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I was looking on wikipedia recently and I discovered there are 2 Catholic patriarchs of Antioch - 1 is Melkite Catholic and the other is Maronite Catholic.

My question is why does the Catholic church hold 2 parrallel patriarchs of Antioch? Is this intentional or is this in the process of being resolved?

Do Melkite Catholics or Maronite Catholics on this forum see both Catholic groups merging in the future?

God bless.
 
I was looking on wikipedia recently and I discovered there are 2 Catholic patriarchs of Antioch - 1 is Melkite Catholic and the other is Maronite Catholic.

My question is why does the Catholic church hold 2 parrallel patriarchs of Antioch? Is this intentional or is this in the process of being resolved?

Do Melkite Catholics or Maronite Catholics on this forum see both Catholic groups merging in the future?

God bless.
The Maronite Church and the Melkite Church represent very different traditions and cultures, and they also represent different histories. The thing is that both traditions and cultures are valid and Apostolic, but divided by circumstances of history.

The Catholic Communion recognizes the importance and validity of both traditions and Churches, and since they both claimed descent from the Patriarchate of Antioch, both have Patriarchs of Antioch.

It’s not considered something that needs to be resolved because it’s not a distinction between two things that are really the same, but rather of two things that are different but which occupy the same worldly location; the Maronites are not Byzantine, and the Melkites are not Syriacs. To ask either to give up what they are to submit to the other would be an insult to the Fathers and Saints that produced both traditions.

Peace and God bless!
 
There are actually 3, not 2, Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch 😃

Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch

Maronite Catholic Patriarch

Syriac Catholic Patriarch

God bless,

Rony
 
The Syrian Catholic Patriarch’s resignation was just accepted by the Supreme Pontiff. He’s 77 years old, so his “time was up.”
 
I was looking on wikipedia recently and I discovered there are 2 Catholic patriarchs of Antioch - 1 is Melkite Catholic and the other is Maronite Catholic.

My question is why does the Catholic church hold 2 parrallel patriarchs of Antioch? Is this intentional or is this in the process of being resolved?

Do Melkite Catholics or Maronite Catholics on this forum see both Catholic groups merging in the future?

God bless.
Each heads a separate branch of the Catholic faith. Each is tasked to keep to a specific tradition… not something that can be shared by combining.

By the same token, however, they also work together already, by being part of the Catholic Church.

If anything, we are likely to see more patriarchates erected, rather than see extant ones combined.
 
There is no reason the various churches could not have one Patriarch. There could be one patriarchal administration for the Melkites, Maronites, Syriacs and Latins to cover the traditional Patriarchal geographic region of Antioch. It would be appropriate and correct according to the ancient canons.

I don’t believe it will ever happen though.

Michael
 
There is no reason the various churches could not have one Patriarch. There could be one patriarchal administration for the Melkites, Maronites, Syriacs and Latins to cover the traditional Patriarchal geographic region of Antioch. It would be appropriate.

I don’t believe it will ever happen though.

Michael
This is what I was implying. 1 patriarch for all 3 groups - I wasnt asking 2 of the groups to be dissolved in the traditions of the other.

Also in my recent reading I read that the first Maronite Patriarch of Antioch was never even officially ordained as a bishop, let alone patriarch, and so their apostolic succession to the juristiction of Antioch is in question. Is this true?

Is this current condition seen as canonical? Can the Catholic church have overlapping juristictions?

God bless.
 
The Maronite Church and the Melkite Church represent very different traditions and cultures, and they also represent different histories. The thing is that both traditions and cultures are valid and Apostolic, but divided by circumstances of history.

The Catholic Communion recognizes the importance and validity of both traditions and Churches, and since they both claimed descent from the Patriarchate of Antioch, both have Patriarchs of Antioch.

It’s not considered something that needs to be resolved because it’s not a distinction between two things that are really the same, but rather of two things that are different but which occupy the same worldly location; the Maronites are not Byzantine, and the Melkites are not Syriacs. To ask either to give up what they are to submit to the other would be an insult to the Fathers and Saints that produced both traditions.

