code,” by Matthew Paulson, is a well-written critique of Mormon Scholarship in regard to Christian theology. Paulson does a thorough job of bringing to light the central issue of how LDS scholars and Brigham Young University religion professors misuse foundational Christian beliefs to support Mormonism’s non-biblical doctrines.

5 of 6 people found the following review helpful:
Truth Seekers need this book!, January 27, 2007
By Tracy Tennant “Equipping Christians” (Kansas City)

This book is unlike other apologetics in that Paulson does not set out to prove that Mormonism is theologically incorrect. Instead, he reveals the ways in which Mormon scholars deceive their readers by misquoting, taking out of context, and misapplying the teachings of the Early Christian Church Fathers. Paulson also touches on a few of the many scriptures the Mormon Church twists into aberrant meanings through eisegesis and exegesis. Through the use of fallacious arguments these same scholars attempt to seduce Mormons and Christians alike into believing that there is little difference between what Christian Church Fathers taught and what the LDS Church teaches today.

From: dosdog2 Sent: 5/18/2007 1:09 AM
Paulson’s book performs two very valuable services in the academic arena. First of all, he demonstrates conclusively that many LDS scholars have been less than professional in the way that they have selectively quoted-- and sometimes, misquoted – early Christian Fathers and heretic writers of the last 2000 years, with the aim of making it seem that Mormonism restores the original, doctrinally pure Gospel of the first century AD. Paulson’s second contributions are his helpful charts and lists. Especially useful is the comparison of classic Christian creeds with the LDS Articles of Faith–which is, as Paulson shows, indeed itself a creed.
Breaking the Mormon Code: A Critique of Mormon Scholarship (Paperback)
by Matthew, A. Paulson (Author)
(5 customer reviews)
amazon.com/Breaking-Mormon-Code-Critique-Scholarship/dp/1595940677
 
Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, the welfare of the church is more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

Robert Millet on “how to handle anti-mormon criticism” (Flash Video) - Millet speaks about how to handle the tough anti-Mormon questions missionaries may face while on their missions or afterward. “We never provide meat when milk will do.” “We seek to answer any serious question by finding the most direct route to the Sacred Grove.” “Don’t answer the question they ask, answer the question they should have asked.”
mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith
Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion, and that the Mormon “faithful history” policy discloses a group of modern philosopher kings who feel justified in telling pious lies. “Faithful history” is a form of Mormon censorship. It suppresses all information that does not encourage Mormons to be more obedient to current Mormon leaders. Hence, facts that strongly suggest Smith and other Mormon leaders are not trustworthy are airbrushed out of Mormon consciousness.mccue.cc/bob/spirituality.htm

“Breaking the Mormon Code,” by Matthew Paulson, is a well-written critique of Mormon Scholarship in regard to Christian theology. Paulson does a thorough job of bringing to light the central issue of how LDS scholars and Brigham Young University religion professors misuse foundational Christian beliefs to support Mormonism’s non-biblical doctrines.

5 of 6 people found the following review helpful:
Truth Seekers need this book!, January 27, 2007
By Tracy Tennant “Equipping Christians” (Kansas City)

This book is unlike other apologetics in that Paulson does not set out to prove that Mormonism is theologically incorrect. Instead, he reveals the ways in which Mormon scholars deceive their readers by misquoting, taking out of context, and misapplying the teachings of the Early Christian Church Fathers. Paulson also touches on a few of the many scriptures the Mormon Church twists into aberrant meanings through eisegesis and exegesis. Through the use of fallacious arguments these same scholars attempt to seduce Mormons and Christians alike into believing that there is little difference between what Christian Church Fathers taught and what the LDS Church teaches today.

From: dosdog2 Sent: 5/18/2007 1:09 AM
Paulson’s book performs two very valuable services in the academic arena. First of all, he demonstrates conclusively that many LDS scholars have been less than professional in the way that they have selectively quoted-- and sometimes, misquoted – early Christian Fathers and heretic writers of the last 2000 years, with the aim of making it seem that Mormonism restores the original, doctrinally pure Gospel of the first century AD. Paulson’s second contributions are his helpful charts and lists. Especially useful is the comparison of classic Christian creeds with the LDS Articles of Faith–which is, as Paulson shows, indeed itself a creed.
Breaking the Mormon Code: A Critique of Mormon Scholarship (Paperback)
by Matthew, A. Paulson (Author)
(5 customer reviews)
amazon.com/Breaking-Mormon-Code-Critique-Scholarship/dp/1595940677
This is just a desperate and obscene rant that says a lot more about its author than it does about Mormonism. Disgrace piled on disgrace.

zerinus
 
This is just a desperate and obscene rant that says a lot more about its author than it does about Mormonism. Disgrace piled on disgrace.

zerinus
Your’s is the faith that changed its mind about black people being evil. Good that they changed, but it indicates the falsehood of the faith at its foundation.
 
