Why not gay marriage?

[Samuel_Monosov]

Because we want what is good for society, and homosexual “marriage” is not good for society.

How do you know it won’t be good for society?

How do you know contraception is bad for society?

 

[Nate13]

I think Samuel makes a good point when he mentions how we can actually look back at how artificial contraception and no-fault divorce have impacted our society and yet many Catholics are still anywhere from apathetic to “I think it’s wrong but it’s not my business; y’know, charity and all…” on the aforementioned issues, yet they’re eerily gung-ho about “protecting marriage” (which, if you don’t really care about the divorce epidemic in this country, you’re not really doing at all).

Uh in my opinion I have seen just about as much apathy on gay marriage as I have on contraception or divorce on this forum and among Catholics personally. I’m sorry but Catholics are eerily un-hypocritical in this respect and really haven’t learned their lesson from past events.
religiondispatches.org/dispatches/candacechellew-hodge/4417/new_poll_shows_strong_catholic_support_for_gay_rights

I take the same stance on contraception, gay marriage, and divorce. Our government should not be promoting any of it as a good thing. They don’t have to make it illegal, but they also should not be formally recognizing it and saying its a good thing. I have a problem with the pervasive attitude right now that contraceptives are the life saver for society and that funding is being put towards it by the government. Civil divorce has its purposes as I mentioned before, so that should not be made illegal. The promotion of civil divorce as the easy way out, and the lack of respect for the institution of marriage though is something I have a problem with.

 

[St_Francis]

How do you know it won’t be good for society?

Because sin is never good for society.

How do you know contraception is bad for society?

Because sin is never good for society.

I do have points, but I’m going to put them into my next post.

 

[St_Francis]

How do you know it won’t be good for society?

How do you know contraception is bad for society?

We can see that separating sex from procreation is bad for society by the subsequent awful consequences we have seen in our society, but these consequences were foretold by the Pope in Humanae Vitae. We could, by considering how things work, see that these consequences would follow.

In the same way, by considering how things work is real life, as opposed to the idealized version put forth by recent thinkers, wee can see that homosexual marriage will only contribute to the great harm which has already been done to our society.

We do not have to have lots of people run their cars without oil to see that running cars without oil would be a really bad idea, do we? we look at how cars are designed and understand that running them with no oil is a bad thing. In the same way, we didn’t have to prove that contraception would be destructive of society, we just had to look at how society works.

 

[St_Francis]

Thank you for your answers.

You have helped me understand why Catholics think gay marriage is wrong.

I still do not understand why Catholics would legally oppose gay marriage for non-Catholics, because Catholics do not legally oppose use of contraception for non-Catholics, or divorce for non-Catholics…

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there was opposition to birth control, there used to be laws against birth control. But unfortunately, it seems that at that point, it was seen to be just as you suggest: what’s the problem with non-Catholics allowing it for themselves? Catholics were trying to live as Americans so we didn’t fight contracepttion and easy divorce as strongly as we should have. Te water was not yet boiling, so we felt comfortable. When the water started to boil, we woke up to what was going on.

 

[Samuel_Monosov]

We can see that separating sex from procreation is bad for society by the subsequent awful consequences we have seen in our society, but these consequences were foretold by the Pope in Humanae Vitae.

There is a Protestant philosopher named Francis Schaeffer, who predicted many of the serious problems in our society, such as abortion, the destruction of the nuclear family, broken homes, failure in our education system, rampant war and economic instability, government over-control, etc. etc. He predicted them without even passing reference to birth control. He saw these things as a consequence to secularism and a loss of meaning in academia, the arts, music and day-to-day life.

In spite of all the problems in our age, I would rather be alive now than at any other time in history. If I could choose another time to live, I’d bet on the future. Things seem better now than they ever have been, in most ways.

So the challenge would be to (1) show what the consequence of contraception are supposed to be, (2) show that these things really did happen and (3) really are connected to contraception, and not some other cause, and (4) show that these are really bad things.

Can this be done?

…

Cars without oil do not work. Marriages without children do work. Therefore procreation is not to marriage as oil is to cars. If it were, then marriages without children would be worse than inferior. They would all be failures.