Peace and God bless!
As a Maronite I see what you are saying but I also think it is very problematic. Do we have to have seperate jurisdictions? Must there be three patriarchs in Antioch? An essential aspect of Christianity is the oneness of the Church. One bishop and one Eucharist. What bothers me about this situation is that it is almost like there are competing traditions within the same area. You have one church which is obedient to one heirarchy and then maybe a the nearest church in the same city is obedient to a different jurisdiction. Couldn’t various different liturgies and traditions be handed on under the same patriarch? It has been like this in the past(I know there were churches which followed the Latin ways in Constantinople at the time of the Great Schism). It only became a problem when the various traditions became exclusionary to any other thought process other than their own. I think that we should be working toward the unity of the patriarchate.
 
This is what I was implying. 1 patriarch for all 3 groups - I wasnt asking 2 of the groups to be dissolved in the traditions of the other.
Yes, it could work.

But I would reiterate that the Latins resident within the patriarchal territory should be included as well. That makes four.

I am not sure where the Armenians would fit into the scheme of things. Probably best left alone.
Also in my recent reading I read that the first Maronite Patriarch of Antioch was never even officially ordained as a bishop, let alone patriarch, and so their apostolic succession to the juristiction of Antioch is in question. Is this true?
If there are any Maronites around reading this, perhaps they can weigh in.

I have no idea.

It would be best to provide a reference for that assertion and context as well if possible. Nevertheless, if the second was properly ordained I don’t see a problem.
Is this current condition seen as canonical? Can the Catholic church have overlapping juristictions?

God bless.
The Catholic church can do whatever it pleases, including ignoring the ancient canons when convenient. It is one of the big advantages of not being in communion with Orthodox.

Michael
 
Also in my recent reading I read that the first Maronite Patriarch of Antioch was never even officially ordained as a bishop, let alone patriarch, and so their apostolic succession to the juristiction of Antioch is in question. Is this true?
I don’t think apostolic succession is simply based on the apostolic character of your predecessors. Nicea stipulates that each bishop must be ordained by atleast three bishops. Even if what you heard is true I think it would be irrelevant.
Is this current condition seen as canonical? Can the Catholic church have overlapping juristictions?

God bless.
I think it is a problem that must be solved. The EO Church has a similar problem in the US with the OCA and the Antiochians and the Russian Orthodox. I think in a sense though it is necessary because a dogmatic type of mindset that wants to dogmatize every thought process within a particular tradition. This is a problem in various different traditions. We must respect that there are various different ways of seeing the one truth that might all be true.
 
Hi Jimmy!
I think it is a problem that must be solved. The EO Church has a similar problem in the US with the OCA and the Antiochians and the Russian Orthodox.
So true!

Terrible, there is no excuse, and even less excusable than the overlapping Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in North America because Orthodoxy is committed to the canons forbidding it.

It highlights the weakness in all of us. Hopefully the work of Christ continues… 😊
 
Hi Jimmy!
So true!

Terrible, there is no excuse, and even less excusable than the overlapping Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in North America because Orthodoxy is committed to the canons forbidding it.

It highlights the weakness in all of us. Hopefully the work of Christ continues… 😊
I don’t know if I would say it is any worse than the EC’s in North America. I think it is a problem either way. But I think with the EC’s it is almost necessary for the present because much of the Catholic Church has a dogmatic approach that would not allow for the various traditions to survive. I think that Catholics need to realize the mystery within the faith. I don’t think it would be possible to solve the problem of jurisdiction until there is a greater respect for the various traditions. But it is something we need to look toward.
 
