Why Not ReUnite with Our Traditional Bretheren

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Hello TNT:

Whew, you have certainly said some things that I must ponder. I do not intend to oppose St. Thomas.

Note, however, that I said that these are essentially states rather than places: I did not maintain that they are not places. This makes me think of whether created sopirits exist in time: we say they are essentially timeless, even though, having the possibility of change they live in aeviternity, something like time, in that it is for them, as time is for us, a measure of change.

I did note that heaven and hell differ from purgatory in that at some time they will contain bodies, and heaven already does contain at least 2 bodies, albeit glorified ones.

I also think that a soul’s being “in” a body is not an argument that that a soul needs to be “in” a place, since spirits are said to be “in” whatever place their operation is manifest. On the other hand the soul, though spiritual, is not precisely a spirit, since it is the “form” of a particular body and is not complete without that body.

On the other hand spirits are indeed often tied to places. Let me think on this further while I watch this discussion.

Regards,
Joannes

P.S. Perhaps you can explain to me why the East keeps railing that purgatory is not a place? Why do they care so much whether it is a place or a state?
 
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Joannes:
Hello TNT:
Note, however, that I said that these are essentially states rather than places: I did not maintain that they are not places. This makes me think of whether created spirits exist in time: we say they are essentially timeless, even though, having the possibility of change they live in aeviternity, something like time, in that it is for them, as time is for us, a measure of change.
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The point I was making is you don’t simply bow to any comment by a pope. I used John XXII as an example, but there are many more, including one who preached that a pope is a saint because he holds the office of a saint. Therefore, the sainthood comes with the office.:whacky:
The Church is very fully formed in its theology and the perennial teachings of the Magisterium are not difficult to locate. If a pope makes a comment of apparent certitude ie “purgatory is not a place”, it requires some substantiation if it is in apparent opposition the the Faith.
If it appears in opposition, then it probably is a theological persuasion and not de fide. That’s all, folks.
I also think that a soul’s being “in” a body is not an argument that that a soul needs to be “in” a place, since spirits are said to be “in” whatever place their operation is manifest. (like purgatory).
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St Thomas would be proud of your deduction. Any locale in which it is manifesting itself is a place.
P.S. Perhaps you can explain to me why the East keeps railing that purgatory is not a place? Why do they care so much whether it is a place or a state?
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The East must be looked at as a political persuasion as much as it is a religion. For the most part their hierarchy is very authoritarian and jealous of their position of authority, and very concerned about defections to the Catholic Eastern Church. So, motive in my opinion, is far from pure theology. A qibble is another wedge they can use. The laity of orthodoxy is far closer to rejoining Rome than the hierarchy, by many quantums IF the hierarchy would give them room to think.
Kinda like Mormons are held by severe oversight including group pressure and material penalties, such as complete loss of family contact.
 
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TNT:
Very well, does a soul “leave the body” at death? If so, was it then in the body?
When a person dies the soul goes to “no place” for that is all that is left of “not a place”? If a Baptised infant dies and goes straight to heaven, is that “not a place”? If heaven can be a place for angels and saints’ souls, then why is it impossible for there to be another place for incorporeal souls? Heaven has a materiality otherwise the body of Mary could not be “in” it.
Maybe St Thomas could shed some light on this?
Supplement

Question 69
Article 1
Whether places are appointed to receive souls after death?

Entire discourse is at:
history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/350ta.html
Excerpts in context:
No offense, but I’ll just hang out with my Patron Saint and Doctor, and you can hang out on the Wed Audiences.
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IMO, we use prepositions such as “in” because our experience of living in space and time requires it - even though we are not limited in all respects to living in space and time.​

So perhaps use of prepositions in talking of the reality in which we do not “yet” live, is an economy with language - it is language we have to use, because we are speaking of what we do not really know, as though we do know it; so we speak of the unfamiliar, in a way more suited to this more familiar world in which we live at present.
For unlike God, we are not transcendent ##
 
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.
 
