Why not baptize children?

[Zakuska]

Its the KJV, and My finger missed the 9 and hit the 8.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to aelection might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Remember how 8 day old Babies got Circumcized in Jewish Law. The 8 year was chosen as the age in similitude of that. As Calvin, Welsy and Joseph Smith Showed us… days and years are sometimes messed up in the translation.

 

[Zakuska]

Also, I’m not sure what knowing good from evil has to do with entering into God’s covenant family (what baptism does for us) and removing the stain of Original Sin (also what baptism does for us).

According to Romans 4 and 5 Christ already removed the Stain of original sin from everyone unconditionally.

Rom. 4: 25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom. 5: 16
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom. 5: 18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I do completely agree that Baptism is the entry way into the Kingdom!

catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

 

[arieh0310]

Zakuska:

Its the KJV, and My finger missed the 9 and hit the 8.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to aelection might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Remember how 8 day old Babies got Circumcized in Jewish Law. The 8 year was chosen as the age in similitude of that. As Calvin, Welsy and Joseph Smith Showed us… days and years are sometimes messed up in the translation.

OK, I fail to see how Paul talking about the different callings of Jacob and Esau have any relevance to the baptism question.

Also, I have never heard that there was a confusion about days and years. Genesis 17:12 was originally written in Hebew, Luke 1:59 was originally in Greek. Are you saying that in both languages we have confusion between days and years. In Luke 2:21 it says that Jesus was named after he was circumcised (did He not have a name for 8 years?)

 

[Zakuska]

Jacob and Esau had no “original sin” becuase they had not done anything good or evil. If they had original sin how could anything be by promise?

Days and Years in scripture:

whyprophets.com/prophets/day_year.htm

Genesis 5 – the genealogies frequently say “the days of (name) were (x) years.” Days and years seem to be interchangeable.
Genesis 29:27 – Jacob served “a week” for Rachel, meaning seven years.
Exodus 20:10; Leviticus 25:3-4 – a seventh day Sabbath is paralleled by a seventh year Sabbath.
Exodus 13:10 – the annual Passover should be kept “from days to days.” Similar wording is used regarding years in Numbers 9:22, Judges 1:40, 1 Samuel 1:21, 1 Samuel 2:19, 1 Samuel 27:7 and 1 Kings 1:1. English translations often change these references to say “year” or “years.”
Numbers 14:34 – The children of Israel wander in the wilderness for forty years, to correspond to a previous forty day period.
Ezekiel 4:5-6 – This is probably the key text, since it deals specifically with predictive prophecy. Ezekiel is given a prophecy for the people, where every day is to symbolize a year.
(LDS readers should also compare JST Revelation 12:5 with KJV revelation 12:6.)

NOTE: Calvin also translated Days in Rev 12:6 as years just as JS did.

Where a “Day” Represents a “Year” in Daniel:

Daniel 1:5, 18 – the end of Daniel’s three years’ training is referred to as the end of his “days.”
Daniel 8:26 – many years in the future is described as “many days” in the future.
Daniel 9 – the “seventy weeks” prophecy, even before we see its literal fulfillment, only makes sense if a “week” is seven years. In fact, the Hebrew word for “week” is just “seven.”
In the light of the above, it seems entirely reasonable that Daniel’s “days,” when in the context of “end of the world” predictions, can be read as “years.”

Similarly, the 42 “months,” given that they equal 1260 “days,” should be seen as 42 groups of 30 years (the ancient Jewish month had 30 days). And the “time and times and dividing of a time,” since “a time” can be translated “a year,” and 3 1/2 years contain 42 months, could be treated in the same way.

 

[arieh0310]

Zakuska:

Jacob and Esau had no “original sin” becuase they had not done anything good or evil. If they had original sin how could anything be by promise?

You are confusing actual sin with original sin. You cannot “commit” original sin, it is a condition of our fallen human existence.

Where a “Day” Represents a “Year” in Daniel:

Interpreting what numbers mean in prophecy is totally different than reading the plain commandment to circumcise your male child at 8 days.

 

[tkdnick]

Zakuska:

Its the KJV, and My finger missed the 9 and hit the 8.

Sorry. Saw that after I posted mine.

 

[Zakuska]

Christ redeemed all men from original sin. Unconditionally.
So now all we are left with is personal sin. Its between us and God.

Some one asked why 8 years old. Well its in similitude of that.

Babies are blessed usuaully by 8 days old. By holding them in the circile. (Kind of like Christ did)

At 8 years old then Child come to age of accountability. And at that points there sins start countiung. Being imputed by God.

Rom. 5: 13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but asin is not imputed when there is no law.

Since an infant has no “law” cant read cant understand they need not baptism.

 

[isaac.madsen]

Another important aspect to remember about Mormonism is the fact that the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible fell into the hands of the R-LDS church and may have been changed before it was included as relevant information in our standard works. This is one reason why the KJV is the most trusted translation for the LDS church.

God bless,

Isaac Madsen

 

[Tmaque]

Zakuska:

The only thing Christ did for children under 8…

Matt 19
13 ¶ Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his ahands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Put his hand on them and blessed them.

Romans 8
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to aelection might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Hmmm, No original Sin?