As a Maronite I see what you are saying but I also think it is very problematic. Do we have to have seperate jurisdictions? Must there be three patriarchs in Antioch? An essential aspect of Christianity is the oneness of the Church. One bishop and one Eucharist. What bothers me about this situation is that it is almost like there are competing traditions within the same area. You have one church which is obedient to one heirarchy and then maybe a the nearest church in the same city is obedient to a different jurisdiction. Couldn’t various different liturgies and traditions be handed on under the same patriarch? It has been like this in the past(I know there were churches which followed the Latin ways in Constantinople at the time of the Great Schism). It only became a problem when the various traditions became exclusionary to any other thought process other than their own. I think that we should be working toward the unity of the patriarchate.
The question is this: would you entrust your entire tradition to a Latin Patriarch? Such a solution certainly didn’t work out for the Byzantine Catholics in the U.S. under Bishop Ireland, to put it mildly. So many of the problems we complain about today with regards to loss of traditions is precisely due to this mixing of prerogatives, the upholding of your own tradition and Church while being responsible for others you can’t possibly fully integrate and understand. The bottom line is that it is much different being the Patriarch of Latins versus being Patriarch of Melkites, or Patriarch of Maronites, or what have you. What’s more, when such a move WAS made in the past, with the Latin Patriarchates in the East, it has been rightly decried as crime by Eastern Christians.

Let’s look at it another way: how much has the Antiochian Church been altered by its close association with Constantinople, and the Constantinople-supporting Antiochian Patriarch (as opposed to the Syriac-supporting one). The Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox, former Syriacs now utterly Grecofied, are a perfect example of what happens when the focus is on ecclesial simplicity rather than maintenence of valid traditions; Greeks being the Patriarchs of Antioch made the Antiochian Churches Greek.

This isn’t to say that there is anything wrong with the Melkite/Antiochian tradition, indeed I’m a participant in it, but we can’t deny that it is because of this kind of proposal that the Melkite Church is Greek and not Syriac. Had all of the Syriac people followed the proposal being put forth here, you wouldn’t even have the Maronite Church and tradition you celebrate and defend today. How much of the authentic and ancient traditions of the Middle East would have been lost distinct hierarchies had not been maintained?

The Catholic Church IS moving towards a model that incorporates a more regional identity while maintaining the individual characters of the various Apostolic traditions, and that is the model of the National Synod or Conference of Bishops. This could possibly be a solution to this issue. I’m not convinced, however, that it’s an issue that is really a problem at all. It is not the model of the Ancient Church, but then the model of the Ancient Church was hardly the model that was established by the Apostles but was rather a convenient approach taken as the Catholic Church became Imperial. Our Church adapts organizationally to the times it finds itself in, and I see no problem with that at all.
It has been like this in the past(I know there were churches which followed the Latin ways in Constantinople at the time of the Great Schism).
Yes, and when controversy over the practice of Latin traditions erupted just before the Schism the unleavened Eucharist was removed from the Latin tabernacles and trampled. It was precisely the problems that grew out of the set-up being proposed here that LED to the split of 1054 in the first place (similar occurances happened to Greek practitioners in the West); the Papal delegation went initially to get the Patriarch of Constantinople to respect and defend the traditions of his Latin subjects, and things devolved into gross accusations and anathemazations. History has shown that maintaining various traditions under a single Patriarch is all but impossible. 😦

The current EO situation in the U.S. is quite a bit different because they all belong to one general tradition, what Catholics generally refer to as the Byzantine or Greek. There wouldn’t be as much of an issue of maintaining various valid traditions under one head if their jurisdictions were dissolved into one; what would remain would be the ethnic identity and preferences of various parishes, which can much more easily be maintained when they occur within a single ecclesial tradition (just as the different Latin groups maintained their own during the last couple of centuries in the U.S., yet had a single hierarchy).

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty, I see what you are saying and I agree to a large degree. Yes, at the time of the schism the patriarch had the Eucharist taken from the tabernacle and trampled. I realize that in the past many of the Syriacs were basically turned into Greeks and that many easterns were basically turned into Latins. I think that that is part of what I was saying though. We need to learn to respect each others traditions. Until this happens the seperate heirarchies are necessary. But we have to atleast look toward the idea of reuniting the various jurisdictions. It seems to be somewhat problematic for me to be obedient to one heirarchy while my next door neighbor is obedient to a different heirarchy.

Regarding the various different traditions. There should be some hope to resolve our differences. Maybe the move to a more regional structure would help in this way. We need to learn to frame our faith in a way that is mutually palatable without capitulating to the other tradition. A heeling of the breaks in the jurisdictions also means that there should be a healing of the break in theology.
 
