Why not Gospel music?

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Apryl

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In recent months, I have been attempting to do a lot of research on church and liturgy. I have also been having lots of conversations.

Sometimes, though, I get ‘conversations’ mixed up with ‘research’

Recently, I was discussing music in church and made a comment about ‘we aren’t supposed to have all that Praise & Worship music’… and when I was called to task on it, I couldn’t explain WHY we aren’t supposed to have that kind of music in mass.

So, first of all, was I correct in my comment? Is this something that we are supposed to avoid?

If it is, why it it so?

I have attempted to look in the GIRM and the CCC, but so far, I haven’t found it.

Did I look in the right places? What should I look for in order to answer this?

(Just like the question of holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. I’ve found lots of answers, but so far, nothing definitive)
 
The reason that you have not found anything definitive is because this is a gray area, and answers are hard to come by.

There are certain governing principles that the Church has set forth in making these judgements.

First of all, the text of the music must be sound and free of doctrinal error. If the text is sound, the melody and music composition must be of a high quality and should be “beautiful”, in the words of one document. Obviously, this is a judgement left to the director of music in a parish, and, by extension ultimately, the pastor.

Generally, many “praise” songs are not appropriate for mass because they are what I like to call “Jesus & Me” songs. Look at the texts. “Lord, I worship you.” … It’s always “I” this and “I” that. At Eucharist, we gather TOGETHER as the people of God. There are few “I”'s in the liturgy, but many “WE”'s. Music for the mass should generally speak of the assembly gathered, the community, the body of Christ.

With that being said, no one style is off limits. I would be open, for example, to using “Lord, Have Mercy” by Michael W. Smith at mass, if I changed the word “me” to “us” in the refrain. It would then say “Lord, have mercy, Christ, have mercy, Lord, have mercy on us.”

These selections should be made very carefully, however. The bishops, in various documents, namely “Music in Catholic Worship”, among others, remind us that we should avoid the “trite”, and avoid opting for the use of pop sounding music to achieve “instant liturgy”. Obviously, this would do more harm than good.

All things in moderation.
 
We use P and W music in both of the Parishes where I play piano for Masses.
 
There are a couple of issues to consider when judging a style of music and an individual composition.

First, the text. Is the text “always in conformity with Catholic doctrine”? Is the text “drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources”? These are both requirements directly from Vatican II. Also, is the text artistic or of dubious artistic merit?

Then the music. The “permanent standard” and “supreme model” of Catholic sacred music is Gregorian chant. Sacred polyphony is also recognized by the Church as being an especially worthy style as well. So all music must be measured against the standard and the model of Gregorian chant. As John Paul II reiterated it,
With regard to liturgical music compositions, I make my own the “general law” that Saint Pius X formulated in these terms: “A composition for Church is sacred and liturgical insofar as it approaches Gregorian melody in flow, in inspiration, and in flavor, and so much less is it worthy of the temple insomuch as it is recognized as departing from that supreme model”. Evidently, this does not mean copying Gregorian chant, but rather seeing to it that new compositions be pervaded by the same spirit that gave rise to and so molded that chant. Only an artist profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae may try to perceive and translate into melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy. From this perspective, in the Letter to Artists I wrote: “How many sacred works have been composed through the centuries by people deeply imbued with the sense of the mystery! The faith of countless believers has been nourished by melodies flowing from the hearts of other believers, either introduced into the Liturgy or used as an aid to dignified worship. In song, faith is experienced as vibrant joy, love, and confident expectation of the saving intervention of God”.

This leads to a third consideration. Has the composer been “profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae” (mind of the Church) regarding the requirements and qualities necessary for Catholic sacred music? Very, very few Protestant composers could answer “yes” to this question, and the situation is not much improved in the case of most contemporary Catholic composers.
 
We have Praise and Worship music at our 5pm Mass, which is why I choose that one. Love the music!
 
