Why not tolerate non-sacramental, civil gay marriage?

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If you dislike the words it is because it is so true. People rebel against the truth mostly because accepting the truth means stopping what one is doing.
That is absolutely nonsense and you know that. You’re coming at this from a position where everyone “knows” that homosexual actions are wrong. That’s just not factual. People do not know that it is wrong. People do not just go along to get along but in their hearts know it’s wrong and just don’t have the courage to say it. People are genuinely changing their minds today and it’s not like it’s been an eternal truth etched in our collective consciences that sexual acts between the same sex is morally wrong. It’s been tolerated and even encouraged in other civilizations. And I don’t just mean ancient Greece. Go look at medieval Japan for instance.

Not everyone has had the same upbringing as you or I. Not everyone has the same opinion or set of beliefs as you or I. Most Eastern religions don’t touch on homosexuality at all in their sacred texts. Whether Hindus and Buddhists consider homosexual actions moral or immoral or neither has changed over the centuries. These are certifiable facts my friend.

So there are plenty of people who are coming from a position of not simply rebelling against what they know is true but actually coming at them with entirely different worldviews. That’s not to say they are right. They are not. But immediately blasting them with both barrels and saying “you’re wrong, you support evil and you know you support evil” is probably not the best way to go about it.

What would you do if you were counseling a heterosexual couple that was living together before marriage? Would you look at them and just yell “FORNICATOR” or would you try to gently explain why what their doing is both sinful and counterproductive to their pending marriage? True enough that they’re engaging in fornication, but how is smacking them in the face with that going to help, especially if they, say, grew up in a household where they were taught that they should definitely move-in with a prospective spouse first to “seek how it works.” People are really and truly taught these things from childhood. Denying these realities is not helpful.
You do not like the truth. Address the arguments if you can. Deflection is not an argument.
See this is additionally part of the problem. I’m pretty sure I’ve clearly stated my opposition to same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption. I’ve voted to constitutionally ban same-sex marriage in Florida. All I’m asking for is a change in tone, mostly because I think it would be more constructive.
 
Exactly. Not a civil rights issue
:
Equal treatment: It is true that society and by extension government does not treat single people the same as married people. When blacks and women were not treated the same as whites and men we worked to change the laws to treat them the same. We did not try to pass laws which declared women to be men or blacks to be white as a solution. If society believes that couples taxed with the mission of raising the next generation should be treated the same as people who cannot, the solution is to work toward treating single people the same as married people, not to create a legal fiction.
 
Replying to Stephen 168 Post 243

Is a same sex union marriage?
It is if society says it is.
Objection 1. It seems it is marriage. For marriage is between two people in love.
Objection 2. Further, sterile unions of opposite sexes are called marriage.
Objection 3. Further marriage is a civil right to marry whoever one chooses.
On the contrary; marriage is a union of male and female for the purpose of raising the children they create.

Clearly, in the eyes of many (as you have noted, sterile couples and homosexual couples) it can have other purposes.
By its design a same sex union is not capable of creating children, so the union will never have children to raise. Therefore, same sex unions are not marriage.
I answer that, The two most basic needs of all living beings are nutrition and reproduction.

Human beings have other needs, including a sense of purpose and the ability to love and be loved. The problem with this argument is that it assumes human beings are mere animals.

We can reason from nature the telos of sex is the act of producing offspring. Men have reproductive organs and women have complimentary reproductive organs. The first purpose of these organs is to reproduce. We would not need these organs to perform any of their other function; which makes these other functions secondary.

If the sole telos of sex were production of offspring were, according to natural law, the production of offspring, then even fertile heterosexual couples would not be moved to it during periods of female infertility.

The institution of marriage is a product of the natural law.
No, sex is the product of natural law; marriage is a creation of society.

Only human beings can produce more children than a mother is able to rear.
Plenty of animal babies die for want of sufficient support.