Ghosty, I see what you are saying and I agree to a large degree. Yes, at the time of the schism the patriarch had the Eucharist taken from the tabernacle and trampled. I realize that in the past many of the Syriacs were basically turned into Greeks and that many easterns were basically turned into Latins. I think that that is part of what I was saying though. We need to learn to respect each others traditions. Until this happens the seperate heirarchies are necessary. But we have to atleast look toward the idea of reuniting the various jurisdictions. It seems to be somewhat problematic for me to be obedient to one heirarchy while my next door neighbor is obedient to a different heirarchy.

Regarding the various different traditions. There should be some hope to resolve our differences. Maybe the move to a more regional structure would help in this way. We need to learn to frame our faith in a way that is mutually palatable without capitulating to the other tradition. A heeling of the breaks in the jurisdictions also means that there should be a healing of the break in theology.
Could the theory of “Eucharistic ecclesiology” be of assistance? That each local church contains the fullness of the faith “You are the body of Christ”.

The patriarch I do not think has authority over the other bishops as the Pope of Rome does today. He is merely the first among equals in his patriarchate. A primacy of honour with the authority to call councils within his juristiction, and a duty to promote unity within his juristiction.

Has anyone here heard of “Eucharistic ecclesiology”? or is this a purely Orthodox phenomena? If someone is willing to study this topic this is how we as Orthodox see the Pope of Rome - first among equals in the universal church.

But regardless getting back to the topic, I see this model of the church as being quite beneficial. This is because one patriarchate can have several bishops with seperate juristictions(Melkite, Maronite, Syriac), but yet have a single patriarch to be first among them.

I think the problems in the past were due to the fact honour, or being “first” among the bishops was abused as legalistic and juridicial power - when really as St Ignatious of Antioch tells us, the first among bishops needs to do things with cooperation with other bishops. The first among bishops (patriarch) needs to “preside with love”.

Does the Catholic Church have any official views on the situation of parrallel patriarchates?

In regards to the OCA, Antiochian and Greek churches in the USA. We acknowledge this situation is non-canonical and we are working to fix the problem since we still abide by the ancient canons. But in the mean time we have oikonomia due to our human weakness until the situation is resolved.

I’m also confused about what the person above said about the Catholic church not having to accept ancient canons? Can the Catholic church change its mind on certain canons? even ones agreed apon in ecumenical council? (Eg. kneeling on a sunday being forbidden at I think it was nicea, and also portreying Jesus as a lamb denies his humanity - according to canon 83 of the 6th Ecumenical council from memory). Do the byzantine Catholics also not adhere to the ancient canons?

God bless.
 
Could the theory of “Eucharistic ecclesiology” be of assistance? That each local church contains the fullness of the faith “You are the body of Christ”.

The patriarch I do not think has authority over the other bishops as the Pope of Rome does today. He is merely the first among equals in his patriarchate. A primacy of honour with the authority to call councils within his juristiction, and a duty to promote unity within his juristiction.

Has anyone here heard of “Eucharistic ecclesiology”? or is this a purely Orthodox phenomena? If someone is willing to study this topic this is how we as Orthodox see the Pope of Rome - first among equals in the universal church.

But regardless getting back to the topic, I see this model of the church as being quite beneficial. This is because one patriarchate can have several bishops with seperate juristictions(Melkite, Maronite, Syriac), but yet have a single patriarch to be first among them.

I think the problems in the past were due to the fact honour, or being “first” among the bishops was abused as legalistic and juridicial power - when really as St Ignatious of Antioch tells us, the first among bishops needs to do things with cooperation with other bishops. The first among bishops (patriarch) needs to “preside with love”.

Does the Catholic Church have any official views on the situation of parrallel patriarchates?

In regards to the OCA, Antiochian and Greek churches in the USA. We acknowledge this situation is non-canonical and we are working to fix the problem since we still abide by the ancient canons. But in the mean time we have oikonomia due to our human weakness until the situation is resolved.

I’m also confused about what the person above said about the Catholic church not having to accept ancient canons? Can the Catholic church change its mind on certain canons? even ones agreed apon in ecumenical council? (Eg. kneeling on a sunday being forbidden at I think it was nicea, and also portreying Jesus as a lamb denies his humanity - according to canon 83 of the 6th Ecumenical council from memory). Do the byzantine Catholics also not adhere to the ancient canons?