BTW, is there any Catholic sacred music that is not “praise and worship” music? Honestly, I hate that a particular style of music claims to be “praise and worship” music, insinuating that no other styles are quite as praise-filled and worshipful. But that’s just me…
 
PaixGioiaAmor gave some good answers. In addition, as I’m sure you’ve seen in some of the other threads, sacred music is a very hotly debated topic, as people tend to have different ideas of what is “high quality” and “beautiful” in terms of just being a listener. For just auditory pleasure alone, this is just based on the levels of tastes for the listener. In terms of the critiquing the music academically, though, high quality that is totally a different story.

As my first voice teacher would always say to me “Prime le parole, dopa la musica!” (First the words, after the music.) She was not meaning this for sacred music alone as I was learning music in many different languages, but I believe it holds very true with what is acceptable for the text in sacred Catholic music. My opinions and beliefs on sacred music have gotten me into some enjoyable debates here, but I always remind myself that in the end we are all looking for the same thing that will be helpful in nourishing our spiritual life. If the text is liturgically sound and if it is the best they your parish can offer, it’s good, although I do not believe it should be the only music offered especially if you have other congregants with the good talent of other styles of music.

Anyway, in terms of Gospel music, I think it depends on the cultural background of the congregation as well. We have a number of African-American parishes in my city. Many were converts from Protestant faiths, mainly Baptist faiths. When you enter their parishes, which I have as I attended a university smack in the middle in one of the worse areas of the city, (many of our city universities are in very bad neighborhoods) you will find hymnals with African-American gospel music and spirituals. They also do some traditional music. The pastor of this one particular parish is Irish - as pasty white as one can be. The congregation is mostly African-American and they love him there. He has been there for over 20 years and have slowly placed a nice mix of their own cultural and the Catholic Church’s traditional music and practices. It works, but I don’t know if it would be permitted in different parishes of different demographics and traditions.
 
Sarabande said:
PaixGioiaAmor gave some good answers. In addition, as I’m sure you’ve seen in some of the other threads, sacred music is a very hotly debated topic, as people tend to have different ideas of what is “high quality” and “beautiful” in terms of just being a listener. For just auditory pleasure alone, this is just based on the levels of tastes for the listener. In terms of the critiquing the music academically, though, high quality that is totally a different story.

As my first voice teacher would always say to me “Prime le parole, dopa la musica!” (First the words, after the music.) She was not meaning this for sacred music alone as I was learning music in many different languages, but I believe it holds very true with what is acceptable for the text in sacred Catholic music. My opinions and beliefs on sacred music have gotten me into some enjoyable debates here, but I always remind myself that in the end we are all looking for the same thing that will be helpful in nourishing our spiritual life. If the text is liturgically sound and if it is the best they your parish can offer, it’s good, although I do not believe it should be the only music offered especially if you have other congregants with the good talent of other styles of music.

Anyway, in terms of Gospel music, I think it depends on the cultural background of the congregation as well. We have a number of African-American parishes in my city. Many were converts from Protestant faiths, mainly Baptist faiths. When you enter their parishes, which I have as I attended a university smack in the middle in one of the worse areas of the city, (many of our city universities are in very bad neighborhoods) you will find hymnals with African-American gospel music and spirituals. They also do some traditional music. The pastor of this one particular parish is Irish - as pasty white as one can be. The congregation is mostly African-American and they love him there. He has been there for over 20 years and have slowly placed a nice mix of their own cultural and the Catholic Church’s traditional music and practices. It works, but I don’t know if it would be permitted in different parishes of different demographics and traditions.
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Excellant post!
 
St. Mary’s downtown, which is historically black, has a gospel choir. They’re very good, and good about not taking over the mass, unlike some choirs I’ve known!

Our new bishop came from Hawaii… where he got permission from the Vatican for hula masses. Yes, we worried at first, too. Apparently, hula was used for storytelling in pre-Christian worship services, so, people had asked if it could be brought into mass, too. I think it was generally restricted to those parishes that were predominantly ethnic Hawaiian, though, so as not to be a tourist thing.
 