Non-human babies are almost full grown before their mother could possible produce another baby. A human baby is born extremely under developed. Even in the most primitive societies a human would reach the age of fourteen before they could truly care for themselves. In those fourteen years, a mother could have 13 more children. Non-human females are moving around quit well, as are the new babies, within minutes of birth. A human mother is almost helpless for a week or two after child birth. She needs help.

Our society thinks it indecent to require new mothers to resume ordinary duties, but we are the exception according to history.

Children also have a human right to their father and mother to teach them the skills required to take care of themselves.
Teaching is not a gender-specific skill. By the use of language, a human trait, youngsters may be taught necessary survival skills by either gender.

By observing nature we can reason the purpose of marriage. Just as the telos of the eye is to see, the telos of marriage is to create and raise children.

Nice try at the application of classic logic, but as you can see, the premises are full of errors.

Reply to Objection 1. There are many forms of love—between fathers and sons, brothers and sisters and the best of friends—that are unquestionably deep, and none of them are diminished by the fact that it is not formally expressed by a sexual union. Therefore marriage is more than people in love.
And marriages can be loveless.

Reply to Objection 2. Sex is not merely an expression of love or of the commitment of two human beings to one another. It is also a reproductive act. Therefore, the complementarity of the male and female reproductive organs are required for marriage just as an eye is required for sight. Sadly some people are born blind, but this does not mean their eyes are not for seeing. We can not claim that fingers are eyes because they see as well as a blind eye. Because some people are born sterile, it does not void their marriage; a blind eye is still an eye. Therefore, a sterile complementary union is still marriage.
If someone feels loved, are we incorrect to call the action causing that feeling “loving” regardless of the physical equipment?

Reply to Objection 3. Civil rights are rights owned and given by the government. Marriage is a human right to be able to reproduce with whoever you choose.
Government restricts that “right” (see your notations below).

It has been owned by mankind from the beginning (depends on what you mean by beginning) and has been regulated by custom/government as to age, close relatives, and number.
Polygamy is well attested in the Bible and is still practiced legally in some places today.

These regulations are designed to give the best chance for the creation and raising of healthy children. No one has ever been allowed to marry whoever and how many they choose.
For government to restrict the rights of individuals there must be a reason that demonstrably is based on some harm to society or members thereof.

Continued…
 
Reply to Stephen, continued

People who have an attraction to the same sex are free to marry but like everyone else; not whoever they choose. Therefore, this is not a civil rights issue. Equal treatment: It is true that society and by extension government does not treat single people the same as married people. When blacks and women were not treated the same as whites and men we worked to change the laws to treat them the same. We did not try to pass laws which declared women to be men or blacks to be white as a solution.

Thereby showing that a new awareness of former practices which once expressed the values of society which are now deemed incongruent with contemporary ideas of justice may be changed.

If society believes that couples taxed with the mission of raising the next generation should be treated the same as people who cannot, the solution is to work toward treating single people the same as married people, not to create a legal fiction.
If it’s legal, then it’s not a fiction.
 
Exactly. Not a civil rights issue
Stephen, you build a conclusion from the article posted by Ed that contends that the current movement to accomplish the legalization of same-sex marriage is not comparable to the struggle for civil rights by African Americans because in the latter there were acts of government to take back privileges that had previously been granted by the 13th Amendment.
The movement for racial equality began long before the passage of the 13th Amendment and it would be mistaken to look only at developments that occurred after that.

The article states: "The marriage radicals, on the other hand, seek to restore nothing. They have not been deprived of the law’s equal protection, nor of the right to marry — only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a “marriage.”

According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. These rights and responsibilities apply to only male-female couples, from the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

Likewise a law that forbids couples to call their relationship marriage and denies them the benefits of being married denies them of equal protection.

If that is not being deprived of civil rights, I don’t know what is.
 
Is a same sex union marriage?

Objection 1.
It seems it is marriage. For marriage is between two people in love.

Reply to Objection 1. There are many forms of love—between fathers and sons, brothers and sisters and the best of friends—that are unquestionably deep, and none of them are diminished by the fact that it is not formally expressed by a sexual union. Therefore marriage is more than people in love.
RevDon;10412633:
And marriages can be loveless
Objection 2.

