Why not Orthodox?

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Given the apparently universal state of spiritual anarchy in the Catholic Church, I’d say that the current Latin system of papal centralism is an inoperable system.

Pope Francis has taken great pains to highlight his position as Bishop of Rome.
 
Not only are they in Schism with Catholic Teaching, and lack the Catholic notion of Apostolic Succession (that is union with the See of Rome),
The Catholic Church teaches that the Orthodox are “True Curches” and “Sister Churches” and that they have Apostolic succession, therefore, they have a valid Eucharist.
but what is more is they reject clear defined dogma’s of the Church such as the Immaculate conception, and Papal Infallibility.
We Byzantine Catholics have a different understanding of the Immaculate Conception and Rome is fine with that. Actually, Rome encourages us to return to our ancient ecclesiastical heritage.
What is more is that if you look at what the early Christians (here I refer more clearly to the Church Fathers) of the East, you will find that they held the position in relation to Church teaching as the Catholic Church teaches it, and not as the Schismatic Orthodox hold it.
😂😂😂

The last three Popes have noted that the Orthodox do not have to change anything to reestablish full communion. The so called schism is an issue between upper management. Rome, Moscow and Constantinople need to learn to play nice with each other.

ZP
 
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In fact, there is such a thing as a “sister church”, and it is Orthodoxy. The Catechism says so. Kindly get your anti-Orthodoxy in line with papal teaching on the matter.
And no, it’s not a matter of whether the Immaculate Conception is true or not, it is a matter of different understanding. We are obliged as Eastern Catholics to believe in it, but we are not obliged to express it in the same way as Rome. That’s what’s meant by different understanding.
 
There is no such thing as ‘having a different understanding of the Immaculate Conception’
In reality, Eastern Catholics have different understanding of it- but they hold it to be true. It’s just point of view. What is important is to not deny Latin point of view. This is not just their right but also duty, to uphold their own tradition to enrich the Church. There is different understanding of Original Sin in Eastern Catholicism (and Orthodoxy ofc) so they do not profess it same way, but to reject dogma on the other hand, is certainly wrong.
There is no such thing ‘sister churches’ - they are not part of the Church. They do not hold to the apostolic faith and Catholic faith.
Thing is, officially Orthodoxy does not reject anything Latin, in practice they do it a lot though. This is why we do not call them heretics but schismatics. They are not part of the Church in real sense but they are “sister Church” in sense that they hold apostolic succession. There is clear Catholic teaching on that. I too, do not like when people go into heresy of indiferentism mainly when Orthodoxy is concerned, but in the end if they did accept as true (not necessarily as their patrimony) all Latin teachings and accepted supremacy of the Pope, there would not be schism. I know about what Pope Benedict has said but in the end if there is to be unity, it has to be in truth, not in mere compromise.
 
There is no such thing ‘sister churches’ - they are not part of the Church. They do not hold to the apostolic faith and Catholic faith.
They are “Sister Churches.” Read resent documents on ecumenism with the Orthodox. By the way, have you read the documents from Vatican II concerning ecumenism, in particular with the Eastern Churches which are not in communion with Rome?

.”These Churches, although separated from us, possess true sacraments, above all by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy.”
There is no such thing as ‘having a different understanding of the Immaculate Conception’
There sure is and Rome has no problem with it. Vatican II calls on us, Eastern Catholics, to practice our ancient ecclesiastical heritage. That means we are fully Eastern. The Church is much more than the Church of Rome.
What makes the Protestants wrong if that is the case? Why not just say, that 'they have a different teaching on the Eucharist? Or on the virgin birth? etc. . . Logic dictates against such views.
Protestants broke away from the Apostolic Faith. The Orthodox still hold on to this faith. You really need to read UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, in particular the section on the Eastern Churches.
Saying that the Orthodox don’t have to change anything to reestablish full communion doesn’t change any points of reality. They do not agree with the Catholic Church regard Catholic doctrine. Reality takes the first place in this discussion.
Wrong! Then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote, “Rome must not require more from the East than had been formulated and what was lived in the first millennium.”

You need to focus more on what the Catholic Church actually teaches about the Orthodox and less on your pop Roman Catholic apologetics stuff.

ZP
 
“For the doctrine of faith, which God has revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention, to be perfected by human ingenuity. Rather, it has been delivered as a Divine Deposit to the Spouse of Christ, to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared. Hence also, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our Holy Mother the Church has once declared. Nor is that meaning ever to be departed from, under the pretense or pretext of a deeper comprehension of them. Let then the intelligence, science, and wisdom of each and all, of individuals and of the whole Church, in all ages and at all times, increase and flourish in abundance and vigor; but simply in its own proper kind, that is to say, in one and the same doctrine, one and the same sense, one and the same judgment (Vincent of Lerins, Common. n, 28).”

It’s not just non-contradiction of Rome, you have to positively affirm the dogmatic truth of the formulation as is.