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YuRa:
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.
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If your post gets deleted it will be becuase of its total ignorance of Catholic Teaching.

Faith without works is a dead Faith.
Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!
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Show me where in the Bible it speaks of sola scriptura. Show me where in the Bible it lists the books of the Bible.
 
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YuRa:
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.
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Did you paste this on all the threads?YuRa you are very angry and that is sad:nope: You will find life more enjoyabable if you lighten up and allow God to do His job:tsktsk: Meanwhile,as I said I will pray for you as well as the other posters.God Bless
 
The Church is reaching out to the schismatic Traditionalists with open arms. When they’re ready to open their arms and embrace the Papacy that they turned their backs on, there is a place waiting for them in the Church. This isn’t exactly a difficult process.

There is much more work to be done with the Orthodox, and we have a lot of social and political damage to heal, so more effort is being put into that front. With Protestants we’re working on even being considered Christians by many of them, so there’s more work there as well. There is no work on our parts to be done for the schismatic Traditionalists: we allow for Tridentine Masses and traditionalist values. It’s up to them to accept the Papacy again. Not a lot of bridge mending to be done on the part of the Church, so you won’t see a huge outpouring of resources. They know where we live, and they’re welcome home at any time.
 
Boy, your hostility towards the Traditionalists really shows through here on your post, while your love and understanding of a sect such as the Protestants in which churches were taken over, people killed, villages sacked during the reformation by Luther and Calvin, and the Orthodox who ran away over semantics in the Nicene Creed in 1054 and because they were not allowed a vote overwhelms me. As far as I have read, the Lefebverists have yet to hammer and nail their demands on the church doors and set fire to the Catholic Bibles, that we translated at our own blood, and then rewrite them, pick and choose the books they deem fit, go off and marry a nun, and form their own religion. Hmmm, I do think that the comparisons dont quite rank.
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Ghosty:
The Church is reaching out to the schismatic Traditionalists with open arms. When they’re ready to open their arms and embrace the Papacy that they turned their backs on, there is a place waiting for them in the Church. This isn’t exactly a difficult process.

There is much more work to be done with the Orthodox, and we have a lot of social and political damage to heal, so more effort is being put into that front. With Protestants we’re working on even being considered Christians by many of them, so there’s more work there as well. There is no work on our parts to be done for the schismatic Traditionalists: we allow for Tridentine Masses and traditionalist values. It’s up to them to accept the Papacy again. Not a lot of bridge mending to be done on the part of the Church, so you won’t see a huge outpouring of resources. They know where we live, and they’re welcome home at any time.
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ByzCath:
Show me where in the Bible it lists the books of the Bible.
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It’s right here in my Bible on page xiv.

Is this how a fundamentalist conducts a drive-by?

CrusaderNY
I did not see anything “hostile” in Ghosty’s post. I read “open arms”, though. What did you find hostile?
 
Any thoughts on why this is a taboo subject???

Taboo? The subject is broached on this thread. Yes it can be discussed.

Do you think the Protest ants will admit that Christ made St. Peter the earthly Vicar of the Church? I don’t think so.

Will the Orthodox submit to the Pope? I don’t think so.

Will Islam say Jesus was truely Devine? I don’t think so.

Will the Roman Catholic Church change it’s Doctrines? I don’t think so. To dilute the Church will be to destroy it!
 
CrusaderNY: I have a hard time seeing where you got some kind of love for Protestantism from my post. I did say, after all, that many of them don’t even consider us Christians. My point is that there IS a lot of work to be done with Protestants, which is why the Church is working. There is little to no work to be done with the Traditionalists. We don’t have centuries of conflict to get past, we have a very simple issue to resolve, and that MUST be done by the Traditionalists. Accept the Tridentine Mass the Church offers, accept the Pope and the Papacy, and you’re already there.