Further, sterile unions of opposite sexes are called marriage.
Reply to Objection 2. Sex is not merely an expression of love or of the commitment of two human beings to one another. It is also a reproductive act. Therefore, the complementarity of the male and female reproductive organs are required for marriage just as an eye is required for sight. Sadly some people are born blind, but this does not mean their eyes are not for seeing. We can not claim that fingers are eyes because they see as well as a blind eye. Because some people are born sterile, it does not void their marriage; a blind eye is still an eye. Therefore, a sterile complementary union is still marriage.
RevDon;10412633:
If someone feels loved, are we incorrect to call the action causing that feeling “loving” regardless of the physical equipment?
** Objection 3. **

Further marriage is a civil right to marry whoever one chooses.

Reply to Objection 3. rights are rights owned and given by the government. Marriage is a human right to be able to reproduce with whoever you choose. It has been owned by mankind from the beginning and has been regulated by custom/government as to age, close relatives, and number. These regulations are designed to give the best chance for the creation and raising of healthy children. No one has ever been allowed to marry whoever and how many they choose. People who have an attraction to the same sex are free to marry but like everyone else; not whoever they choose. Therefore, this is not a civil rights issue.
RevDon;10412633:
Government restricts that “right” (see your notations below). depends on what you mean by beginning Polygamy is well attested in the Bible and is still practiced legally in some places today. For government to restrict the rights of individuals there must be a reason that demonstrably is based on some harm to society or members thereof.
It seems that you agree with me and/or you failed to address the question
 
According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. These rights and responsibilities apply to only male-female couples, from the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

Likewise a law that forbids couples to call their relationship marriage and denies them the benefits of being married denies them of equal protection.

If that is not being deprived of civil rights, I don’t know what is.
It is true that society and by extension government does not treat single people the same as married people. When blacks and women were not treated the same as whites and men we worked to change the laws to treat them the same. We did not try to pass laws which declared women to be men or blacks to be white as a solution. If society believes that couples taxed with the mission of raising the next generation should be treated the same as people who cannot, the solution is to work toward treating single people the same as married people, not to create a legal fiction
 
Reply to Stephen, continued

People who have an attraction to the same sex are free to marry but like everyone else; not whoever they choose. Therefore, this is not a civil rights issue. Equal treatment: It is true that society and by extension government does not treat single people the same as married people. When blacks and women were not treated the same as whites and men we worked to change the laws to treat them the same. We did not try to pass laws which declared women to be men or blacks to be white as a solution.

Thereby showing that a new awareness of former practices which once expressed the values of society which are now deemed incongruent with contemporary ideas of justice may be changed.

If society believes that couples taxed with the mission of raising the next generation should be treated the same as people who cannot, the solution is to work toward treating single people the same as married people, not to create a legal fiction.
If it’s legal, then it’s not a fiction.
On your last point. Abortion is legal but a unique human being dies. However, there are many who ignore that fact and still support it.

Peace,
Ed
 
On your last point. Abortion is legal but a unique human being dies. However, there are many who ignore that fact and still support it.

Peace,
Ed
Ed,
I don’t see how the death of a human being can not be seen as an evil. Still, people who make that choice are not in a position to see that their other alternatives are obvious goods. This is messy. Unlike the matter of same sex marriage, abortion has a clear harm to another human being.
My point was not that everything that is legal is good. My point was merely that whatever is legal is real, not a fiction.
 
Ed,
I don’t see how the death of a human being can not be seen as an evil. Still, people who make that choice are not in a position to see that their other alternatives are obvious goods. This is messy. Unlike the matter of same sex marriage, abortion has a clear harm to another human being.
My point was not that everything that is legal is good. My point was merely that whatever is legal is real, not a fiction.
Whatever is legal is real? That is not necessarily the case. Law is a construct which may or may not correspond to reality.

A court may find a innocent defendant to be guilty, or a guilty defendant to be innocent. Such things happen. The court decision does not correspond to reality. In such cases, what is legal is not real.