You may amplify it with eastern nuances, but that’s it. Ecclesiastical traditions are rubrics and liturgical piety as well as an emphasis in spirituality and a particular vocabulary. But not simply a respectful
Silence toward dogmas you don’t fully have a stomach for. A Catholic positively affirms every dogmatic declaration as formulated.
 
De facto the real issue is that when we in the Catholic Church speak of the “Orthodox church” we forget that the Orthodox differ in belief amongst themselves.
Any break in Eucharistic communion between the Orthodox has to do with politics more than anything else. The early Church did the same. They still recognize each other as canonical Churches. They hold the same faith.
They do reject Catholic teachings. They do reject Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate conception.
There are two levels of theology–the theologia prima (first level theology) and theologia secunda (second level theology); in Greek, the two are called, more significantly, “theologia” and “theoria”. The former is the essential, dogmatic level of theology as contained in the Church’s rule of prayer, which is to say, in the liturgy of the Church, for “lex orandi lex credendi”, the rule of prayer is the rule of belief.

Theologia secunda, on the other hand, is the result of contemplation and reflection upon the theologia prima, and its elaboration into doctrine. Doctrine, however, is culturally, historically, and linguistically conditioned–the experience of each particular Church shapes how it understands the theologia prima. So, as Pope John Paul II noted, doctrine is variable, but the underlying dogmatic faith is transcendent; we simply have to be careful not to conflate the two.

This is why, as a Byzantine Catholic, I do not have to hold to the formulation of doctrine presented by the Church of Rome during the second millennium.
The reality, is that regardless of how anyone wants to call it, the Orthodox do reject Catholic teachings which are clearly defined dogmas of the faith.
Unfortunately, for a number of centuries, the Church of Rome thought of itself in exclusionary terms as the ONLY true Church; therefore, the doctrinal pronouncements of the Church of Rome were often labeled as “dogmatic”, when, in fact, they were particular ONLY to the Church of Rome. Therefore, not everything Roman Catholics consider “dogmatic” really is. It is now understood that, as long as there is agreement on the level of the theologia prima, variety in the theologia secunda is both acceptable and desirable, for a Church that is uniformly Roman (or for that matter, uniformly Byzantine) can make no pretension to ecumenicity or catholicity.

ZP
 
Why do you accept some truths and not others, well the answers is because you believe on the grounds of what you prefer to accept but that isn’t even in line with what it means to believe.
You do realize that I’m Byzantine Catholic? We don’t have to accept the formulation of Roman doctrine and we are just as Catholic as you are. From DECREE ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES OF THE EASTERN RITE ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM, “The Catholic Church holds in high esteem the institutions, liturgical rites, ecclesiastical traditions and the established standards of the Christian life of the Eastern Churches, for in them, distinguished as they are for their venerable antiquity, there remains conspicuous the tradition that has been handed down from the Apostles through the Fathers (1) and that forms part of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church.”

The point being that Eastern Catholics are exactly what the Orthodox Churches are, in every aspect, only we are in communion with Rome. If we don’t have to hold to the formulation of Roman “doctrine” how can you say what you do about the Orthodox?

ZP
 
Being an “Eastern Catholic” does not mean that you are free to reject any single Catholic doctrine.
Not reject Roman doctrine. They are free to formulate as they wish just as long as it is not pushed on us. You should read what Ukrainian Greek Catholic Father Robert Taft S.J. of blessed memory has to say about this subject.
The Eastern Orthodox reject the Filioque, they reject a number of Catholic teachings.
When Vatican II told the Eastern Church to return to what they are, which is Eastern Churches, that means in all things. You cannot be an Eastern Church and believe in the western theology of the Filioque. So we as Eastern Catholics do not reject, we just don’t have to believe it.

ZP
 
Would Easterners also not have to believe in dogmas such as the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. ?
 
Even if one does not become Orthodox, it is a SIN to attempt to convert Orthodox to the Catholic Church. Pope Francis during his visit to Georgia in 2016.
“There is a big sin against ecumenism: proselytism,” said the pontiff. “You must never proselytize the Orthodox. They are our brothers and sisters, disciples of Jesus Christ.”

“Walk together, pray for each other, and do works of charity together when you can,” the pope encouraged. “This is ecumenism. Do not condemn a brother or sister.”
(Joshua J. McElwee, “Francis tells Georgia’s Catholic minority of ‘wonders’ God works in smallness”, National Catholic Reporter , Oct. 1, 2016)
 
Would Easterners also not have to believe in dogmas such as the Assumption
The Eastern Churches have always believed in the Assumption. We celebrate the Dormition of the Mother of God on August 15. Same feast as th Assumption, different name.
the Immaculate Conception
Just not formulated the same way as the Latin doctrine. Here’s a good article from the Melkite Greek Catholic Church on the subject:

Papal Infallibility, etc. ?
That’s the tricky one. Here is what former Patriarch of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church has to say, “We are an Eastern Church in communion with Rome and faithfully so, yet which wants to remain faithful to the pure, Orthodox spiritual tradition. I make bold to say that we are an Orthodox Church with the little or big plus of communion with Rome, with the Pope and our Holy Father Benedict XVI who presides in primacy and charity. Treat us as a real Eastern Church, just as you would the Orthodox on the day when the much longed for union takes place!" -Patriarch Gregorios III Laham, on letter "ecclesiology and ecumenism

ZP
 
I have heard of Eastern Catholics having to defend their Catholicity to Roman Catholics before, but this is the first time I’ve actually seen it.
To all: Being an Eastern Catholic does not mean we exist at the mercy of Rome or because of Rome’s good will. Rome enjoys primacy and is the Mother Church as it is the See of St. Peter but that does not mean the Eastern Churches are “ second class Catholics”.
@Bobby87 Your use of the phrase “ Eastern Catholics are not free to reject Catholic doctrine” shows your true, and very mistaken, view of the Eastern Catholic Churches. One, the doctrine of the Eastern Church is Catholic. Two, Latin expressions of that doctrine, while perfectly valid, are just not used in the East. Not unaccepted. Not used. The East expresses it’s doctrine differently, but the primary theology underlying both Eastern and Western expressions is the same. And as for Papal Infallibility, it’s not like Eastern Catholics left Orthodoxy because they did not believe the Pope was supreme.
The Eastern Churches are just as Catholic as the Western Church. Catholics are not Roman by default, and Easterners are not bizarre but tolerated should-be-Latin-but-are-not Christians. If this was the West’s attitude to Eastern Christians back in the years preceding the Great Schism then one cannot help but think that the Orthodox split is almost justifiable.
 
It is not that the easterners should be Latin. It’s simply a dogmatic fact that the Latin formulations of particular dogmas in Ecumenical councils are irreformable. They are owed more than a respectful silence; that is the heresy of Jansenism.

The Dogmas propounded by Rome are owed intellectual submission and should be positively engaged by the east to show that the SUBSTANCE of the dogma is patristically and liturgically embraced by each particular Church. That’s legitimate eastern theology.

Here is an example- the immaculate conception. We all know the definition and the point- Panagia is conceived without the stain of original sin, nor is she implicated in the guilt of Adam.

To demonstrate the universality of such a dogma, one can look to the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which says of St. Mary- “Thou art virgin in body and in soul.”

Now, a virgin body, we are all born with, but a virgin soul? This is a soul inviolate- sin did not penetrate this soul, not even original sin.

So the essence of the immaculate conception as defined by Rome can clearly be seen to have been held even by one of the most obscure apostolic Churches to this day.
 
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Photios and Gregory Palamas are both commemorated by Byzantine Catholics as saints.
 
Perhaps unwisely. The denial of the theological truth of the Filioque is not a promising sign, nor is Palamas’ inferior kind of divinity (theotes) which interacts with us, but which the essence of God excels by an infinite degree. Sorry, if the Essence of God excels his divinity in act by an infinite degree, you have two gods.

Palamas’ entire problem is he makes energies synonymous (at least virtually) with emanations of the Godhead. He treats energies like nouns, things.

This is false even according to St. John of Damascus. According to St. Damascene energy is the activity of a nature, and the nature of a thing is synonymous with its essence.

Therefore energy, activity, is the act of the divine essence. Energies are VERBS whose subject is the Tri-hypostatic God, absolutely simple and one in essence. They are not nouns, not transcendable emanations of the Godhead.
 
Palamas doesn’t divide the deity. Palamas reinforced Apostolic theology. Latin Popes at councils made distinctions between the essence and energy of God.

Have you read The Deification of Man: St. Gregory Palamas and the Orthodox Tradition?

ZP
 
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Palamas apostolic? Which apostles? Which Fathers? Saint Basil? Who else?

It’s not that there’s no distinction, it’s that the distinction isn’t REAL, it’s a distinction in the creature, not in God. Show me one father who teaches a real distinction between God in Act and God’s essence.
 
You really need to study the Roman Catholic faith, and what those guys in Rome with funny white beanies have to say.
There is no such thing ‘sister churches’ - they are not part of the Church. They do not hold to the apostolic faith and Catholic faith.
This directly contradicts papal teaching.
There is no such thing as ‘having a different understanding of the Immaculate Conception’
As does this.
Saying that the Orthodox don’t have to change anything to reestablish full communion doesn’t change any points of reality.
Tell that to “Cardinal Ratzinger” . . .
 
The dogmas propounded by Rome are not given mere “respectful silence” in the East.Rather, we live them. We cannot be silent on dogma, it is the truth of the Church. We merely express and understand these dogmas differently- doesn’t mean we don’t accept them, or ignore them respectfully. And the dogmas of Rome are not Roman dogmas only,they are Catholic dogmas, the dogma of both East and West. You yourself gave the excellent example of the Panagia, and how they understand the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. The point is we are not obliged to refer to it as “the Immaculate Conception” in the East,(although I, a Latinized Maronite, do), merely to believe the truth underlying it: that Mary, Mother of God, was concieved without sin.
 
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