I don’t have much antipathy towards Traditionalists. Far less than I hold towards Protestantism. In fact, I would much prefer to go to legitimate traditionalist Masses than what I see passing as Novus Ordo half the time. If my area had a convenient classic Mass, I would attend every week. I’m just saying that there isn’t much for the Catholic Church to apologize for or even work on in regards to Traditionalists. You left, you can come back. What more do you want from us?

My dislike for Protestant heresies is stuff of legend in my personal social circles (ask Giennensis), but I don’t find this place to be suitable for me to vent, espescially when many Protestants are coming here to honestly learn about the Church. As for the Orthodox, many have already begun coming back to the fullness of the Church, and I thank God for that. The commitment that our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters have shown to the Church through all of its adversity should be admired, and every Western Catholic can learn something from them. The Church is healthier and happier with them than it ever was without them, I absolutely believe that. I don’t see a full on return of the Orthodox anytime soon, but it’s something we should always desperately strive for, espescially since many of the perceived problems with Dogma have already been resolved in the case of Eastern Catholics. They prove that such reconciliation is both possible and highly desireable.
 
Ghosty, if I misunderstood I stand corrected. God bless you, I just feel that there seems to be a double standard with the Trads, whom I do sympthize with, but do not agree in leaving the church, as not even going into going into the correctness of leaving the church, the church can only be strong if we have a left , a middle and a right, and right now we only have a left and a middle , though I guess people like me would be the right. God bless you
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Ghosty:
CrusaderNY: I have a hard time seeing where you got some kind of love for Protestantism from my post. I did say, after all, that many of them don’t even consider us Christians. My point is that there IS a lot of work to be done with Protestants, which is why the Church is working. There is little to no work to be done with the Traditionalists. We don’t have centuries of conflict to get past, we have a very simple issue to resolve, and that MUST be done by the Traditionalists. Accept the Tridentine Mass the Church offers, accept the Pope and the Papacy, and you’re already there.

I don’t have much antipathy towards Traditionalists. Far less than I hold towards Protestantism. In fact, I would much prefer to go to legitimate traditionalist Masses than what I see passing as Novus Ordo half the time. If my area had a convenient classic Mass, I would attend every week. I’m just saying that there isn’t much for the Catholic Church to apologize for or even work on in regards to Traditionalists. You left, you can come back. What more do you want from us?

My dislike for Protestant heresies is stuff of legend in my personal social circles (ask Giennensis), but I don’t find this place to be suitable for me to vent, espescially when many Protestants are coming here to honestly learn about the Church. As for the Orthodox, many have already begun coming back to the fullness of the Church, and I thank God for that. The commitment that our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters have shown to the Church through all of its adversity should be admired, and every Western Catholic can learn something from them. The Church is healthier and happier with them than it ever was without them, I absolutely believe that. I don’t see a full on return of the Orthodox anytime soon, but it’s something we should always desperately strive for, espescially since many of the perceived problems with Dogma have already been resolved in the case of Eastern Catholics. They prove that such reconciliation is both possible and highly desireable.
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Gottle of Geer said:
## IMO, we use prepositions such as “in” because our experience of living in space and time requires it - even though we are not limited in all respects to living in space and time.

So perhaps use of prepositions in talking of the reality in which we do not “yet” live, is an economy with language - it is language we have to use, because we are speaking of what we do not really know, as though we do know it; so we speak of the unfamiliar, in a way more suited to this more familiar world in which we live at present.
For unlike God, we are not transcendent ##
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From Sister Lucy’s Memoirs:
**The vision of hell. **
Code: 
 Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and **souls in human form, like transparent burning embers**, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror. 

   We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly: 

 “**You have seen** hell where the souls of poor sinners go.
**
**
Our Lady of Fatima, third apparition:
When you pray the Rosary, say after each mystery:
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.
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TNT: That vision is a private revelation, and not binding. Personally, I don’t believe at all in the Hell that Lucy described. Visions can also be symbolic. There is no reason to believe that such a vision was not given to impress upon the children the suffering of Hell, rather than the literal reality of it.
 
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