Why not Orthodox?

[StAugustine]

Let me make it clear I love the eastern fathers. Reading all through Dionysios right now, here’s a fact- the Orthodox abuse them to further doctrinal deviation.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Hmmm… Blaming people today for events that occurred 800 years ago. Sounds perfectly logical.

Thanks - I needed a good laugh.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Are you sure it’s not the other way around?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Are you sure it’s not the other way around?

Fun fact, Maronites are original Church of Antioch (local Christian population), and Antioch is one of the oldest Churches in history of Christianity. Maronites are far “more ancient” than other Churches. Yes, latinization during crusades happened but in that age, latinization and easternization were often not seen as necessarily bad things, because they wouldn’t go to far as differences were not as vague.

 

[Salibi]

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean. Eastern Catholic Churches were Orthodox before rejoining the Church.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Not all, Maronites never left Catholic Church for example. Melkites were considered Eastern Orthodox but never formally broke with Rome until they “rejoined” Catholic Church in 1790’s.

Also, Eastern Orthodox were Eastern Catholics before Great Schism. That is what we are implying- original tradition of Eastern Churches was to be Eastern Catholic.

 

[Salibi]

Maronites never left, but there was a period where contact with Rome was lost due to Muslim subjugation. This was reestablished during the Crusades. I have to take your word about the Melkites, as I don’t know much about them. And I suppose you’re right, I was actually thinking about the Orthodox after the schism rather than before. I see you guys’ point now.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Maronites never left, but there was a period where contact with Rome was lost due to Muslim subjugation.

Yes, but that wouldn’t mean schism. Maronites remained faithful to bride of Christ the whole time. Maronites, who were separated from other Christians and did not know about Schism, “joined” (remained) Catholics after Great Schism. Funnily enough, this fact spoke for Catholicism for me when I converted.

 

[Salibi]

I’m not so sure we didn’t know about the Schism. But yea, we did reaffirm (reaffirm, as we never broke off) our communion with Rome when the Crusades came rolling.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I’m not so sure we didn’t know about the Schism.

Oh well, I guess I’m not sure either, that part was mostly my imagination I guess but my point stands

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The Orthodox were Eastern Catholics before they jumped ship off the Barque of Peter. Maybe they should consider getting back on before the deluge?

 

[AlNg]

I agree…I think it’s a big reason why so many Eastern Catholics end up in the Orthodox Church. I know a few who have gone that route and I admit it’s tempting to me at times as well.

Eastern Catholics who go to Roman Catholic schools are told that they must make the sign of the cross the Roman way. That is the Catholic way of making the sign of the cross.

 

[AlNg]

We can not bury the truth to unite. We must unitr in truth. Unity without agreement on truth would be not only fragile but also sacrilegious.

Roman Catholics themselves disagree on the “truth” .
Some say Limbo is true, others say no.
Some say torture was acceptable, others say no.
etc. etc.

The Orthodox were Eastern Catholics before they jumped ship off the Barque of Peter.

The Orthodox did not jump ship. They were pushed out of the ship by the Roman Catholic authorities. They were excommunicated in 1054 for several reasons such as they had a married clergy and they did not say the filioque. The excommunication was in place for about 900 years until it was lifted by Pope Paul VI.
Reading through this thread, it appears that there will never be a reunion between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Some Roman Catholics seem to take a superior and hostile attitude toward the Eastern Orthodox Church. They don’t look at the shortcomings of their own Church. For example, in a recent poll, 67% of Roman Catholics in the US favor SS marriage. But in Russia, which is predominantly Russian Orthodox, , only about 5% favor SS marriage.

U.S. Catholics more likely now to support same-sex marriage; abortion attitudes comparatively stable | Pew Research Center

 

[AlNg]

Blaming people today for events that occurred 800 years ago.

In the fourth crusade, there were many precious artifacts that were stolen from the Greek Orthodox churches and placed in Roman Catholic churches and remain there even today. Is it right to put stolen articles in a Roman Catholic Church and not attempt to return them for 800 years?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Roman Catholics themselves disagree on the “truth” .
Some say Limbo is true, others say no.
Some say torture was acceptable, others say no.
etc. etc.

Orthodoxy has vital parts on disagreement about rebaptizing or toll houses too, and those are more doctrinal than ours.

They were excommunicated in 1054

Nope, they were not. Decree had no authority. On the other hand, Patriarch of Constantinople did excommunicate Legates validly. However, Orthodox have left the Church themselves- they were not pushed. They supported schismatic who stepped on Eucharist, or did not try to deny allegations. We can see this on the fact Maronites and Melkites did not excommunicate the Pope nor did they renounce the unity with Pope, and Melkites did remain in dual communion until they left Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople’s influence- and Constantinople employed Muslims to try and suppress the Melkite Catholics. Maronites, most ancient Church there is probably, did remain in communion with Catholic Church after being separated from political influence of Byzantium because of Muslim invasions.