When I worked for a government agency, we did not even always accept the legal findings of another governmental branch as real. The Army might give someone a dishonorable discharge. That’s legal, and it’s their decision. The VA might, and does, do it’s own investigation and determine that the person’s service was not dishonorable for purposes of benefits, or vice versa.

A corporation is a legal person but not a real person.

Roe v Wade did not consider an unborn human being to be a real human being for legal purposes. But the legality does not correspond to reality. A human being is determined by biology and genetics, not law.

In the case of same sex marriage, only men and women have the biological capacity to engage in marital acts. Legalizing same sex marriage does not make a pretend marriage into a real marriage. The reality remains. Same sex couples have no capacity to marry.
 
Whatever is legal is real? That is not necessarily the case. Law is a construct which may or may not correspond to reality.

A court may find a innocent defendant to be guilty, or a guilty defendant to be innocent. Such things happen. The court decision does not correspond to reality. In such cases, what is legal is not real.

When I worked for a government agency, we did not even always accept the legal findings of another governmental branch as real. The Army might give someone a dishonorable discharge. That’s legal, and it’s their decision. The VA might, and does, do it’s own investigation and determine that the person’s service was not dishonorable for purposes of benefits, or vice versa.

A corporation is a legal person but not a real person.

Roe v Wade did not consider an unborn human being to be a real human being for legal purposes. But the legality does not correspond to reality. A human being is determined by biology and genetics, not law.

In the case of same sex marriage, only men and women have the biological capacity to engage in marital acts. Legalizing same sex marriage does not make a pretend marriage into a real marriage. The reality remains. Same sex couples have no capacity to marry.
I suspect that I did not make clear that by “legal” I don’t necessarily mean “true.” Things that are the subject of law are not imaginary or hallucinations. They exist and may be named and evaluated in the way you described. Even in Roe V. Wade, nobody argued that there was nothing there. They debated what it was.
This rabbit trail is taking us away from the original question.

If, for the sake of discussion, there were such a thing as same sex marriage, then wouldn’t, by definition, the acts in that marriage be marital acts? Again, don’t limit marriage to procreation. If that were a requirement, then we could have to conclude that Mary was not married to Joseph (at least if you accept the Catholic point of view).
 
I suspect that I did not make clear that by “legal” I don’t necessarily mean “true.” Things that are the subject of law are not imaginary or hallucinations. They exist and may be named and evaluated in the way you described. Even in Roe V. Wade, nobody argued that there was nothing there. They debated what it was.
This rabbit trail is taking us away from the original question.

If, for the sake of discussion, there were such a thing as same sex marriage, then wouldn’t, by definition, the acts in that marriage be marital acts? Again, don’t limit marriage to procreation. If that were a requirement, then we could have to conclude that Mary was not married to Joseph (at least if you accept the Catholic point of view).
The Catholic point of view is that the ability to engage in marital intercourse, whether exercised or not, whether children result or not, is essential to marriage. That’s why permanent and antecedent impotence on the part of either party is an impediment to marriage, while infertility is not.

It’s a Catholic view, and also a natural view, since it corresponds to the reality of how men and women are constructed.

And same sex couples are inherently incapable of marital intercourse, and thus of marriage. They may declare themselves a couple, the state may declare them married if it accepts such impossibilities, but the reality remains unchanged. Their relationship can never be marital, never be conjugal, never be marriage. Pretending it is so does no good to them, to families, or to society or civilization.

The state may pretend that it’s just the same as sexually complementary couples, but it obviously isn’t. Societies have recognized that since the dawn of civilization.

So no, simply declaring something to be legal has no power to make non-marital acts into marital acts.
 
Yes, same sex civil marriage is not true marriage it is a legal fiction

You are begging the question. See post 243.
The authority of law in a number of jurisdictions states that for purposes of law, same sex marriage is real.

