Why non catholics and Sola Scripturalist have a veiled Jesus from scripture;

[Gabriel_of_12]

After Jesus resurrected from the dead, his first action recorded in the Gospel of Luke was the Mass. Where Jesus performs the Liturgy of Word followed by the Liturgy of His Eucharist. Luke 24:25-35

Jesus is recognized by his disciples when Jesus appears to them on the way to Emmaus, when Jesus opened the scriptures to them (yet their hearts burned from hearing the Word). Although these disciples could not see Jesus by the Word of God alone, or the revelation Jesus revealed of himself from all the scriptures, these failed to recognize Jesus in their presence.

Luke 24:25
And he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
26
Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer 8 these things and enter into his glory?”
27
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.

It is not until Jesus breaks bread with his disciples in his Eucharist (body and blood) that they finally recognize Jesus immediately.

Luke 24:So he went in to stay with them.
30
And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him,…
32
Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”
34… “The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”
35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.

This ancient Liturgy practiced today in the Catholic church practice both the liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Mass, when the “Celebrant” Bishop or Priest Lifts up the Eucharist (body and blood of Jesus Christ) before all to see;

John 8: 28 So Jesus said (to them), "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM,…

John 12: 32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

**? How does a non catholic or Sola Scripturalist experience the risen Jesus Christ?, **
When in the many biblical accounts of the " breaking of bread" that followed the Liturgy of the Word, Jesus always becomes fully present ( in his Eucharist) to all his believers in his mystical body of the Catholic Church since the Last Supper and the resurrection to today.

Hebrews 10: 19 Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,”

Does this prophecy of Malachi come to fulfillment in our time among the non catholics and sola scripturalist?

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
12
But you behave profanely toward me by thinking the LORD’S table and its offering may be polluted, and its food slighted.

any comments are welcomed

 

[NDfan]

After Jesus resurrected from the dead, his first action recorded in the Gospel of Luke was the Mass. Where Jesus performs the Liturgy of Word followed by the Liturgy of His Eucharist. Luke 24:25-35

Jesus is recognized by his disciples when Jesus appears to them on the way to Emmaus, when Jesus opened the scriptures to them (yet their hearts burned from hearing the Word). Although these disciples could not see Jesus by the Word of God alone, or the revelation Jesus revealed of himself from all the scriptures, these failed to recognize Jesus in their presence.

Luke 24:25
And he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
26
Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer 8 these things and enter into his glory?”
27
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.

It is not until Jesus breaks bread with his disciples in his Eucharist (body and blood) that they finally recognize Jesus immediately.

Luke 24:So he went in to stay with them.
30
And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him,…
32
Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”
34… “The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”
35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.

This ancient Liturgy practiced today in the Catholic church practice both the liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Mass, when the “Celebrant” Bishop or Priest Lifts up the Eucharist (body and blood of Jesus Christ) before all to see;

John 8: 28 So Jesus said (to them), "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM,…

John 12: 32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

**? How does a non catholic or Sola Scripturalist experience the risen Jesus Christ?, **
When in the many biblical accounts of the " breaking of bread" that followed the Liturgy of the Word, Jesus always becomes fully present ( in his Eucharist) to all his believers in his mystical body of the Catholic Church since the Last Supper and the resurrection to today.

Hebrews 10: 19 Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,”

Does this prophecy of Malachi come to fulfillment in our time among the non catholics and sola scripturalist?

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
12
But you behave profanely toward me by thinking the LORD’S table and its offering may be polluted, and its food slighted.

any comments are welcomed

Hello Gabriel. Hope all is well with you and your family.

The only comment I would add is that scripture in know way conveys a message that when Christ broke bread in the company of HIS disciples either before or after the resurrection they (meaning the disciples) saw it as Jesus’ body and blood. You’re inferring a message that the disciples on the road to Emmaus recognized Jesus for who HE was because the bread literally became Jesus. Christ was standing in front of them and HE did not allow them to recognize HIM until after HE broke the bread symbolizing HIS broken body offered as a sacrifice for our sins. When I partake in the Lord’s supper I have the same recall when I see the bread and wine. I see Christ’s broken body and blood and proclaim HIS death as HE commanded.

