Why not Consubstantiation?

[Thoughtfulone]

One thing I have sort of a hard time with is understanding why we as Catholics do not believe in CONsubstantiation as opposed to TRANsubstantiation. I mean, clearly, if a scientific test were done, we would find that the bread and the wine remain physically intact. So why do we not believe that the Eucharist is both bread and wine AND the real presence of Jesus? It seems illogical.

 

[curlycool89]

One thing I have sort of a hard time with is understanding why we as Catholics do not believe in CONsubstantiation as opposed to TRANsubstantiation. I mean, clearly, if a scientific test were done, we would find that the bread and the wine remain physically intact. So why do we not believe that the Eucharist is both bread and wine AND the real presence of Jesus? It seems illogical.

The substance (the bread and wine into Jesus) changes, the accidents (the appearance & properties of bread and wine) stay the same. It is something you have to take on faith. Hence why we respond “Amen” when the priest says “Body of Christ”; we are saying “I believe”.

 

[ljubim]

It might help your doubt to check out books and websites on Eucharistic miracles… where lab tests have been done and the Precious Body and Blood are totally the same all across the world, all across centuries. (and interesting too that the Body always is from the Sacred Heart )

 

[choy]

because Jesus said, “this is my body,” “this is my blood”

he didn’t say, “this is my body with some bread,” and “this is my blood with some wine”

 

[piejesu]

Itchy ears syndrome? I would be careful with this one.

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 2Tim 4:3,4

 

[benedictgal]

Maybe this from St. Thomas Aquinas might help the OP:

ZION, to Thy Savior sing,
to Thy Shepherd and Thy King!
Let the air with praises ring!
All thou canst, proclaim with mirth,
far higher is His worth
than the glory words may wing.

Lo! before our eyes and living
is the Sacred Bread life-giving,
theme of canticle and hymn.
We profess this Bread from heaven
to the Twelve by Christ was given,
for our faith rest firm in Him.

Let us form a joyful chorus,
may our lauds ascend sonorous,
bursting from each loving breast.
For we solemnly record
how the Table of the Lord
with the Lamb’s own gift was blest.

On this altar of the King
this new Paschal Offering
brings an end to ancient rite.
Shadows flee that truth may stay,
oldness to the new gives way,
and the night’s darkness to the light.

What at Supper Christ completed
He ordained to be repeated,
in His memory Divine.
Wherefore now, with adoration,
we, the Host of our salvation,
consecrate from bread and wine.

Words a nature’s course derange,
that in Flesh the bread may change
and the wine in Christ’s own Blood.
Does it pass thy comprehending?
Faith, the law of light transcending,
leaps to things not understood.

Here beneath these signs are hidden
priceless things, to sense forbidden;
signs, not things, are all we see.
Flesh from bread, and Blood from wine,
yet is Christ in either sign,
all entire confessed to be.

And whoe’er of Him partakes,
severs not, nor rends, nor breaks:
all entire, their Lord receive.
Whether one or thousand eat,
all receive the selfsame meat,
nor do less for others leave.

Both the wicked and the good
eat of this celestial Food:
but with ends how opposite!
With this most substantial Bread,
unto life or death they’re fed,
in a difference infinite.

Nor a single doubt retain,
when they break the Host in twain,
but that in each part remain
what was in the whole before;
For the outward sign alone
may some change have undergone,
while the Signified stays one,
and the same forevermore.

Hail! Bread of the Angels, broken,
for us pilgrims food, and token
of the promise by Christ spoken,
children’s meat, to dogs denied!
Shown in Isaac’s dedication,
in the Manna’s preparation,
in the Paschal immolation,
in old types pre-signified.

Jesus, Shepherd mild and meek,
shield the poor, support the weak;
help all who Thy pardon sue,
placing all their trust in You:
fill them with Your healing grace!
Source of all we have or know,
feed and lead us here below.
grant that with Your Saints above,
sitting at the feast of love
we may see You face to face.
Amen. Alleluia.

I hope that this helps. I think it offers an excellent explanation.

 

[johnnykins]

One thing I have sort of a hard time with is understanding why we as Catholics do not believe in CONsubstantiation as opposed to TRANsubstantiation. I mean, clearly, if a scientific test were done, we would find that the bread and the wine remain physically intact. So why do we not believe that the Eucharist is both bread and wine AND the real presence of Jesus? It seems illogical.

1. Is it logical that God is One God in 3 persons? What can that possibly mean?
2. Is it logical that Jesus is fully God and fully man? God was born? Of a virgin??? Yeah right - from a logical perspective.
3. Is it logical that God died and suffered for us? Rather a brutal way to make a point for an omnipotent God - not too logical.
4. Why believe the sacrifice of the Mass is a representation of Calvary in an unbloody manner - no sense to that at all in a logical world?