If you persist in applying the definition that marriage can only be between heterosexuals, and everyone were in agreement with that definition, then there would be no need for this discussion.
There is not universal acceptance of that definition, hence we discuss the issue to establish what is right and true. However, you may not use the definition in question to justify itself.

Post 243 is lengthy. Again, I ask you to be specific. To what part of it do you wish to draw my attention?
If you were referring to this:
“On the contrary; marriage is a union of male and female for the purpose of raising the children they create. By its design a same sex union is not capable of creating children, so the union will never have children to raise. Therefore, same sex unions are not marriage.”
I have several objections:
  1. You assume male and female. That is the question in dispute.
  2. There is a difference between begetting and raising children. Same sex couples raise children.
  3. As you have noted, there are various circumstances of heterosexual couples who cannot beget children.
    As I continue to assert, the fertility argument doesn’t work.
 
So what is same-sex marriage? A gay couple live together, go to work, come home, have sex or not and go to sleep. After the ceremony, nothing changes. There is only a benefits package. Fidelity? Monogamy? Not necessary. And gay divorce? Sure. Even after hundreds of posts regarding commitment, we get this:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2164783/One-gay-couples-married-New-York-set-to-divorced.html

After years of waiting and planning.

And why bother posting here? How is Catholic permission required/necessary? No one needs to ask anybody’s permission to live how they want.

Peace,
Ed
 
The authority of law in a number of jurisdictions states that for purposes of law, same sex marriage is real.
The EU has established a natural preserve in Ireland for leprechauns. Does that mean they exist? Iceland routinely routes road construction around areas claimed to be “elf houses”. Does that make elves real? The president of the United States could sign a law tomorrow declaring that humans can breathe carbon dioxide. That wouldn’t make it possible.

Human law cannot trump nature.
If you persist in applying the definition that marriage can only be between heterosexuals, and everyone were in agreement with that definition, then there would be no need for this discussion.
There is not universal acceptance of that definition, hence we discuss the issue to establish what is right and true. However, you may not use the definition in question to justify itself.
When a particular definition (marriage as something that can only occur between male and female) has been consistently and globally held for the entire duration of human civilization on this planet - regardless of religion, government, or other sexual mores - any suggestion that the definition should be changed needs to show proof equal to the claim that all of humanity got it wrong for our entire history. So far, all we’ve been given is, “I want it”. That’s the claim of a spoiled child. They want to overturn a principle that stands alongside the prohibition or murder as one of the only laws held by every culture throughout all history in all places that humans have lived. Show me proof equal to the claim.
Post 243 is lengthy. Again, I ask you to be specific. To what part of it do you wish to draw my attention?
If you were referring to this:
“On the contrary; marriage is a union of male and female for the purpose of raising the children they create. By its design a same sex union is not capable of creating children, so the union will never have children to raise. Therefore, same sex unions are not marriage.”
I have several objections:
  1. You assume male and female. That is the question in dispute.
As I have asked multiple times in these threads - Show me a single instance of a civilization anywhere on this planet that recognized same-sex “marriage” as something equal to marriage prior to 2000. This is as much a “dispute” as arguing that pi should be exactly 3. I’m not arguing from my Faith here, purely from an anthropological standpoint, and such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.
  1. There is a difference between begetting and raising children. Same sex couples raise children.
Bully for them. So do heterosexual couples and single parents. I would also note that those agitating for this are also responsible for a reduction in the number of adoption agencies in the US because they tolerate to dissent from their gospel of false equality.
  1. As you have noted, there are various circumstances of heterosexual couples who cannot beget children.
    As I continue to assert, the fertility argument doesn’t work.
As you have failed to note, the fertility of any particular heterosexual couple doesn’t matter. The fact remains that heterosexual sterility is the rare exception rather than the rule. 100% of all homosexual couples are inherently, unavoidably, irrevocably sterile.
 
So what is same-sex marriage? A gay couple live together, go to work, come home, have sex or not and go to sleep. After the ceremony, nothing changes. There is only a benefits package. Fidelity? Monogamy? Not necessary. And gay divorce? Sure. Even after hundreds of posts regarding commitment, we get this:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2164783/One-gay-couples-married-New-York-set-to-divorced.html

After years of waiting and planning.