VociMike said:
BTW, is there any Catholic sacred music that is not “praise and worship” music? Honestly, I hate that a particular style of music claims to be “praise and worship” music, insinuating that no other styles are quite as praise-filled and worshipful. But that’s just me…
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You have a very good point. I never thought of it that way. I personally do not like Praise and Worship music for academic reasons, personal taste and a literally physical aversion to it, although I understand if other people do. But it does seem strange that only that kind of music would be considered ‘praise and worship’ when there are many other genres that are just as worthy of being praise and worship of our Lord, especially if someone gets nothing out of “Praise and Worship” music. Could they perhaps call it something else which wouldn’t have a negative insinuation on the other forms of music? Like maybe Sacred Pop or Sacred Rock since it evokes that style?
 
Gardening_Mommy said:
St. Mary’s downtown, which is historically black, has a gospel choir. They’re very good, and good about not taking over the mass, unlike some choirs I’ve known!

Our new bishop came from Hawaii… where he got permission from the Vatican for hula masses. Yes, we worried at first, too. Apparently, hula was used for storytelling in pre-Christian worship services, so, people had asked if it could be brought into mass, too. I think it was generally restricted to those parishes that were predominantly ethnic Hawaiian, though, so as not to be a tourist thing.
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That’s very interesting. I never heard of a hula mass. I think what we’ll find in mainly ethnic parishes are practices that are only reserved for that demographic, but wouldn’t be in a more diverse parish. When I’d visit my Filipino relatives as a child, their masses were a bit different from what I was used to. Even their wedding ceremonies have parts that would not be permitted in a non-ethnic wedding that isn’t Filipino or Latino (we share the cord and veil ceremonies). The music is quite different and they mostly use guitar. The strange thing is that although I can’t stand the folksy hymns from the 60s and 70s that I had to grow up with in the 80s and 90s in my mostly white parish, the Filipino hymns felt fine. Now, since I haven’t attended a Filipino mass in years, I wouldn’t know how liturgically sound the texts were, plus my mother never taught us her dialect and the national dialect since I grew up mostly around the caucasion side of my family. Perhaps it’s because their music, although with a guitar, was true to their worship culture, as smaller towns over there didn’t have the organ and it had been part of them for a couple of centuries. Whereas it always seemed like the folk movement in the American church was contrived and the former music of what they were adept to hearing and singing during mass was just abruptly ended. Also probably because when that movement started, you’d hear secular music being played during the mass.

Gospel music on the other hand, is part of a specific worship culture. It was always a part of the African-American’s worship, so it can be viewed in a different way than the American folk music. Folk music in almost any country was mostly always secular music prior to it being introduced to the sacred realm centuries later. The same with rock/pop music. There isn’t anything wrong with religious rock music outside of the mass though.
 
I’m not sure what G&P music is. But if it’s the same thing as “Southern Gospel”, I would greatly prefer it to the ersatz 1970s folk music that seems to prevail in so many Catholic dioceses including, sadly, my own. Such a mess! In my diocese, the bishop will not allow the Tridentine Mass or even the N.O. in Latin, because protestants in this Bible Belt are “wouldn’t understand”. No Gregorian either, of course. But then we sing tunes written by Marty Haugen and the St. Louis Jesuits that are utterly alien to the local culture (not to mention unattractive), while Southern Gospel is pervasive and appreciated. Makes you want to pull your hair out sometimes.
 
Oops! Looked up and saw that people were talking about “Praise and Worship” music. I still don’t know for sure what that is. Maybe it’s Southern Gospel.
 
Sarabande said:
Whereas it always seemed like the folk movement in the American church was contrived and the former music of what they were adept to hearing and singing during mass was just abruptly ended.

Gospel music on the other hand, is part of a specific worship culture. It was always a part of the African-American’s worship, so it can be viewed in a different way than the American folk music. .
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I am not a music expert, so I can’t say for sure that songs like “On Eagles’ Wings” derived from any kind of folk music. But I am inclined to doubt it. My guess is that the “folk-like” music so prevalent in the Chuch in America is just bogus; something a lot of church professionals thought sounded like something Peter, Paul and Mary would sing, and thought it sounded authentic to them.

