Why no OT readings at EF?

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What things from the fifties were bad?

The mention of St Michel’s name
Kneeling and recieving Him on the tongue - The Latin tradtion.

Weren’t many of these things - veils, chant, priests facing the Lord not the people etc - Apostolic Tradtions?

Why change good traditions that direct us to God?
Why paraphrase the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into English?
Do you acknowledge that the OF is a valid expression of the Mass?
People could buy Missals with the vernacular (eg English) next to the Latin, so they knew what was being sung/prayed and thus could understand it if they were able.
Do you have a source to tell us how popular these were? Their existence proves just that, they existed. It doesn’t mean that their use was widespread.
I have a few Catholic translations from the Greek and Hebrew 1900-1960 and they are more accurate than the modern Catholic paraphrases in my opinion.
And that’s why it’s being retranslated and the new missal is coming out next year.
The notes are informative, especially when talking about specific Greek words, or customs etc, without this nonsense about Matthew never writing the Gosepel of Matthew, Mary never saying the Mangnificat etc.
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. That’s the educational discipline of Bible scholarship.
I have a Catholic Action Bible from the 50s with a note on indulgences for reading scripture, prayers before reading scripture, other commons prayers, pics for the Rosary, Mass, concordance, doctrinal dictionary, Lectionary readings listed etc, etc.
And that proves…? That doesn’t prove how widespread their use was.
 
Do you acknowledge that the OF is a valid expression of the Mass?
Yep!
Do you have a source to tell us how popular these were? Their existence proves just that, they existed. It doesn’t mean that their use was widespread.
I’m not sure there ever was a poll or whatever taken but my Gran and those of her generation would have the English translation with the Latin at Mass and follow along. Various publishers would print them. Even now if I go to an EF there is an order of Mass book given and a sheet with the propers.
And that’s why it’s being retranslated and the new missal is coming out next year.
Yet why paraphrase the Mass in the first place?
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. That’s the educational discipline of Bible scholarship.
You spoke of not being able to understand the Latin. Well if one is reading the scriptures at home and are told in the notes that Matthew never wrote the Gosepel of Matthew, that Mary never said the Mangnificat etc, or if a word is not adequately translated, how does that help one’s understanding. At the EF you will hear that Mary is full of grace. In OZ, UK, Ireland etc, at the OF you will hear that she is favoured. A big difference.
And that proves…? That doesn’t prove how widespread their use was.
Why go to all the trouble if no one is going to read?

There were about 5 Catholic translations into English (WVSS, K-L, Spencer, ConVersion, Knox) of the NT 1900-Vat II and about four after (JB, NAB, CCB, SPNT excluding updates).

Do you have figures that show Bible reading amonst Catholics has increased?
 
That wasn’t actually aimed at anyone. It was just a general observation that “things becoming too Protestant” seems to be a common criticism of post-VII stuff.
Agreed. But that doesn’t mean that such a criticism is suddenly without merit. There is much in the NO that does not reflect a Catholic(Western, Eastern or Oriental) perspective, yet does find an analogue in Protestantism. This complaint may be over-used, but it is not inaccurate about certain things.
That wasn’t what I was arguing about. I was just saying that the early Church felt the OT was worthy of being read at the Mass.
That’s not in dispute. The OT is scripture and therefore intrinsically worthy. The question is whether the Church was justified in its decision to remove it from the liturgy, and what that decision means for us today.
I highly doubt that that was the reason. The OT always points towards the NT and the coming of Christ.
They removed the readings for a reason. Whatever those reasons may have been they wouldn’t remove them if they thought they were necessary, right? So obviously they thought the OT wasn’t crucial to the liturgy. Agree or disagree, the churches more or less completely removed the OT readings - that’s just a fact.
We can’t just freeze the Church at a certain point though. That is why we have had certain schisms in the past. The Oriental Orthodox froze everything to the mid-5th century, the Orthodox to somewhere around the turn of the 2nd millennia (whenever it was that they separated), and then you have the traditionalists that want to freeze everything in the 50s.
I agree with you that it’s undesirable to freeze in the past. But you fail to distinguish between legitimate, organic development and radical change. There is an internal coherence in all of the Church’s liturgical traditions, and they cannot simply be ignored. You need to learn the history of the Latin rites, because nobody who understands our Latin history can claim the developments of the post-conciliar age reflect that tradition in any substantial or meaningful way.

It’s like being served steak every day of your life and suddenly being served spam, and when you object to the quality of the spam the cook tells you steak is old-fashioned, and now we’re eating spam, because spam is the future. It’s ridiculous. So is any claim that we should embrace the post-conciliar liturgical reforms. They had nothing to do with V2, and they have nothing to do with the Latin church.