I think the point is that God transcends logic, physics, chemistry etc.The sacred species are Jesus because that’s what he and His Church tell us. It’s a reality beyond the confines of this world. If it’s still bread - then we adore bread. Perhaps that’s what we do!? Fools all…

But if God in fact transcends all understanding, and all the confines of this world, well, why can’t He be here in the appearance of bread and wine that is His body and blood at the very moment of His eternal sacrifice made present now?

 

[choy]

another reason why consubstantiation is not viable in the faith is because of John 6:54

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:54[/BIBLEDRB]

how can flesh and bread be present at the same time in the same matter? same with blood and wine. Jesus asks that we eat His flesh and drink His blood, and to do so the must be His real flesh and His real blood. unless Jesus has crumbs in his skin and a BAC of 5% or more, then bread cannot be present where His flesh is, and wine cannot be present where His blood is

 

[mangy_dog]

One thing I have sort of a hard time with is understanding why we as Catholics do not believe in CONsubstantiation as opposed to TRANsubstantiation. I mean, clearly, if a scientific test were done, we would find that the bread and the wine remain physically intact. So why do we not believe that the Eucharist is both bread and wine AND the real presence of Jesus? It seems illogical.

Clearly a scientific test would reveal that it is bread and wine…Consecration does not change the accidental perception of our reality.

However, in the supernatural order, it is, truly, the Body, Soul and Divinity of Christ…

Trans - meaning it transcends the natural (what we see and taste and [test] and supernatural (what has truly happened in the consecration) barrier.

You are not suspending you intellect - you are making an assent of the will, informed by your intellect.

 

[teachccd]

The substance of anything is what it is. If you were to take a cup for drinking and place it before you it would unite itself with all of the cups in the world. This cup could be plastic, paper, ceramic, wooden or whatever but when asked what it is one would say a cup.

Now if you were to fill the cup with dirt and add a plant it would be a planter. It would unite itself with all of the brick, wooden, and other planters in the world. Even though the outside may look like a cup, the “what is it” is a planter. Its essence or substance has changed.

When Christ changed the bread and wine into His body and blood the essence or substance is now Christ Himself. No more would one say in the example given above (which pales infinitely but is the best that I can do) that it is a cup and a planter. In that case you would have two substances and it would not be entirely the one thing that it was meant to be.

Transubstantiation best defines the change that takes place at the words of consecration (any part of the Eucharistic Prayer in the Eastern Rites) and indicates what Christ meant when He said ,“This is my body”. Who is it? What is the essence of the Eucharist? Nothing less than Jesus Himself. That is why transubstantiation makes the most sense and that is why it is a defined doctrine of the Catholic Church. We hear Jesus and listen… teachccd

 

[JerrySeibert]

Thoughtfulone; Faith is being sure of what you hope for and, certain of what you do not see. Hebrews 11-1.
Some things must be taken on Faith. Realizing all of the Miracles that have been documented by the Church through the years. I can’t help but feel God chose some of these “Miracles” to strenthen the faith of those who have it; And give proof to those who lack faith as Jesus said to Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen but still beleive”
Read the New Testament. Jeses mentioned “Faith” on numerous occasions. We must strugle with our own intelect “Doubt” but remember who is the father of doubt and lies. Lucifer that’s who.
I hope this helps.

 

[Arandur]

If we did scientific tests on the very living body of Jesus Christ (at any point, though the analogy is easiest to imagine during Christ’s initial incarnated life before the Resurrection), we would surely find that he is human in all respects, correct?

Then why would we not find that, in the Bread and Wine, we find Bread and Wine, even though it is really him, just as Christ’s Body is really human?

Also, “consubstantiation” seems to imply that Jesus does not dignify physical, material things with his presence (despite the Incarnation), and that he keeps himself hidden from us, subordinated under physical things, as if he is an illusion. Whereas, just as in the Incarnation, the reality is that Christ is no illusion; he actually comes into, becomes the physical, physically present, meeting us in all of our humanity, body and soul.

In taking this Christ made flesh in the bread and wine, he comes into us physically and we in-corp-orate him into us, his body becoming ours, we becoming physically and real-ly part of his Body. How in any other way can we have eternal life than by becoming one with the only eternal, resurrected body living (Christ)? This is the meaning of John 6–unless we eat his eternal body and drink his eternal blood (and let the Incarnate God come into us and live through us in place of and in union with us) can we have eternal life.