Why no reformation in Eastern Churches

[phil19034]

I wonder how you view a person who is in a “state of grace” by never committing any mortal sins but doesn’t care all that much otherwise - do they go to heaven too?

That’s up to God. However, I don’t really know if it’s truly possible for a person who really doesn’t care to be in a state of Grace. I might be wrong, but that seems to be a contradiction.

In regards to what you posted about St Thomas Aquinas - the merit that he talks about is NOT applied to a person in order to be saved. Those merits can only be applied to those who are already saved but in Purgatory. Or applied graces to generally help those on Earth with issues. For example, miracles credited to Saintly intercessions.

But those graces are NOT applied to help someone in order to be saved.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As if the “state of grace” is their admission in, their fare - the whole idea is foreign to us. I wonder how you view a person who is in a “state of grace” by never committing any mortal sins but doesn’t care all that much otherwise - do they go to heaven too?

They go to Purgatory. They didn’t commit any mortal sins, which means they are not damned, but they need to be greatly perfected in their love of God and neighbor. That’s what Purgatory is for. They stay in there until they’ve been perfected enough for Heaven.

Please note that Purgatory is for people who God has already determined are saved. It has nothing to do with getting saved. If you go to Purgatory then eventually you WILL end up in Heaven.

 

[ReaderT]

Yes, and I would understand that within the context of Col. 1:24…St. Paul speaks of his own sufferings making up for what is “lacking” in the afflictions of Christ. That’s Scripture. Of course, fundamentally, nothing is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. Likewise, nothing is lacking in the merits of Christ, which are freely given to us. It is in a secondary, derivative sense that we who are “in Christ”, who have been given the “power” to be sons of God (Jn 1:12), are said to merit by cooperating with God’s work.
The article I posted quotes an Orthodox account of the prayers of St. Basil making up for what was lacking in someone else’s works…take a look.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree - it seems we both fit Aquinas’ work into very different paradigms. I’m no expert on Medieval Philosophy, so maybe here’s a good place to stop.

However, I don’t really know if it’s truly possible for a person who really doesn’t care to be in a state of Grace. I might be wrong, but that seems to be a contradiction.

I believe I have, but I don’t know for sure either. We’ll leave it at that

 

[dvdjs]

Of course I believe it’s fine but that’s not at issue here

Actually it is is quite on point here. Beyond their death and glorification, the Saints continually bequeath a legacy that is of benefit to successive faithful in their spiritual journey.

 

[George720]

In 1600 the patriarch of Moscow instituted a series of liturgical reforms. This led to a resistance that gave rise to a group known as the Old Believers.

I thought they emerged under the excesses of Tsar Peter the Notzo-Great!

geo

 

[George720]

Beyond their death and glorification, the Saints continually bequeath a legacy that is of benefit to successive faithful in their spiritual journey.

They intercede efficaciously to God for those who pray them to do so…
And the prayer of the righteous availeth much, no question…
But an excess of merit?
That can be transferred and appropriated and redistributed?
And was abused by being sold so long ago?

Of course, the contrast of the so-called aerial tollhouses and purgatory is rather stark… Yet both reflect that fact that what we do here and now in our prayers for the reposed is still efficacious for them…

Toll houses are demonic principalities through which we must pass in our heavenward ascent after death, and our repentance while on earth is the “toll” - eg Are we still laden with the temptation, when our free will no longer avails, and if yes, we cannot pass, for our unreported sins will affirm the demonic principality’s claim on your soul… Yet prayers avail much… So the Church prays for us in this journey, and our angels advocate, and the Saints pray…

The idea of purgatory as a place of the purgation of our unrepented sins by means of the suffering of temporal punishment after death is very foreign to Christianity of the first thousand years…

All of which are good issues for the Patriarchs to work through!

geo

 

[dochawk]

I thought they emerged under the excesses of Tsar Peter the Notzo-Great!

Whatever Peter’s flaws or virtues, the old Believers responded to the Nikonian reforms, not Peter.

 

[George720]

Whatever Peter’s flaws or virtues, the old Believers responded to the Nikonian reforms, not Peter.

Another theory of mine wrecked on the rocks of reality!

I thought they were more recently emergent…

Thank-you…

geo

 

[dochawk]

" Till human voices wake us , and we drown" . . .

It’s kind of fascinating how long they’ve lasted, and what that might mean with regard to SSPX . . .

hawk, stunned to be quoting TS Eliot . . . [which he’s also done in a court hearing a few months ago . . .]

 

[dvdjs]

They intercede efficaciously to God for those who pray them to do so…
And the prayer of the righteous availeth much, no question…
But an excess of merit?

It is not only the present prayer that availeth much. It it the legacy that they have left behind. That legacy endures and provides great blessings long beyond the death and glorification of saints.

The manner of binding and loosing, of granting belssings, dispensation and economy has a long history, much of which could be a point of contention. What is the value of such contention?

I don’t think that the idea of areila toll houses has much traction in Eastern Christianity. While some specific ideas about purgatory arose in medieval times, the basic question about the fate of souls of the departed as they await the general resurrection and their purification to enter into the presence of God has actually been a part fo Chrtistian thinking from early time - and a part of human thinking for pre-Christian times.

 

[George720]

I don’t think that the idea of areila toll houses has much traction in Eastern Christianity.

areila ???

You are doubtless correct - It is but a theologoumenon referred to by some saints - Some major saints, I should add… Yet not a developed doctrine…

Yet I remember St. John of ShangHai and San Francisco being asked about the demons found in them, and his reply: “Have you ever seen one?” And he changed the subject…

He was not shaming the questioner through denying its existence as a matter of the absence of first-hand experience by the questioner… Instead it was Vladika John affirming their existence by having himself seen one first hand… And the putrid engulfing dark presence they seek to enter us into that is themselves…

Hence, you see, it is not God’s punishment we need to fear, but our vulnerability through lack of repentance to these “stages of passage” through demonic attraction by sin’s desires that we have failed to overcome in our lives… After death we pass through these stages in our ascent toward God, and we get as high as our lives lived will permit, and then we get snagged and engulfed, and we need the prayers of those on earth, and not even just prayers but acts of penance and charity in behalf of our beloved ones already reposed… That they be freed from demonic assault and capture…

God is not our enemy, you see…

But these demonic principalities sure are…

geo