These comments also show a profound ignorance of the Eastern and Oriental traditions, but I’m not an Eastern or Oriental Catholic, so I won’t pretend to speak for them.
When the readings were in Latin anyways (as with pre-VII Masses), it didn’t really matter because the majority of the people couldn’t understand it anyways (and back then people didn’t really read the Bible as much).
Quite frankly I find this entire comment condescending, not only to my own parish, but also to(seriously) almost every Latin Catholic who has ever lived, from about Pope St. Gregory’s pontificate to Paul VI. I mean, really, don’t you find it absurd to dismiss 1500 years of your own church’s tradition in such a manner?

And anyways, the readings were always said again, in the vernacular, as they are now. My fellow parishioners can follow along with the missal just fine. It takes them a little while to get adjusted, but once they do it’s easy.

And people didn’t read the bible as much back then? No, they didn’t, because they were often illiterate. But at least since the advent of the printing press and its associated growth in literacy Catholics have been not only as literate in the Bible as they are now, but moreso, all without the need for extra readings to be added to the Mass. That’s ~500 years of ever-growing Biblical literacy.
 
Do you acknowledge that the OF is a valid expression of the Mass?
I hear this often w/r/t the traditional Mass, but I find it baffling. Validity is the bare minimum for a liturgy. Without validity it is literally worthless, it is literally play-acting the Divine Mysteries. But validity is not the basis of whether a liturgy is good, but simply whether it’s a liturgy at all.
Do you have a source to tell us how popular these were? Their existence proves just that, they existed. It doesn’t mean that their use was widespread.
And that’s why it’s being retranslated and the new missal is coming out next year.
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. That’s the educational discipline of Bible scholarship.
And that proves…? That doesn’t prove how widespread their use was.
You must really think your ancestors were dumb.
 
AJV has ably provided the history I would have sketched in answer to the OP’s question and the rather ill-informed fuming against the EF; namely, the elimination of the OT reading is a late antique development held in common with almost every other Christian church. We don’t know exactly why they were dropped, but we can tell this much: it is not a “deficiency” peculiar to the Roman Rite. One could, then, turn the question back on the detractors of the practice. If nearly all the Christian world in its diverse expressions persevered in a millennium and a half of agreement that the nature of the Eucharistic Liturgy does not require a reading from the OT, how is it that the liturgists of the 20th century managed to convince the world’s Latins that 1) the Mass is one of our prime loci for the study of Scripture and 2) centuries of Catholics have been remiss for not including the OT on their Eucharistic syllabi?

I happen to be one of those who do not believe the OF lectionary has offered dramatic improvement over the EF. For starters, there are the points adduced above that
  1. The new lectionary simply provides too much to take in in one Mass;
  2. The one-year cycle provides greater scriptual anchors to feasts and seasons, as opposed to hearing the same reading only every third year. It’s already hard enough to form that anchor with just a one-year cycle.
To that I would add that
3) The readings are, *pace *LilyM, not synchronized for most Sundays, let alone weekdays, and thus preachers have to make hard choices. They can stretch the texts beyond what they were meant to bear in order to integrate all three, or they can ignore one reading/theme in favor of another. Thus preaching does not in fact benefit from the expansion of lectoins.
4) The OF lectionary overturns a cycle with roughly a millennium of fixed use, for reasons that have yet to be proven justified.

The last is the kicker. As I’ve said, everyone suddenly realized that we “needed” both the OT and more extended readings in the Mass, but the same everyone made that realization on the assumption that the readings are meant not only didactically but didactically in a privileged sense - the Liturgy of the Word as a sort of Sunday School. This may be true. The earliest accounts of the liturgy, such as those of Justin or the great catechists, certainly do suggest that the readings at that point were meant to expose the people to the sacred writings and teach them therefrom. But by the time we get to the actual creation of the lectionaries in roughly the 6th century, the game has changed. Some modern Byzantines claim that their liturgy as it took shape at this time and continues to the present employs the readings doxologically, much as the Psalms of the Office are sometimes viewed as our prayer to God. Whatever the readings of the medieval Roman Rite were, and they may have been this, readings in Latin versus Deum and without an integrated homily most certainly were not understood as a didactic moment.

So the question everyone needs to ask in the debate over the lectionaries is “Why are we reading the lections to begin with?” We can’t know which lectionary is doing a better job of accomplishing the aims of the Roman Rite until we establish what those aims are. This is an ecclesial project, because I propose that none of us really have an answer to that right now. We worked off of assumptions, and still have yet to ask the question so that we can do the research to settle it. As is, the two lectionaries are, I would suggest, somewhat incomparable because they are trying to do two different things. It’s like faulting a doctor for not clearing up your headaches when he has in fact been trying to improve your digestion, or vice versa.
So…in short…you don’t like the Catholic Mass as approved by Pope Paul VI? Just curious.
 
So…in short…you don’t like the Catholic Mass as approved by Pope Paul VI? Just curious.
Well, in short, you don’t like the Catholic Mass as approved by Bl. Pope John XXIII; at least, that’s what I’ve gleaned from a couple of your posts.
 
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