 

[St_Francis]

There is a Protestant philosopher named Francis Schaeffer, who predicted many of the serious problems in our society, such as abortion, the destruction of the nuclear family, broken homes, failure in our education system, rampant war and economic instability, government over-control, etc. etc. He predicted them without even passing reference to birth control. He saw these things as a consequence to secularism and a loss of meaning in academia, the arts, music and day-to-day life.]

In spite of all the problems in our age, I would rather be alive now than at any other time in history. If I could choose another time to live, I’d bet on the future. Things seem better now than they ever have been, in most ways.

So the challenge would be to (1) show what the consequence of contraception are supposed to be, (2) show that these things really did happen and (3) really are connected to contraception, and not some other cause, and (4) show that these are really bad things.

I am explaining the Catholic point of view, but I do not intend to debate. This is the Catholic point of view, and since we did not conduct a double-blind experiment, no, we cannot “prove” a lot of these things.

Cars without oil do not work. Marriages without children do work. Therefore procreation is not to marriage as oil is to cars. If it were, then marriages without children would be worse than inferior. They would all be failures.

I did not intend the analogy to relate to marriage; I intended to relate it to proofs and the necessity for them.

 

[Samuel63]

So the challenge would be to (1) show what the consequence of contraception are supposed to be, (2) show that these things really did happen and (3) really are connected to contraception, and not some other cause, and (4) show that these are really bad things.

Can this be done?

Contraception, over a few generations, eliminates non-faithful from the gift of life. Over time, orthodox, traditional factions gain the upper hand in the population. The muslim population in europe is an example. Is this a bad thing? When cultures contracept themselves into a minority willingly, it represents surrender in a manner. This has a very negative impact on the younger generation. This younger group sees the cowardice and loses faith.

 

[twoangels]

Alright, the contraception question I asked you answered. That made some sense, so I can imagine why you don’t like gay activity or why you don’t do gay marriage.

But what about people who aren’t Catholic? They get divorced and do all kinds of other things that you don’t agree with. Why can’t two men get together and the state can call it marriage or whatever else they like? They do this sort of thing anyway about divorce, with a lot less arguments and protests from you guys.

Why should you care if other religions want to recognize gay marriage?

What about gay adoption? Why not allow it for limited cases, to see what effect it has, and if its a good idea overall, or not?

We want to stand up for what marriage is and we want future generations to not be confused about what marriage is. That said, I personally think that making a huge issue about gay marriage is like walking through the ruins of a city that has been bombed and freaking out over some people kicking over a pile of bricks.

 

[NicoleVentura]

I do believe if its between 2 consenting adults and not hurting anyone else, they can do what they wish.

I believe its wrong to take your own beliefs and shove it down others throats.

If two gay men or two lesbians want to marry, be my guest. Its not my business, its not my choice, and its not hurting me.

They are adults, they can make their own choices. I do believe gay marriage should be legalized, and I know that someday it will be in all states.

 

[letmebefree]

Alright, the contraception question I asked you answered. That made some sense, so I can imagine why you don’t like gay activity or why you don’t do gay marriage.

But what about people who aren’t Catholic? They get divorced and do all kinds of other things that you don’t agree with. Why can’t two men get together and the state can call it marriage or whatever else they like? They do this sort of thing anyway about divorce, with a lot less arguments and protests from you guys.

Why should you care if other religions want to recognize gay marriage?

What about gay adoption? Why not allow it for limited cases, to see what effect it has, and if its a good idea overall, or not?

The Church wants to impose on the World their rules. Its against the law in this country but they get away with it. Human rights should not be up for a vote NEVER yet they do it. No religion should impose this its beliefs on anyone its horrible and discriminative.

 

[St_Francis]

The Church wants to impose on the World their rules.

Yes, the Church uses its vast military, police, and taxing authority to impose its will on everyone. That is why everyone in this nation is Catholic and attends Mass every Sunday.

Its against the law in this country but they get away with it.

The actual “law,” or rather statement of the Constitution, is to protects *religions *in this country from intrusion by the government, not the other way around.