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello Gabriel. Hope all is well with you and your family.

The only comment I would add is that scripture in know way conveys a message that when Christ broke bread in the company of HIS disciples either before or after the resurrection they (meaning the disciples) saw it as Jesus’ body and blood.

Gabriel of 12;
I am not meaning to convey my message, only what the eyewitnesses record from the Gospels, here is an example from Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, **“Take and eat; this is my body.” **27
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, **"Drink from it, all of you,
28
for this is my blood **of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

Here is St. Paul asking you and the Corinthians what they think is the body and blood of Christ?
1Cor.10;16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

So Jesus believes his body and blood to be symbolic, and Paul believes the bread and cup of blessing is not really Jesus, and the disciples on the road to Emmaus never really saw Jesus in the breaking of the bread?

NDfan;
You’re inferring a message that the disciples on the road to Emmaus recognized Jesus for who HE was because the bread literally became Jesus.

Gabriel of 12;
The disciples give witness to this fact, as well as Paul and the other Gospel writers, for the bread and cup of blessing to be the body and blood of Jesus, there is no symbolic language here; So there is nothing to inferr.

NDfan;
Christ was standing in front of them and HE did not allow them to recognize HIM until after HE broke the bread symbolizing HIS broken body offered as a sacrifice for our sins.

Gabriel of 12;
Now who is inferring? Jesus was not standing, he was at table with them when he broke the bread and gave it to them. It is here when their eyes are open during the Eucharist not the burning of hearts from hearing the biblical interpreations from Jesus, and they came to recognize Jesus in the breaking of bread, not the Word only. But here is the curious factor; upon recognizing Jesus in the breaking of the bread Jesus vanishes from their sight; Where did Jesus symbolically go? IF Jesus was symbolically present to them?

NDfan;
When I partake in the Lord’s supper I have the same recall when I see the bread and wine. I see Christ’s broken body and blood and proclaim HIS death as HE commanded.

Gabriel of 12;
You confessed that Jesus is symbolically present in the bread, So how can you proclaim his death, without a body and blood to claim it for? Is your death proclamation only symbolic also? How do you account for such a contradiction of faith, without a literal body to proclaim? Jesus also commanded to “eat his flesh and drink his blood” (John 6:53…).

This is the point I hope to disclose here, why non catholics and Sola Scrpturalists have a veiled Jesus by proclaiming a symbolic Jesus present, by a symbolic interpretation of scriptural teaching. While Catholics recieve both the Word of God in the Liturgy, that introduces Jesus, who becomes present both body, blood, soul and divinity in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

In my marriage supper of the Lamb, their is no symbolic Jesus, he is truly present to me, to all of my senses and humanity down to my soul which recieves this heavenly bread for my journey here on earth. I not only hear the Word of God, I also tasted that the Lord is good;

Good to hear from you NDfan; Peace be with you

 

[Mark77]

**Read John 6 in its entirety. Jesus is not symbolically present, He is present fully, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as His Church has taught from day one.
**
There is only one place in all of Sacred Scripture where Jesus has any disciples walk away, John 6:66 (666???). If Jesus was speaking in symbolic terms, He would have explained that to prevent the disciples from leaving Him, but He didn’t.

Even Martin Luther, the cause of the Heresy we call the “Reformation” (Deformation would be more accurate!) believed in the Real Presence;

“**Martin Luther himself confirms that the early Church unanimously taught the Real Presence: 'of all fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as ‘it is simply bread and wine’ or ‘Christ’s body and blood are not present.’…Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles; but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side” *Luther’s Works/*I] (St Louis Mo: Concordia Publishing 1961), vol 37, 54.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark**

 

[JonNC]

? How does a non catholic or Sola Scripturalist experience the risen Jesus Christ?,
When in the many biblical accounts of the " breaking of bread" that followed the Liturgy of the Word, Jesus always becomes fully present ( in his Eucharist) to all his believers in his mystical body of the Catholic Church since the Last Supper and the resurrection to today.