Isn’t D&C a type of Catechism? It holds the doctrines of the Church.
 
We do not have a catechism because we prefer to let the word of God to speak for itself, rather than let someone else tell us what it should say.
But Zerinus, surely if your church officially produces this document, would you believe it is merely a, ‘creation of man?’ Don’t you believe your church can authoritatively pronounce on doctrine? Don’t all Mormons believe this?

Wouldn’t it be the very point of your church to explain what its own scriptures mean, both to young and unschooled Mormons, as well as Mormons that need to be catechized?

It wouldn’t be the case that it would be, “letting someone else tell us what it should say”-- it would be the case of letting the church tell you what the scriptures specially entrusted to it say.
We believe that no one can do better than what God Himself has done, in defining the doctrines of the Church in His own revelations and scripture that He has given to the Church. That is why they are given. There is nothing that man can do that can improve on what God has done.
This is besides the point, Zerinus. The question isn’t whether scriptures can be, “done better,” but of making a manual which guides one surely through doctrine. Quite simply, scriptures are not manuals of doctrine, although they do contain it. Scriptures make no pretense as to being complete in themselves, and in any case, since there is no, “index” in the scriptures built in for doctrines x, y, and z, it is nearly impossible for the common believer to start from scratch every generation and build, for himself the doctrine of the church once again. In fact, I would argue that the only reason-- or rather, the predominant reason-- that one extracts certain doctrines from scriptures is because one has grown up with a certain framework of belief/rule of faith-- hence the Mormon can derive Mormon doctrine from it-- with which they interpret scriptures.
Having a catechism does not mean that doctrine cannot change. It is more likely to change!
What does this even mean, Zerinus? Does it refer back to a catechism or to doctrine? Why in the world would having a catechism make doctrine more likely to change? If having a catechism means the catechism is likely to change, why does this point even matter, after all, we profess only the unchanging nature of doctrine, not catechisms.
It is scripture that does not change. Catechisms can and do change.
Again, the issue at stake is unchanging doctrine, not unchanging catechisms. It’s a clever slight of hand, but a slight of hand nonetheless. Catechisms do change because catechisms are targeted at specific groups of people in specific time periods. They are aimed at making the one and same doctrine understandable by different people at different times. If catechisms do change, it is not such a big deal.
Has the catechism of the Catholic Church always been the same? Has the Catholic Church always had a catechism? When was it written? Has it never been revised or changed? Has it evolved? What is the history of it? According to an article in the Wikipedia on the Catechism, “The current Catechism of the Catholic Church [is] the first *** complete rewrite*** since the Council of Trent in 1566.” So it looks like the Catechism of the Catholic Church has not always been the same. Maybe Catholic doctrine is not so “unchanging” after all!
Again, it’s the same subtle switch.

You more or less argue that, the Catechism changes, therefore doctrine changes. This is a very poor argument. Surely you can do better.

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church has not always been the same…” from which you conclude, “maybe Catholic doctrine is not so ‘unchanging.’” Not a very good argument!
But scripture dose not change. The word of God is unchanging and eternally true. That is the ultimate, authoritative source of LDS theology and doctrine.
This corresponds with the Catholic position on revelation as well.
Such a book could not “add” anything to what the Lord has already revealed in scripture; neither could it “express” it any more correctly and accurately. It would always be something less perfect than the word of God itself, and you would always be able to discover flaws in it.
If the scriptures were meant as manuals of doctrine, then you would be right. But since the purpose of scriptures is not to be a manual of doctrine, it is possible for man to present doctrine in a unified and systematized manner, because scriptures do not attempt to do this. It would be less perfect inasmuch as it was targeted to a specific time and audience, whereas scriptures are timeless. However, it would greatly alleviate the problem of wondering what your faith actually teaches.
 
With all due respect, debating with a Mormon is impossible because there is no one way to get a grasp on all the doctrine he believes. And, if he finds a certain doctrine inconvenient, who’s to say he can’t just ignore it? After all, he has no catechisms or official councils like the Catholics do. I find the alternative of having to ask a Mormon, in totality, what are all the doctrines you believe to be a bit much before any discussion/debate. 🙂

-Rob

P.S. Until you make a Mormon catechism, I’ll have to be going to non-Mormon books to get summaries of Mormon belief-- and that’s hardly an ideal situation! I’m not going to sit down and read your scriptures (e.g, book of Mormon, etc.) just so I can try to understand what you guys believe, because I’m not a Mormon, I’m a Catholic-- I’m not going to extract Mormon doctrine from your scriptures. So, if the only people who will write summaries/catechisms of Mormon belief are non-Mormons, then I’m only going to be getting biased summaries of your faith.