Gospel music really is part of the culture, and not just part of the African-American culture. It has always been popular among white southerners as well, though “white” Gospel isn’t quite the same as “black” Gospel, though it’s similar.

Other than Gospel, the Blues, and the Irish and Scots/Irish music that is now referred to generically as “Bluegrass”, (and its stepchild, ‘Country and Western’) I’m not sure there really is any truly American “folk music”. Most of that 1960s and 1970s “folk music” sure wasn’t.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I am not a music expert, so I can’t say for sure that songs like “On Eagles’ Wings” derived from any kind of folk music. But I am inclined to doubt it. My guess is that the “folk-like” music so prevalent in the Chuch in America is just bogus; something a lot of church professionals thought sounded like something Peter, Paul and Mary would sing, and thought it sounded authentic to them.

Gospel music really is part of the culture, and not just part of the African-American culture. It has always been popular among white southerners as well, though “white” Gospel isn’t quite the same as “black” Gospel, though it’s similar.

Other than Gospel, the Blues, and the Irish and Scots/Irish music that is now referred to generically as “Bluegrass”, (and its stepchild, ‘Country and Western’) I’m not sure there really is any truly American “folk music”. Most of that 1960s and 1970s “folk music” sure wasn’t.
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That’s why I call that sort of church music “folksy” and that it always felt contrived to me. 🙂 I grew up with parents who loved classical music, Elvis, The Beatles and real folk music, so none of that stuff at mass ever felt “real”, so to speak.

I’ve heard mostly only African-American Gospel music in the parishes that I spoke about in my previous post and in Baptist choir concerts. I didn’t realize there is “white” Gospel music. Very interesting. I definitely learn something new every day. My “forte” (haha) of music education is basically western Classical music as I’m a classical musician.

There are some very beautiful American folk music that classical composers have set for performing in recitals. One of the more famously-known ones is the Shaker tune “Simple Gifts”, set by Aaron Copeland. Samuel Barber, who I prefer as a composer to Copeland, also set some gorgeous American folk melodies. But I’m getting totally off topic here. Back on topic…
 
Any music used in the church should be Logos(Word,Reason)-inspired. It should be conducive to awe,reverence,prayer,mystery,serious thoughts. And it should be of a purified kind of beauty. It should not be
the kind of popular music where the community could just as easily be celebrating itself,rather than singing within the spirit of the Logos. We have to know what we praise and worship,and do it in a way that is fitting to the mystery. See the Pope’s book “A New Song to the Lord”.
 
Gardening_Mommy said:
St. Mary’s downtown, which is historically black, has a gospel choir. They’re very good, and good about not taking over the mass, unlike some choirs I’ve known!.
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Personally, I see this (taking over the mass) as much more of a problem then the style of music!

It’s hard to have three leaders: the Pastor, the Choir Director… and I don’t know who the third is, but I’m sure it’s in there.
 
Sarabande said:
Gospel music on the other hand, is part of a specific worship culture. It was always a part of the African-American’s worship, so it can be viewed in a different way than the American folk music. Folk music in almost any country was mostly always secular music prior to it being introduced to the sacred realm centuries later. The same with rock/pop music. There isn’t anything wrong with religious rock music outside of the mass though.
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I did use the word ‘Gospel’ in the subject line… but hey, I gotta grab attention, don’t I?

Still, there are many STYLES of Gospel music. Gospel music is not the problem… but the style of Gospel that is referred to as ‘Praise and Worship’. I’m not even really sure what it is, but we had one poster on this thread that mentioned the "I"s used in the style of music… things that didn’t express our union with each other (and the saints and angels) during mass.

One of the reasons this came to my attention was the many posts on the use of guitars during mass. I still am not sure what ‘Praise and Worship’ is, but I have been to some masses where it became a time for shouting matches among the soloists. Distracting!
 