Hebrews 10: 19 Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,”

Yes. In my Lutheran mass and Eucharist, I receive the same experience as you do in your Catholic mass and Eucharist. May you be as blessed by yours as I am by mine, and may the day come soon when we can share it at the same altar - yours or mine.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

**Read John 6 in its entirety. Jesus is not symbolically present, He is present fully, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as His Church has taught from day one.
**
There is only one place in all of Sacred Scripture where Jesus has any disciples walk away, John 6:66 (666???). If Jesus was speaking in symbolic terms, He would have explained that to prevent the disciples from leaving Him, but He didn’t.

Even Martin Luther, the cause of the Heresy we call the “Reformation” (Deformation would be more accurate!) believed in the Real Presence;

“**Martin Luther himself confirms that the early Church unanimously taught the Real Presence: 'of all fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as ‘it is simply bread and wine’ or ‘Christ’s body and blood are not present.’…Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles; but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side” *Luther’s Works/***I] (St Louis Mo: Concordia Publishing 1961), vol 37, 54.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

So, verbally kick him around first, then use his words to prove your POV. I love it. Luther’s worthy of a good kick even when he’s right.
I’m just happy that Catholic leaders in the Vatican and the USCCB don’t use this approach in their dialogue with Lutherans.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes. In my Lutheran mass and Eucharist, I receive the same experience as you do in your Catholic mass and Eucharist. May you be as blessed by yours as I am by mine, and may the day come soon when we can share it at the same altar - yours or mine.

Jon

That is beautiful JonNC; I am hoping to reveal this one subject about our salvation; Where as non catholics and Sola Scripturalists salvation is hoped for; In the Catholic Church it is announced as already accomplished. This is lived out in the Catholic Mass in both the Liturgy of Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

What non catholics and Sola Scripturalists fail to see is; that Jesus fulfilled all the Old Covenant rituals of sacrifices and meals. This God commanded from the Law to remain perpetually, and to do the “Passover” in rememberance. This is perpetually fulfilled in Jesus Christ in the Catholic Mass. These Old Covenant laws did not end, they are fulfilled in Jesus and continue “A New” in the New Covenant in the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ. God does not Change, Jesus made all things new. When Jesus fulfilled these perpetual old Covenant rituals in himself, Jesus repeats again in the New Covenant “Do this is Remberance of Me”. God’s word did not end, Jesus fulfilled God’s Word, and has the power to renew it in his body, blood. To which we are commanded by Jesus himself to “eat my body and drink my blood in order to have eternal life”.

What is interesting is the Catholic church does not have a monopoly on the Eucharist, She has been commissioned and commanded from her apostolic authority to conduct this Eucharistic liturgy, and She is to give the bread of heaven to all peoples in every age. Why would non catholics and Sola Scripturalists refuse this heavenly blessing? It is here that fundamentally seperate our communions. The Word of God only, from both Word of God and his body and blood.

Peace be with you

 

[COLOS]

Jesus is recognized by his disciples when Jesus appears to them on the way to Emmaus, when Jesus opened the scriptures to them (yet their hearts burned from hearing the Word). ** Although these disciples could not see Jesus by the Word of God alone, or the revelation Jesus revealed of himself from all the scriptures, these failed to recognize Jesus in their presence.**

Things are very different now that I’m Catholic. I think other converts would agree. Prior to converting, there was always something missing. I never had the power to hold onto the Christian life…until now. Even now when I fall I am quickly restored. I’ve never in my life experienced faith like the faith God has given us in His Church.

The road to Emmaus is one of my very favorite events. I love the thought of the Lord God Himself teaching us. He opened the scriptures to them. Don’t you think that all of the shadows and types were revealed to them? Their hearts burned! When was the last time your heart burned when you heard someone teach truth? …and they still didn’t recognize who was standing there talking to them.

He revealed Himself in the breaking of bread. This statement would not have penetrated my mind prior to being given the grace to study and know the things of God. We can shout this all day long and unless those who hear us are adequately prepared nothing we say will penetrate their minds. They can know the arguments forward and backward and still not truly know what we are saying. I’ve been on both sides of the fence. It’s a scary thing to think that you know the Lord God and then one day wake up and realize that you never really knew Him at all, or at least that what you thought you knew was really only a small piece of the whole truth. It’s a heavy thing to hear familiar words in a totally new light and find meaning in them that you never knew before.