And why bother posting here? How is Catholic permission required/necessary? No one needs to ask anybody’s permission to live how they want.

Peace,
Ed
Would you say that fidelity and monogamy are important to a marriage? I would. Though I would be quick to admit that it is not always the case that marriages live up to that today, and even admit that infidelity is one reason marriages break up.
The Catholic Church is still a very potent voice for morality and justice. Some legislators vote according to the way their church (Catholic or other denomination) establish what’s “right.”) And in places where the issue is put to a referendum, all voters have a chance to influence what will be permitted to same sex couples (including those 1,000+ benefits I cited) but also the stigma that is still held (the judging that goes on).
So discussing the issue thoroughly is very important. Keeping an open mind to evaluate the arguments put forth to see if they make sense is very important. If you live in a jurisdiction where same sex couples can be married, how you respond to them from the depth of your heart is important.
As with many things, human beings, no matter how ornery they may seem to be, do better with the support of people around them than they do with the disdain of their society. Our culture has the opportunity now to define marriage on the basis of the values we hold and not just on the basis of our discomfort about sex. We should be telling everyone that as a society we expect fidelity, monogamy, permanence, mutuality, truth and many other things like that in married couples, and we should be ready to help them when the stresses of married life try to tear them apart.
Married people behave better in many different ways. Married people make less capricious decisions, take fewer dangerous risks, participate more in healthy social activities, get sick less often. All of these things are good for society. Religious married people support their churches, work in them and in outreach ministries more often (of course that’s influenced by child rearing responsibilities) and are spiritually and morally accountable to each other day in and day out. That promotes holiness.
There is good evidence to show that same sex married couples with the support of their communities vary little from heterosexual couples in all this.
 
The EU has established a natural preserve in Ireland for leprechauns. Does that mean they exist? Iceland routinely routes road construction around areas claimed to be “elf houses”. Does that make elves real? The president of the United States could sign a law tomorrow declaring that humans can breathe carbon dioxide. That wouldn’t make it possible.

Human law cannot trump nature.

When a particular definition (marriage as something that can only occur between male and female) has been consistently and globally held for the entire duration of human civilization on this planet - regardless of religion, government, or other sexual mores - any suggestion that the definition should be changed needs to show proof equal to the claim that all of humanity got it wrong for our entire history. So far, all we’ve been given is, “I want it”. That’s the claim of a spoiled child. They want to overturn a principle that stands alongside the prohibition or murder as one of the only laws held by every culture throughout all history in all places that humans have lived. Show me proof equal to the claim.

As I have asked multiple times in these threads - Show me a single instance of a civilization anywhere on this planet that recognized same-sex “marriage” as something equal to marriage prior to 2000. This is as much a “dispute” as arguing that pi should be exactly 3. I’m not arguing from my Faith here, purely from an anthropological standpoint, and such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.

Bully for them. So do heterosexual couples and single parents. I would also note that those agitating for this are also responsible for a reduction in the number of adoption agencies in the US because they tolerate to dissent from their gospel of false equality.

As you have failed to note, the fertility of any particular heterosexual couple doesn’t matter. The fact remains that heterosexual sterility is the rare exception rather than the rule. 100% of all homosexual couples are inherently, unavoidably, irrevocably sterile.
“doesn’t matter” You said it.
What matters is that our laws reflect what we perceive to be the greatest good for the most people and the least harm to any.
I for one am quite happy that we have the ability to make decisions like this.
I would not want to live, for example, having to follow the code of Leviticus, or for that matter Sharia Law.
As for anthropology, a wide variety of arrangements have been approved as marriage, including polygamy.
As I see it, same sex marriage promotes good to same sex couples and to the society in which they live. (see my post above for a partial list)

The acceptance of same sex marriage causes no one harm.

The musical, Cabaret, has a song that expresses it well:
"How the world can change
It can change like that’
All for one little word: marry.
 
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