Rom. 4: 25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom. 5: 16
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom. 5: 18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Christ took the Original Sin out of the way. Hmmm all men everywhere are justified before God, becuase of Christ.

Christ took ALL sin out of the way, not just original sin. But, we must be baptized(one way or another) to receive that grace.

 

[Zakuska]

Do you need to be baptized to receive the “free gift” of immortality?

Not according to Paul… it came unconditionally to all men.

To become part of the Kingdom of God… yes Baptism is necessary.

 

[Tmaque]

Zakuska:

Christ redeemed all men from original sin. Unconditionally.
So now all we are left with is personal sin. Its between us and God.

Some one asked why 8 years old. Well its in similitude of that.

Babies are blessed usuaully by 8 days old. By holding them in the circile. (Kind of like Christ did)

At 8 years old then Child come to age of accountability. And at that points there sins start countiung. Being imputed by God.

Rom. 5: 13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but asin is not imputed when there is no law.

Since an infant has no “law” cant read cant understand they need not baptism.

It’s kind of cool to make up your own doctrine to suit your pre-existing notions isn’t it? How about we stick to an authoritative source we can agree on. Where in the bible does it say anything about not baptizing babies, or that Christ’s sacrifice removed the stain of original sin?

 

[Tmaque]

Zakuska:

Do you need to be baptized to receive the “free gift” of immortality?

Not according to Paul… it came unconditionally to all men.

To become part of the Kingdom of God… yes Baptism is necessary.

What does immortality have to do with the subject at hand?

 

[majick275]

isaac.madsen:

Another important aspect to remember about Mormonism is the fact that the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible fell into the hands of the R-LDS church and may have been changed before it was included as relevant information in our standard works. This is one reason why the KJV is the most trusted translation for the LDS church.

God bless,

Isaac Madsen

Surely you don’t believe that RLDS altered it. The LDS have enough of the original manuscripts to easily show that. The reason that it isn’t used by the LDS is because the RLDS (now the community of Christ) owns the copyright to it. notice in the footnotes of LDS scriptures and in most LDs lesson manuals there are numerous quotes from it. How would that be useful if it’s accuracy was in doubt? The KJV is moderatley flawed by translation errors. I see this as a “good thing” for LDS. They beleive (articles of faith) that the Bible is only the word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. a flawed translation gives a lot of opportunity to deny anything that contradicts with LDS doctrine as an “incorrect translation”. Basically the KJV allows the LDS to pick and choose whatever they want from the Bible and discard the rest.

 

[Zakuska]

Tmaque:

It’s kind of cool to make up your own doctrine to suit your pre-existing notions isn’t it? How about we stick to an authoritative source we can agree on. Where in the bible does it say anything about not baptizing babies, or that Christ’s sacrifice removed the stain of original sin?

Better yet… where in the bible does the word “original sin” appear?

The very verse Ive shown show that Christ took Adams sin out of our way.

 

[Zakuska]

majick275:

Surely you don’t believe that RLDS altered it. The LDS have enough of the original manuscripts to easily show that. The reason that it isn’t used by the LDS is because the RLDS (now the community of Christ) owns the copyright to it. notice in the footnotes of LDS scriptures and in most LDs lesson manuals there are numerous quotes from it. How would that be useful if it’s accuracy was in doubt? The KJV is moderatley flawed by translation errors. I see this as a “good thing” for LDS. They beleive (articles of faith) that the Bible is only the word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. a flawed translation gives a lot of opportunity to deny anything that contradicts with LDS doctrine as an “incorrect translation”. Basically the KJV allows the LDS to pick and choose whatever they want from the Bible and discard the rest.

Hmmm… thats funny… I see “christians” doing the same thing every day.

 

[Zakuska]

Tmaque:

What does immortality have to do with the subject at hand?

Because the “free Gif” is immortality. Living forever and is given to all men. It Really is free. Really Rearlly.

 

[Tmaque]

Zakuska:

Better yet… where in the bible does the word “original sin” appear?

The very verse Ive shown show that Christ took Adams sin out of our way.

It’s clear from the verses you posted that we have inherited Adam’s sin. “Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned” See that word “all”, that means everyone. Not all but children, all…meaning ALL human beings.

YOU said Christ destroyed original sin. Implying that it is automatically removed from everyone. I said show me where it says that.

 

[arieh0310]

Zakuska:

Because the “free Gif” is immortality. Living forever and is given to all men. It Really is free. Really Rearlly.

Then why the heck join any church, hedonism here I come!!!

 

[Tmaque]

Zakuska:

Because the “free Gif” is immortality. Living forever and is given to all men. It Really is free. Really Rearlly.

Is living in hell for eternity a gift? Immortality is a REALITY. Living in God’s presence is the gift.

 

[Zakuska]

Not according to Paul… and Christ. Living in Gods presence is a Reward.

Heb. 5: 9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb. 10: 35
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Heb. 11: 6
6 But without afaith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Heb. 11: 26
26 Esteeming the areproach of Christ greater briches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

2 Jn. 1: 8
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Matt. 25: 21
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful aservant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the djoy of thy lord.

Matt. 25: 23
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and afaithful• servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.