So what is the answer? Keep talking, I suppose. What is most important is to live a holy life, I think. Our world is getting into such a state of madness that the only argument left to us is to live truly holy lives that are beyond the reach of those who haven’t received the power to live. Only then will we draw people to the Church and into complete Communion with the Lord, I think. They will wonder how we live such lives. They will stand in awe of true humility, willingness to suffer for others, and the bearing of completely Christ-like natures. Such can only be received through Communion with God, yes?

Maybe as the world continues its decline into absolute madness the Lord will hold us up for all to see. We will suffer horribly…willingly, yes, but horribly. Through Grace we will accept every pain, every bit of suffering, and turn to unite ourselves and our sufferings completely with the sacrifice of the Lord God on Calvary. By Grace we will pick up our crosses in plain sight of all humankind and walk painfully toward the Lord, every step offered for the salvation of souls. I wonder how close we are to the start of that time?

Now is the time when we need great, visible Saints, isn’t it? If not now, when?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Things are very different now that I’m Catholic. I think other converts would agree. Prior to converting, there was always something missing. I never had the power to hold onto the Christian life…until now. Even now when I fall I am quickly restored. I’ve never in my life experienced faith like the faith God has given us in His Church.

The road to Emmaus is one of my very favorite events. I love the thought of the Lord God Himself teaching us. He opened the scriptures to them. Don’t you think that all of the shadows and types were revealed to them? Their hearts burned! When was the last time your heart burned when you heard someone teach truth? …and they still didn’t recognize who was standing there talking to them.

He revealed Himself in the breaking of bread. This statement would not have penetrated my mind prior to being given the grace to study and know the things of God. We can shout this all day long and unless those who hear us are adequately prepared nothing we say will penetrate their minds. They can know the arguments forward and backward and still not truly know what we are saying. I’ve been on both sides of the fence. It’s a scary thing to think that you know the Lord God and then one day wake up and realize that you never really knew Him at all, or at least that what you thought you knew was really only a small piece of the whole truth. It’s a heavy thing to hear familiar words in a totally new light and find meaning in them that you never knew before.

So what is the answer? Keep talking, I suppose. What is most important is to live a holy life, I think. Our world is getting into such a state of madness that the only argument left to us is to live truly holy lives that are beyond the reach of those who haven’t received the power to live. Only then will we draw people to the Church and into complete Communion with the Lord, I think. They will wonder how we live such lives. They will stand in awe of true humility, willingness to suffer for others, and the bearing of completely Christ-like natures. Such can only be received through Communion with God, yes?

Maybe as the world continues its decline into absolute madness the Lord will hold us up for all to see. We will suffer horribly…willingly, yes, but horribly. Through Grace we will accept every pain, every bit of suffering, and turn to unite ourselves and our sufferings completely with the sacrifice of the Lord God on Calvary. By Grace we will pick up our crosses in plain sight of all humankind and walk painfully toward the Lord, every step offered for the salvation of souls. I wonder how close we are to the start of that time?

Now is the time when we need great, visible Saints, isn’t it? If not now, when?

Gabriel of 12;
Thank you Colos, you summed up this thread in your wonderful testimony of Truth. I pray that the one soul God is calling home will read your testimony here. Thank you for sharing here, I am glad you did, God bless you;

One thing I would like to mention about the pain and suffering in the mystical body of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, by her Saints and Martyrs considered these pains and sufferings “All Joy” unto the Lord, we began the start of that time of which you speak of since the resurrection of Jesus. In the Communion of Saints, where there is no more death, for death has lost its sting. To live in communion with our heavenly Father in heaven along with the body of Jesus Christ which gives us eternal life. What was corruptible God has made incorruptible.

Yes I believe Jesus taught the disciples how to interpret scripture. The New Testament had not been written yet, but what Jesus taught these disciples from their writings reveal what was hidden in the Old Testament, gets revealed in the New Testament. These teachings were given to the Catholic church as St. Paul describes through “Sacred Tradition” handed down to us. But you said it beautifully.