However, I’ve found the CCC to be very helpful-- anytime I see someone misrepresenting the Church, all I have to say is, don’t take those non-Catholic sources, just refer to the Catechism here-- it’s simple, it’s easy, it’s all in one place. Look things up topically. 🙂 Do a search. Knock yourself out! 😃
 
Isn’t D&C a type of Catechism? It holds the doctrines of the Church.
Yes and no. There are many contradictions to be found even within the D&C. Take, for example, Section 19 where Christ speaks of decending below all. Contrast this with Section 138 which is the revelation of then President Joseph F. Smith discussing how Christ never actually physically came into contact with the ‘spirits in prison’ but rather sent down missionary figures to preach to them.

I would rather say that the D&C represents a working church history and shows a slow development of more ‘orthodox’ (and I use this term rather loosely) LDS views.
 
As far as ‘creeds’ go, the LDS Articles of Faith are just as much a creed as any other.
 
With all due respect, debating with a Mormon is impossible because there is no one way to get a grasp on all the doctrine he believes. And, if he finds a certain doctrine inconvenient, who’s to say he can’t just ignore it? After all, he has no catechisms or official councils like the Catholics do. I find the alternative of having to ask a Mormon, in totality, what are all the doctrines you believe to be a bit much before any discussion/debate. 🙂

-Rob
Rob - I’m a former Mormon and ‘graduated’ from the CES (church educational system) w/ a 4-year diploma. I was born Catholic but converted to Mormonism when I was in grad school. My wife and I were faithful temple-worthy Mormons for +5 years, before coming back home to the truth 2 years ago.

Why I mention the Institute/CES program is this: The training and topics that were discussed in these classes are not what the missionaries teach in their 6 cookie-cutter discussions. The doctrines were quite bizarre.

Back to the OP, most Mormons own a copy of “Mormon Doctrine” by Bruce R. McConkie, however whenever someone outside of the faith criticizes the work, they write it off as mere opinion. You just can’t have it both ways.
 
Rob - I’m a former Mormon and ‘graduated’ from the CES (church educational system) w/ a 4-year diploma. I was born Catholic but converted to Mormonism when I was in grad school. My wife and I were faithful temple-worthy Mormons for +5 years, before coming back home to the truth 2 years ago.

Why I mention the Institute/CES program is this: The training and topics that were discussed in these classes are not what the missionaries teach in their 6 cookie-cutter discussions. The doctrines were quite bizarre.

Back to the OP, most Mormons own a copy of “Mormon Doctrine” by Bruce R. McConkie, however whenever someone outside of the faith criticizes the work, they write it off as mere opinion. You just can’t have it both ways.
I understand. Officially printing one’s doctrine, unequivocally, leaves one wide open to criticism. The plain acknowledgment of doctrine is the strongest and weakest point of a catechism, all at once.

By saying, “refer to the scriptures” one is being ambiguous-- but what do the scriptures mean?

Congratulations on your reversion. 🙂

-Rob
 
Your’s is the faith that changed its mind about black people being evil. Good that they changed, but it indicates the falsehood of the faith at its foundation.
We never claimed that black people were evil. We used to have black members of the Church before the priesthood was given to them. Why would we have black members of the Church (and why would they want to join our Church) if we thought that they were evil?

zerinus
 
the D&C changed too.
Not only that, there are so many conflicting and contrasting versions of the D&C. Many of the distinct doctrines that define the LDS church weren’t approved until 1876. One only needs to look at the Book of Commandments (1835) and the RLDS/Community of Christ version of the D&C to see this.
 
Congratulations on your reversion. 🙂

-Rob
Thanks! Not to divert too far afield from the OP, my ‘revision’ took place when I was the Ward Mission Leader! The missionaries tracked into a real nice divorced (his wife up and left him) postman who was a lax Catholic. I started to meet with him to answer his questions. His understanding of Catholicism was amazing. It really forced me to re-investigate the issues >> which lead to the conclusion that if I had properly understood Catholicism and Its teachings I would have never have joined the LDS church in the first place. Thankfully after a year of prayer and discussion, my wife and I left Mormonism for good and returned home. (This is, of course, the very short version, but I’d be more than happy to chat with you - or anyone else! - about this in more detail).

God bless
 
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