Why Not?

[TheosisM]

If you believe in One Church and you believe in the Holy Spirit how can you deny that the Holy Spirit is guiding the CC?

Perhaps because they believe that it is the Orthodox Church or another church:shrug:

I think as Catholics we need to remember that others also believe in one church founded by Jesus Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and they don’t believe that is the Catholic Church. Believing that there is one Church guided by the Spirit doesn’t necessarily lead one to the Catholic Church (though for Catholics that is the only option), since many believe that that church is the Orthodox Church, for example. Right or wrong, that’s how they see it.

 

[Publisher]

Peace to you Rinnie.

 

[Publisher]

If you believe in One Church and you believe in the Holy Spirit how can you deny that the Holy Spirit is guiding the CC? If you do accept the teaching of the Apostles that and they said that they believe in ONE HOLY CATHOLC APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Please enlighten me then. ANd if I misunderstood my sincere apology. But explain how you can say you deny the HS leading the CC then?

And My Life is not HIDDEN in Christ nor should ever be. My live living the Life of Christ for all to see.

Peace to you Rinnie.

 

[rinnie]

I am a bit confused by this, rinnie.

I want to offer an alternative and hopefully more effective response to Publisher. In the CC, you have both the ritual and the real, personal relationship with God. It’s not either-or; it’s both-and.

It can be hard to see past the ritual sometimes as a non-Catholic, sure. Do some Catholics rely too, um, ritualistically on ritual? Yes, of course. Can ritual get in the way of the relationship if one lets it? Sure. But that doesn’t mean ritual is wrong. The question should be, is the ritual of the CC done according to what Jesus instructed his apostles to do? Did Jesus in fact establish these rituals? The question should NOT be do I like these rituals? Do they fit my style of worship? Do they speak to me where I am?

You may have to give up a personal style preference to be a Catholic, but you don’t have to give up an intimate, personal relationship with God.

What I was trying to stress is this. We as Catholics believe Jesus and his Church to One. One IN BEING with God. We believe that the HOLY SPRIIT is one IN Being with God guiding the CC. The Father the SOn and the HS 3 separate person 1 IN BEING which is indeed God.

According to the teachings of the Apostles Jesus and his church are one. So to say that you do not accept the HS as being the Advocate leading the CHurch would defy APostolic teaching would it not?

 

[TheosisM]

Again, perhaps they don’t disagree that the Holy Spirit is the advocate guiding the Church. They disagree on what “the Church” is.

 

[rinnie]

Perhaps because they believe that it is the Orthodox Church or another church:shrug:

I think as Catholics we need to remember that others also believe in one church founded by Jesus Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and they don’t believe that is the Catholic Church. Believing that there is one Church guided by the Spirit doesn’t necessarily lead one to the Catholic Church (though for Catholics that is the only option), since many believe that that church is the Orthodox Church, for example. Right or wrong, that’s how they see it.

But I am not saying right or wrong thats how they see it, or am disagreeing with that. What I am saying is there can be only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC Church. ANd in order for this to be possible there can be only One Holy Spirit leading us all to the Same Truth. One Holy SPirit would not lead us astray:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

Again, perhaps they don’t disagree that the Holy Spirit is the advocate guiding the Church. They disagree on what “the Church” is.

I agree with what you are saying but here is the thing. If we cannot agree on what the Church is how can we ever agree that the Church can be one?

If they can somehow see that the CHURCH is INDEED the LIVING CHRIST in action alive every single day maybe they can see the fullness of the truth that way.

What I am trying to say we need to stress more what the CHurch really is! And that is the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Publisher]

I am a bit confused by this, rinnie.

I want to offer an alternative and hopefully more effective response to Publisher. In the CC, you have both the ritual and the real, personal relationship with God. It’s not either-or; it’s both-and.

It can be hard to see past the ritual sometimes as a non-Catholic, sure. Do some Catholics rely too, um, ritualistically on ritual? Yes, of course. Can ritual get in the way of the relationship if one lets it? Sure. But that doesn’t mean ritual is wrong. The question should be, is the ritual of the CC done according to what Jesus instructed his apostles to do? Did Jesus in fact establish these rituals? The question should NOT be do I like these rituals? Do they fit my style of worship? Do they speak to me where I am?