Peace be with you

 

[COLOS]

Gabriel of 12;
Thank you Colos, you summed up this thread in your wonderful testimony of Truth. I pray that the one soul God is calling home will read your testimony here. Thank you for sharing here, I am glad you did, God bless you;

One thing I would like to mention about the pain and suffering in the mystical body of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, by her Saints and Martyrs considered these pains and sufferings “All Joy” unto the Lord, we began the start of that time of which you speak of since the resurrection of Jesus. In the Communion of Saints, where there is no more death, for death has lost its sting. To live in communion with our heavenly Father in heaven along with the body of Jesus Christ which gives us eternal life. What was corruptible God has made incorruptible.

Yes I believe Jesus taught the disciples how to interpret scripture. The New Testament had not been written yet, but what Jesus taught these disciples from their writings reveal what was hidden in the Old Testament, gets revealed in the New Testament. These teachings were given to the Catholic church as St. Paul describes through “Sacred Tradition” handed down to us. But you said it beautifully.

Peace be with you

Thank you for your kind words.

God bless you,

Andrew

 

[dcana]

That was a beautiful post and testimony, COLOS.

“What is most important is to live a holy life, I think.” I think so too. Easy to say, hard to do.

As far as the original question, doesn’t it seem very odd that these two disciples would not recognize who they were speaking with as they walked along the road and looked right at him as he “interpreted to them what referred to him[self] in all the Scriptures,” so profoundly and with such power that “their hearts were burning within them while he spoke to them on the way and opened the scriptures to them” and then would only come to recognize him when he gave them a piece of bread to eat, if it was just an ordinary piece of bread they received? More than odd, it is nonsensical. To put it a slightly different way, doesn’t it make much more sense for them to have recognized Jesus before or during or *after * the time he went through all of the Scriptures, explaining to them how they referred to himself (it must have been a long walk), and not only when he gives them a piece of food to eat? The former (God the Word Himself explaining His own Words to someone that for the past 2000 years or so He had “breathed” into the Old Testament) was an extremely “extraordinary” occurance; the latter would have been a most ordinary occurance, that is, giving someone a piece of bread to eat, even Jesus giving somebody a piece of bread to eat. It seems pretty clear to me that something else is going on here. Where else in the Scriptures does it describe Jesus taking bread, saying a blessing, breaking the bread, and giving it to somebody? Of course, the answer is at the Last Supper. And what are the very next words out of his mouth - what words does God breathe next? - THIS IS MY BODY.

Similarly, could you imagine someone pointing to a lamp and saying “this is my body” or giving someone a stick and saying “this is my foot?” I know, it sounds stupid. It sounds stupid precisely because it is stupid. You would think the person crazy. Crazy people say crazy things. So is he the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic? Is it not his body if he says it is? If not, he would be a liar - option #2. Or is he just crazy? - option #3. To those who say they believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, options #2 and #3 seem like sound choices - #1 not so much. However, they do indeed profess #1, because of the gift of faith they are given, and are then forced to dispute the meaning of the word IS. IS means IS and nothing else. It is so elementary that it’s difficult to define in a non-circular fashion, like the word the. You could say, "It is(!) the third person singular of the verb ‘to be,’ but then what does ‘to be’ mean? To be means to exist but that’s really a synonym and the subject of a thread on another forum. What possible sense could be conveyed by giving somebody a stick and then saying, “this is my foot?” I would seriously like to hear some possibilities for this from anyone who is more imaginative than I, and that includes about 95% of the general population. It makes just as much sense for somebody to say, “this is my body” while handing those at table with him a piece of bread, unless that person is the Lord God, because God can say and do whatever he pleases. He can even change bread into his own body just by saying the words and willing that it be so, as easy as he created everything ex nihilo. His own will holds the bread and the rest of the universe in existence; if he wants to change the bread into his body, what’s to stop him? He turned water into wine, multiplied 5 loaves and 2 fish into enough food to feed 5000 people, and walked on top of a body of water. If you believe those to be true, why not believe that it IS His Body if he says it is? At least be consistent. I think some people do not believe because they “take offense” (see Jn 6:61) at the idea of eating someone’s flesh and drinking their blood. And naturally so. But his words are not “natural,” they are supernatural and “spirit and life.” The one speaking is God. The body he is referring to is a very special one, the body of God-made-man, risen from the dead and forever imbued with spirit and life. The Jews could not believe his words, and consequently walked away, because they did not believe in Him who was speaking them. But St. Peter did: “LORD, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” So for those who do not believe, do not be unbelieving, but believe. Simply have faith. Simple faith. The faith that says, “I believe what you say, God, even though I do not understand it, because I believe in you who say it.” He doesn’t want things to be complicated. On the contrary, he speaks plainly to his disciples (“This is my body” “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed”) and means what he says and says what he means. Do you think he wanted for his disciples to be confused over these words and to think that they have to get a degree in New Testament Greek to be able to understand them? No way. If you want to get a degree in NT Greek, do so by all means. It can only help one more clearly see the “perspicuity” of Scripture. Rather, he wanted people to just have faith. So says St. Thomas:

"Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail;
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing,
newer rites of grace prevail;
faith for all defects supplying,
where the feeble senses fail.

con’t …

 

[dcana]

… con’t

I for one am not going to argue with God when He says that the bread is His Body and the wine is His Blood. To quote Mickey, “On judgment day, if I am mistaken in taking those words literally, and Jesus rebukes me and says, ‘Why did you misunderstand my supper?’ I will answer, ‘Lord, I was taking you at your word.’ But if Jesus meant for those words to be taken literally, and I have taken them figuratively, the only thing I could say is: ‘Lord, it was a hard saying. I trusted my reason more than your words.’ I would rather be rebuked for taking Jesus at His Word, than for not doing so.” His quote doesn’t exactly fit my argument, because I am contending that there is no other way to take these words than “literally,” but I think he makes a good point. Of course, we can only take such words as these “literally,” or, better, believe that what he says is true, if we believe that the person saying them is God. And God’s words and actions tend not to be random nonsense but are rather replete with meaning. If you want the meaning behind these words - the reason why he chose to turn bread into his Body and wine into his Blood and then commanded us to eat and drink - see: the entire Old Testament (most especially Exodus), along with the Gospel according to John and the Book of Revelation.

“The wisdom of God is foolishness to those who are perishing.”

As ncgolf said awhile back: “You want it both ways. Against the men of science who say a 6 day creation cannot be you use Genesis and say … here read this, look at what God said. Those men of science can and do say … it is obvious that God is being figurative. But to those who believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist you say … no … you misread the meaning … even though the words are quoted.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

… con’t

I for one am not going to argue with God when He says that the bread is His Body and the wine is His Blood. To quote Mickey, “On judgment day, if I am mistaken in taking those words literally, and Jesus rebukes me and says, ‘Why did you misunderstand my supper?’ I will answer, ‘Lord, I was taking you at your word.’ But if Jesus meant for those words to be taken literally, and I have taken them figuratively, the only thing I could say is: ‘Lord, it was a hard saying. I trusted my reason more than your words.’ I would rather be rebuked for taking Jesus at His Word, than for not doing so.” His quote doesn’t exactly fit my argument, because I am contending that there is no other way to take these words than “literally,” but I think he makes a good point. Of course, we can only take such words as these “literally,” or, better, believe that what he says is true, if we believe that the person saying them is God. And God’s words and actions tend not to be random nonsense but are rather replete with meaning. If you want the meaning behind these words - the reason why he chose to turn bread into his Body and wine into his Blood and then commanded us to eat and drink - see: the entire Old Testament (most especially Exodus), along with the Gospel according to John and the Book of Revelation.

“The wisdom of God is foolishness to those who are perishing.”

As ncgolf said awhile back: “You want it both ways. Against the men of science who say a 6 day creation cannot be you use Genesis and say … here read this, look at what God said. Those men of science can and do say … it is obvious that God is being figurative. But to those who believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist you say … no … you misread the meaning … even though the words are quoted.”

Gabriel of 12;
Very well said; I believe St. Paul explains his Catholic faith to the “Hebrews” in similar fashion as you so eloquently did.

Hebrews 11:1

1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen.

2 Because of it the ancients were well attested.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

For the Catholic “Walks by faith, not by sight”