Reading through this thread, it appears that there will never be a reunion between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

Because in your mind, reunion is just Latin Church becoming another autocephalous Church of Orthodoxy and holding primacy way Ecumenical Patriarch does now. There is not hostile relationship, there is affirmation of truth. It would be same as saying that your arguments about Filioque or torture are hostile, when they are clearly just part of conversation.

In the fourth crusade, there were many precious artifacts that were stolen from the Greek Orthodox churches and placed in Roman Catholic churches and remain there even today. Is it right to put stolen articles in a Roman Catholic Church and not attempt to return them for 800 years?

Again, Fourth Crusade was not sanctioned by Pope, was denounced by him and things such as artifacts were stolen many times by many people- those were spoils of war, nothing else. By that logic, you could demand Constantinople back and we, Catholics, could demand Bulgaria back as Patriarch Photius did steal it’s jurisdiction not only uncanonically, but also by military force. Many of those artifacts were in-fact returned to your churches by the way.

What I am really getting tired of is refuting same arguments of yours all over again, while English is clearly not your first language (it isn’t mine either), I doubt you do not understand what I am saying- you just choose to ignore it or refute my arguments with Orthodox position that is not properly supported by any outwards arguments.

 

[babochka]

babochka:

Blaming people today for events that occurred 800 years ago.

In the fourth crusade, there were many precious artifacts that were stolen from the Greek Orthodox churches and placed in Roman Catholic churches and remain there even today. Is it right to put stolen articles in a Roman Catholic Church and not attempt to return them for 800 years?

In more recent history, we can look at numerous Greek Catholic churches in Eastern Europe that were handed over to the Orthodox by the Communists. After communism fell, the Orthodox Churches were required to give the churches back to the Greek Catholics. In many cases, before doing so, they destroyed interiors of the churches.

What response is called for here? Forgiveness. If we are to move forward, we must forgive. For the sake of our salvation and theirs, we must forgive.

 

[babochka]

Eastern Catholics who go to Roman Catholic schools are told that they must make the sign of the cross the Roman way. That is the Catholic way of making the sign of the cross.

This was certainly true when I was a kid. I don’t know to what extent it is still happening because there is much more knowledge and understanding of Eastern Catholics than there was in the 1970s.

 

[AlNg]

They were excommunicated in 1054

Nope, they were not.

"…But as far as Michael, who is called patriarch through an abuse of the term, and the backers of his foolishness are concerned, innumerable tares of heresies are daily sown in its midst…
Like Nicolaitists, they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers of the sacred altar;
Like Severians, they say that the law of Moses is accursed;
Like Pneumatomachoi or Theomachoi, they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son;…
For these errors and many others committed by them, Michael himself, although admonished by the letters of our lord Pope Leo, contemptuously refused to repent…
by the authority of the holy and individuated Trinity and the apostolic see, whose embassy we are performing, and of all the orthodox fathers from the seven councils and of the entire catholic Church, we thus subscribe to the following anathema which the most reverend pope has proclaimed upon Michael and his followers unless they should repent…
Michael, neophyte patriarch through abuse of office, who took on the monastic habit out of fear of men alone and is now accused by many of the worst of crimes; and with him Leo called bishop of Achrida; Constantine, chaplain of this Michael, who trampled the sacrifice of the Latins with profane feet; and all their followers in the aforementioned errors and acts of presumption: Let them be anathema Maranatha with the Simoniacs, Valesians, Arians, Donatists, Nicolaitists, Severians, Pneumatomachoi, Manichaeans, Nazarenes, and all the heretics — nay, with the devil himself and his angels, unless they should repent. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.

Nope, they were not.

JOINT CATHOLIC-ORTHODOX DECLARATION
OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
AND THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH ATHENAGORAS I

December 7, 1965
" Among the obstacles along the road of the development of these fraternal relations of confidence and esteem, there is the memory of the decisions, actions and painful incidents which in 1054 resulted in the sentence of excommunication leveled against the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and two other persons by the legate of the Roman See under the leadership of Cardinal Humbertus, legates who then became the object of a similar sentence pronounced by the patriarch and the Synod of Constantinople.

1. One cannot pretend that these events were not what they were during this very troubled period of history. …"
   …“They likewise regret and remove both from memory and from the midst of the Church the sentences of excommunication which followed these events, the memory of which has influenced actions up to our day and has hindered closer relations in charity; and they commit these excommunications to oblivion.”

 

[Salibi]

I believe they must have known since the Eastern Christians subjugated by the Muslims were Eastern Orthodox. A point in us Maronites’ favour , no? We remained loyal to Rome in the face of both Muslim and Byzantine Christian opposition.

 

[Salibi]

Hello,
Limbo is neither a doctrine nor a dogma of the Church. The Church has given theologians free rein to postulate about limbo. We are allowed to disagree about it. I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet.
Also, some Roman Catholics are ignorant of the Eastern Catholic Churches and don’t understand our traditions. They are deplorably undereducated about Eastern Catholicism. That is their fault, not the Church’s. Both methods of making the sign of the cross are Catholic. This is Church teaching.