Why not: "he that readeth what I write heareth me???"

[joe370]

Non-Catholic friends, just a couple questions I could not answer long ago; perhaps you can?

Jesus, according to sacred scripture, established a teaching Church, commissioning His apostolic church to teach, adding:* “He that heareth you, heareth me.”* Jesus, as far as I can tell, said nothing about establishing a teaching Bible (NEVER to impugn the inerrant word of God of course; goes without saying, but said it just in case) - to be interpreted by each and every Christian as he/she is moved by the holy spirit. With that said:

1. If scripture alone, as the Christians final authority as he/she is moved by the holy spirit (as opposed to any one ecclesial body of teachers, regardless of denomination, as they are moved by the holy spirit) - was/is what Jesus had in mind all along, why not just give the apostles the holy Bible right from the outset, thereby, in theory, mirroring what we see today in the non-Catholic sphere?
2. It seems that so much confusion could have been avoided for the first 15 centuries of Christianity if Jesus would have simply inserted in the Bible: “he that readeth what I writeth, in this Bible, heareth me???” - and then of course start distributing bibles to His fledgling apostolic church, following that up with the passage: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide every Christian into all the truth regarding the teachings found in the holy Bible.

Creating the holy Bible in a single divine occurrence, would have been a piece of cake for God to do!!! Just look at what He did with the five loaves and the two fish!

 

[Steven_John]

Non-Catholic friends, just a couple questions I could not answer long ago; perhaps you can?

Jesus, according to sacred scripture, established a teaching Church, commissioning His apostolic church to teach, adding:* “He that heareth you, heareth me.”* Jesus, as far as I can tell, said nothing about establishing a teaching Bible (NEVER to impugn the inerrant word of God of course; goes without saying, but said it just in case) - to be interpreted by each and every Christian as he/she is moved by the holy spirit. With that said:

1. If scripture alone, as the Christians final authority as he/she is moved by the holy spirit (as opposed to any one ecclesial body of teachers, regardless of denomination, as they are moved by the holy spirit) - was/is what Jesus had in mind all along, why not just give the apostles the holy Bible right from the outset, thereby, in theory, mirroring what we see today in the non-Catholic sphere?
2. It seems that so much confusion could have been avoided for the first 15 centuries of Christianity if Jesus would have simply inserted in the Bible: “he that readeth what I writeth, in this Bible, heareth me???” - and then of course start distributing bibles to His fledgling apostolic church, following that up with the passage: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide every Christian into all the truth regarding the teachings found in the holy Bible.

Creating the holy Bible in a single divine occurrence, would have been a piece of cake for God to do!!! Just look at what He did with the five loaves and the two fish!

Peace and blessings,
while your thread does not appear addressed to me as no one is participating for you i will try see if this helps you.
I understand you want to support the oral teaching of the Catholic church against the view of many protestants who hold tight to the text, sorry if i have you wrong but this is the basis i will try some possible suggested answerers.

In point 1 you question why the bible was not given by Yahooshua (pbwh) and in point two you speak as if he did give them a bible.

Through that i see your point.

It is good when thinking about scripture not to drag it into our days understanding.

When Yahooshua (pbwh) was here in flesh there were no printing press, it would take so long to copy scrolls, this is why even the apostles distributed and shared parts of what we now know as the bible.

He also was sent to a people who had the word in their scrolls and orality and was really trying to clarify them to his people.
Guessing you are not Jewish, he was not sent to you but was sent to the chosen people.

I guess you would fall under the gentile description of believers the great apostle Paul (pbuh) was sent to you and indeed began distributing letters to congregations he had influence on.

Now from my experience of protestant people they understand the Catholic church has not always had pious leadership and at times went away from the truth ie flat world vs globe.
If one perceives the church they are in has false hood they would naturally go to what they see as a stable source.
What was written does not change but leaders do.

When a person moves away from the leaders of their day it does not mean they are wanting to move away from the leaders before them but more to move to them, their dead so they grab the books of the bible, scribed and scribed again, translated and translated again desperate to be as G-d wills holding as firm as they can to what source understanding they can get of who G-d is.

IMO the same of people leaving Church can at times fall partly on those in her at that time.

G-d bless you hope this helps

 

[joe370]

Hi Steven, peace and blessings to you as well friend!

Peace and blessings,
while your thread does not appear addressed to me as no one is participating for you i will try see if this helps you.
I understand you want to support the oral teaching of the Catholic church against the view of many protestants who hold tight to the text, sorry if i have you wrong but this is the basis i will try some possible suggested answerers.

Protestants hold to their own oral traditions just as my former protestant church did, but actually, I wanted to leave oral tradition out of the discussion, if that’s OK?