Human rights should not be up for a vote NEVER yet they do it.

There is no human right to sin. There is no human right to marry a person of the same sex.

No religion should impose this its beliefs on anyone its horrible and discriminative.

And I bet you wouldn’t try to pull someone out of a burning house either.

Oh, btw, I notice you got your religion wrong in your profile.

 

[cformosa4]

Monogamous gay relationship? What data and sources can you cite that indicate a majority of gay couples have remained monogamous for their entire life?

Oh my goodness. I feel sorry for you. Please educate yourself.

Every gay couple I know is completely monogamous… I know more straight couples that have cheated on each other than I do gay couples. Most gay men are far more compassionate, loyal and sensitive than many many many straight men.

 

[Samuel_Monosov]

My conclusions based on your arguments and answers to my questions.

From a Catholic framework:

It is rational for Catholics to consider contraception a sin.
It is rational for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is rational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics

It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics at this time.

Thank you for helping me reach these conclusions. These also help inform my political perspective and activity. Based on the results of my questions so far, I will add my name to petitions to oppose HHS contraception mandates because these violate Catholic religious freedom.

I will also support the closing of Catholic adoption agencies that refuse to adopt to gays, because all the evidence presented in this forums and elsewhere suggests that refusal to adopt to gays is simple prejudice, and is not rationally supported by Catholic religious tenets.

Thank you again for your help in this, and please, feel free to continue the conversation. It may be of some help to others.

 

[cformosa4]

My conclusions based on your arguments and answers to my questions.

From a Catholic framework:

It is rational for Catholics to consider contraception a sin.
It is rational for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is rational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics

It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics at this time.

Thank you for helping me reach these conclusions. These also help inform my political perspective and activity. Based on the results of my questions so far, I will add my name to petitions to oppose HHS contraception mandates because these violate Catholic religious freedom.

I will also support the closing of Catholic adoption agencies that refuse to adopt to gays, because all the evidence presented in this forums and elsewhere suggests that refusal to adopt to gays is simple prejudice, and is not rationally supported by Catholic religious tenets.

Thank you again for your help in this, and please, feel free to continue the conversation. It may be of some help to others.

Thanks Samuel, a nice summary.

I agree “It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics”

However,
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics

 

[Nate13]

I do believe if its between 2 consenting adults and not hurting anyone else, they can do what they wish.

I believe its wrong to take your own beliefs and shove it down others throats.

If two gay men or two lesbians want to marry, be my guest. Its not my business, its not my choice, and its not hurting me.

They are adults, they can make their own choices. I do believe gay marriage should be legalized, and I know that someday it will be in all states.

Haha when has the Church or the government attempted to not let 2 consenting adults do what they want to do? They can go get married if they want lol. The question is whether society should reward them for what they are doing, and promote it as something equal to marriage between heterosexual marriages.

I really just don’t understand people who make it sound like the Church or government is busting down doors and tearing gay people apart from each other. You can go to any State right now and find a Church that will marry two gay people. Two gay people could hold their own service. Who the heck on here only considered themselves married to their spouse when the government recognized it?

 

[Nate13]

Thanks Samuel, a nice summary.

I agree “It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics”

However,
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm

 

[vsedriver]

Do these statistics adjust for wealth? Are the children of wealthy single parents more likely to be poor than the children of wealthy straight couples?

 

[vsedriver]

How do you know it won’t be good for society?

How do you know contraception is bad for society?

check the divorce and abortion statistics prior to the use of the pill. The pill lead directly to no fault divorce and the destruction of marriage and to the use of abortion as a back up for failed birth control.

 

[Samuel_Monosov]

check the divorce and abortion statistics prior to the use of the pill. The pill lead directly to no fault divorce and the destruction of marriage and to the use of abortion as a back up for failed birth control.

Check divorce and abortion stats prior to the development of the Barbie doll.

Contraception was used as an excuse for abortion in Roe vs Wade, but the effective strategy in the case was the privacy afforded by a woman’s body. It would seem to make more sense to blame privacy and Barbie dolls for abortion than to blame contraception.

I am unaware of even a superficial connection between contraception and divorce rates.