God bless.
Eucharistic Ecclesiology has played a large part in the renewal of Latin theology. Pope Benedict(when he was Cardinal Ratzinger) wrote a book, Called To Communion in which he discusses the theology of the Church. He approaches it from a Eucharistic ecclessiology but he doesn’t quite come to the conclusion that the local church is complete in itself.

I think it would help a lot if we could integrate a Eucharistic theology more into our theology. I don’t want to say that the west has to submit to an easter perspective but it seems that the idea of primacy among equals does seem to be necessary in order for there to be a healing between the different jurisdictions and theologies.
 
I was looking on wikipedia recently and I discovered there are 2 Catholic patriarchs of Antioch - 1 is Melkite Catholic and the other is Maronite Catholic.

My question is why does the Catholic church hold 2 parrallel patriarchs of Antioch? Is this intentional or is this in the process of being resolved?

Do Melkite Catholics or Maronite Catholics on this forum see both Catholic groups merging in the future?

God bless.
I don’t know if this helps, but it is okay to have multiple bishops of different Ritual Churches have jurisdiction over the same place.

It isn’t permitted to have, say, two Latin Bishops over a territory, but it is okay to have one Latin, one Maronite and one whatever-else over a place.

Bishops of different Rites can have the same geographical territory. It’s just that their jurisdictions only cover the members of their Rite. For example, you can have several Catholic Bishops of New York, but they’d all need to be of different Rites and though their jurisdictions overlap geographically, they do not overlap in terms of the faithful. Violating that through disputes would be unhealthy toward the Church’s universal nature.

Or, you could have one Latin Bishop of New York, one Maronite Bishop who covers the whole East Coast, one Melkite Bishop who covers the whole US and one Ukrainian Bishop who covers the whole North America; again, even though their territories overlap, they’re only responsible for their own Rite.

I wonder, though, how Rome comes to play in all of this. Like, I would imagine that you can’t have an Eastern Church covering the territory of Rome. If you did, it would practically imply that this Eastern Bishop is also the Bishop of Rome. Even if that Bishop never claimed to be as such, and no Bishop in that position would ever dare, I don’t think it’s at all allowable to permit. Would the Pope, or perhaps the Congregation for Oriental Churches, have jurisdiction instead?

Then, we can surmise, the Orthodox Churches could very well come in and make their own Pope in Rome. We do have a Latin counterpart to the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem. There used to be the same thing for Constantinople. Theoretically, the Orthodox could create a Patriarchate in Rome. Of course, that hasn’t ever been done, and the mutual respect between Rome and the Orthodox Churches simply would never make that a possibility.

Aside from that, it’s really impractical for the Melkite Patriarch to have to cover the Maronite Church as well. The Melkite Patriarch would have been brought up in distinctly Melkite customs and traditions; frankly he wouldn’t be qualified to run the Maronite Church, and vice versa – and that’s not even including the work one patriarch would undergo administering his own Church. I’d imagine that administering to two whole Churches would simply be humanly impossible.

As for whether this is a mistake that is destined to be resolved, the answer is no. It’s not just because the Patriarchs each head their own very different Churches, but Rome is extremely unlikely to demote a Patriarchate into a Major Archbishopric or Metropolinate or whatever. If anything, there probably will be even more Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch in the future, as we return in Communion with the East.
 
I think that that is part of what I was saying though. We need to learn to respect each others traditions. Until this happens the seperate heirarchies are necessary. But we have to atleast look toward the idea of reuniting the various jurisdictions.
I definitely agree that this would be the ideal, and would be for the greater Glory of God, I just don’t know if it’s really feesible at this time, or anytime before the full renewal of the world. 🙂

We are very fortunate as Catholics to have such a wealth of traditions, and we’re just now coming out of a kind of “Dark Age” in which this diversity wasn’t appreciated. For now our main focus should be on strengthening our traditions so that we can more fully represent the full Body of Christ, and that requires that we have distinct, and strong, hierarchies for our various Churches IMO. We’re the Body of Christ, and His hand has many fingers. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
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