In point 1 you question why the bible was not given by Yahooshua (pbwh)

Yes, I was asking “why the bible was not given by Yahooshua.” And you gave a good reason why Jesus did not do that!

and in point two you speak as if he did give them a bible.

It was a hypothetical.** If sola scriptura was/is a doctrine handed down from Jesus Christ,** then it seems that so much confusion could have been avoided for the first 15 centuries of Christianity if Jesus would have simply put that particular teaching in the bible. It would have made the Protestant’s position a whole lot easier defend., but of course He didn’t, making sola scriptura impossible to defend. in my humble opinion.

He also was sent to a people who had the word in their scrolls and orality and was really trying to clarify them to his people.
Guessing you are not Jewish, he was not sent to you but was sent to the chosen people.

I view all Jewish people as my brothers and sisters, but no, I am not Jewish.

The holy spirit was also sent to Jesus’ established church on Pentecost as well, just as the Torah was given to the Israelites, the chosen people, giving way to the feast of Pentecost.

I guess you would fall under the gentile description of believers the great apostle Paul (pbuh) was sent to you and indeed began distributing letters to congregations he had influence on.

Actually, that would be more of a protestant belief. I don’t believe that of course.

Now from my experience of protestant people they understand the Catholic church has not always had pious leadership and at times went away from the truth ie flat world vs globe.

Well. all churches, regardless of denomination, are pretty much mixed bags. Good and bad in all churches. Weeds and the wheat - right? If the CC steered away from doctrinal truths handed down by Jesus, which of course does not include matters such as a flat world vs globe, then where can the doctrinal truths handed down by Jesus, be found , intact today? Remember John 16:13? To whom was Jesus speaking in that passage? The protestant claim is: infallible truth found in the Bible, cannot be infallibly interpreted which leaves protestants with an inerrant bible with no means to inerrantly interpret it. Can you imagine an infallible math book with no teacher to infallibly discern the mathematical truths found in said math book?

One thing is for sure: if Jesus is not guiding the church He established then truth could absolutely be lost.

If one perceives the church they are in has false hood they would naturally go to what they see as a stable source.

Good point. Who, as a stable source, has the authority, in the end, to reconcile differences when they arise, just as the prophets of old, such as Isaiah, did?

What was written does not change but leaders do.

Agreed.

G-d bless you hope this helps

Thanks for the feedback brother.

 

[Steven_John]

Hi Steven, peace and blessings to you as well friend!

Protestants hold to their own oral traditions just as my former protestant church did, but actually, I wanted to leave oral tradition out of the discussion, if that’s OK?

Thats ok but other than what is held as scripture what will be the for a reference point?

It was a hypothetical.** If sola scriptura was/is a doctrine handed down from Jesus Christ,** then it seems that so much confusion could have been avoided for the first 15 centuries of Christianity if Jesus would have simply put that particular teaching in the bible. It would have made the Protestant’s position a whole lot easier defend., but of course He didn’t, making sola scriptura impossible to defend. in my humble opinion.

Solo scriptura is a complex subject. As we have ruled out what the CC have based on history we have only scripture to discuss.

I view all Jewish people as my brothers and sisters, but no, I am not Jewish.

Amen

The holy spirit was also sent to Jesus’ established church on Pentecost as well, just as the Torah was given to the Israelites, the chosen people, giving way to the feast of Pentecost.

Yes and the fruit is much in the oral traditions we are ruling out.

Actually, that would be more of a protestant belief. I don’t believe that of course.

I was speaking from a biblical point of view not one informed by tradition.

Well. all churches, regardless of denomination, are pretty much mixed bags. Good and bad in all churches. Weeds and the wheat - right?

Amen

If the CC steered away from doctrinal truths handed down by Jesus, which of course does not include matters such as a flat world vs globe, then where can the doctrinal truths handed down by Jesus, be found , intact today?

That’s the root of the division

Remember John 16:13? To whom was Jesus speaking in that passage?

Me

The protestant claim is: infallible truth found in the Bible, cannot be infallibly interpreted which leaves protestants with an inerrant bible with no means to inerrantly interpret it.

Then we get to a question of who holds the spirit? For my opinion that is to be by the individual seeking perfection, they will take council form those who they discern bring good fruit but they will still have to discern. Yahooshua (pbwh) showed the way to The Father his G-d.

One thing is for sure: if Jesus is not guiding the church He established then truth could absolutely be lost.

Amen, how well we submit to the guidance is what brings difference.

Good point. Who, as a stable source, has the authority, in the end, to reconcile differences when they arise, just as the prophets of old, such as Isaiah, did?

Again for me it is the individual, the authority is G-d

Bless you, sorry if i miss your points.