Apryl said:
I did use the word ‘Gospel’ in the subject line… but hey, I gotta grab attention, don’t I?

Still, there are many STYLES of Gospel music. Gospel music is not the problem… but the style of Gospel that is referred to as ‘Praise and Worship’. I’m not even really sure what it is, but we had one poster on this thread that mentioned the "I"s used in the style of music… things that didn’t express our union with each other (and the saints and angels) during mass.

One of the reasons this came to my attention was the many posts on the use of guitars during mass. I still am not sure what ‘Praise and Worship’ is, but I have been to some masses where it became a time for shouting matches among the soloists. Distracting!
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I think of Praise and Worship music as something other than “Gospel”. I think of it more as something like Brian Doerksen’s Come, Now is the Time to Worship. It is kind of a subset of CCM (contemporary Christian Music,) which is more pop than Gospel.

Gospel music is what Mahalia Jackson sings. It’s closer to Rhythm and Blues or Jazz. I’d say the Saint Louis Jesuits style is more Appalachian folk, (although I think some it sounds like Mariachi music.)
 
SMHW said:
I think of Praise and Worship music as something other than “Gospel”. I think of it more as something like Brian Doerksen’s Come, Now is the Time to Worship. It is kind of a subset of CCM (contemporary Christian Music,) which is more pop than Gospel.

Gospel music is what Mahalia Jackson sings. It’s closer to Rhythm and Blues or Jazz. I’d say the Saint Louis Jesuits style is more Appalachian folk, (although I think some it sounds like Mariachi music.)
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Eewwwww! “Contemporary Christian Music”. If that’s what Praise and Worship music is, count me out!

I don’t live in Appalachia, so I can’t speak of Appalachian folk music for certain, but I do live in the southern mountains (and I think there’s more similarity throughout those regions than there are differences…all the way from the Blue Ridge to the Texas Hill Country), and the St. Louis Jesuits’ music is nothing like southern mountain folk music, the latter being akin to Irish and Scottish music; the near offspring of which is usually referred to as Bluegrass. Southern mountain folk music is really ancient. I recall looking up old ballads while studying Chaucer in college, and I was surprised to learn that some of the songs I heard on the radio as a kid dated from Chaucer’s era.

Southern Gospel music is very similar to “Black” Gospel music in its messages and in other ways, but (based on what I have heard of both) is perhaps a bit more sedate, generally. Harmonious in a highly predictable way, and easy to sing. Likely the “white” Southern Gospel music derives from “black” Gospel music in the deep south, and has probably been imported into the southern mountains from there. It’s like a blend of southern mountain folk and deep south Black Gospel. Southern Gospel is its own genre, or sub-genre, and you just have to hear it to know what it is. In any event, it’s referred to as just that: “Southern Gospel Music”.

I will admit that Southern Gospel is far more “I” than “we”. But I’m not sure that’s such a bad thing. Maybe I’m just a rube, but to me, Southern Gospel, by and large, like Black Gospel, is largely about my relationship with God, especially in the Person of Jesus, and I find it conducive to prayerfulness, worship and a real desire to be united to Jesus. It is quite open in admitting to human sinfulness and need of redemption. I, for one, am not terribly moved by all the “we” songs. If I don’t love Jesus, and resolve myself to walk in His path, I’m not going to love my neighbor, no matter how many times I sing about the latter. But if I know my own sinfulness and if I have a truly prayerful desire to follow Jesus and pursue redemption, I can’t avoid knowing that others are on the very same path and have the very same needs, and I am more likely to empathize, knowing that.

But I will also say that quite possibly one had to grow up in the southern mountains or the deep south to fully appreciate Southern Gospel. It’s very rural. Too, you might need to know how the thought patterns go in order to really appreciate it. I am frequently reminded of Flannery O’Connor’s belief that southern fundamentalists would find themselves surprised to eventually realize that their beliefs are more similar to Catholicism than to classic Protestantism. She believed the richest vein for future conversions in the U.S. would be among southern fundamentalists. I am inclined to believe that as well.
 
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