You may have to give up a personal style preference to be a Catholic, but you don’t have to give up an intimate, personal relationship with God.

Friend,

I appreciate your post. I have no problem with “ritual” for those who wish to engage in them. Your point by posing the question…“Can ritual get in the way of the relationship if one lets it?” is also my point. IF the ritual and relationship goes hand in hand…wonderful…but for me…and the OP was asking for the “why’s and wherefores” of non-Catholics. Rites and ritual point to the Reality of the Living Presence…for me among Friends…I have experienced that Living Reality in my life and in coroporate worship without the need of rites or rituals…the Reality speaks to me where I am…if I actually thought the CC had the “fullness of truth”…I’d be down ready to be baptized…but I don’t…the “fullness of Truth” is found in Christ…and how that Truth is reflected in the lives of His followers and toward others is the most important.

One is a Christian if one lives as a Christian…it has nothing to do with whether one’s names is on the rolls of an institution or has undergone a ritual.

“One may enter the waters of baptism a dry sinner and exit a wet sinner…but no one who is filled and baptized in the cleansing fire of the Holy Spirit can remain the same.”

 

[rinnie]

Publisher that is kind of what I was trying to say. I never accused you of denying the HS in that sense. What I was trying to say as long as you and I cannot agree that the HS IS the Church we will never see eye to eye.

What you see is a Ritual we see as the living Christ. We believe that the Body and Blood to Come Alive as the living God in the Eucharist. Its the real deal for us.

But what my point was and still is until you can see what the CHURCH really is you can never even begin to understand the Eucharist Etc.

You are saying that NO the CC is not the Holy Spirit. I am saying yes it is the HS. And that is why we will always be at an impass. Because to me when you deny the Church you are denying the HS. Thats how I am seeing it. Do you understand. I sure hope you do.

Gods peace be with you.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Why aren’t you a Catholic?

Because the Church says my beliefs are incompatible with the practice of Christianity.

usccb.org/dpp/Evaluation_Guidelines_finaltext_2009-03.pdf

 

[PJM]

=Usbek de Perse;6237224]I am not a Roman Catholic because:

1. I was not born into the Roman Catholic Church,

1. I am high church Anglican and I particularly appreciate the level of devotion to the sacramental life that is present in the Anglican churches, that, while it exists in the Roman churches, does not approach that in good Anglican churches.

***Both for you and us, it depends on where you look.BUT there is great truth in [large numbers] for your statement. ***

1. I am unconvinced that the RCC is the exclusive or most comprehensive vehicle for the truth. I understand the teaching, but the reality of the Church’s history doesn’t give me confidence. And I am tired or inconsistencies being explained away all the time.

***May I humby suggest you read. Mt.16:15-19 and Eph. 2: 19-21, an John 20: 21-23. Then read John 17:15-17, and Acts 20:28. There can only be a single truth for any issue. On matters of Fah and or Morals it does by God’s Dvine Will and plan, reside in the CC.

Might you share some of the inconsistancies with me?***

1. The entire institution of the Papacy. I accept that the See of Peter should be the most important see in the world, but not to the extent that the Bishop of Rome chooses all bishops. When the apostles chose Matthias, it was not a choice made by Peter alone.

The manner in which Matthias was selectd is not much different than th way bishops are CHOSEN today.

Local Bishops submit a list of candidats to Rome, The Curia department “of Bishops” investigates and discuss each candidates, make recommendations to the Pope, who has final say; but seldom disagrees with the Congregations recommendations. I know this to be fact as I am a Certified Member of the Marian catecheist Apostolate, and our International Director , Archbishop Raymond L. Burke,was just added to his Congregation.

1. The RCC has not sufficiently appreciated the reformation and the reasons for it.

Sorry , but I don’t understand this point at all? Please clarify.

Having said all that, I contacted the RCC diocese in my area to see if there were any groups or individuals who are interested in discussing possiblity of an Anglican Use parish in the new ordinariate. So who knows.

From your lips dear frind to God’s ear’s!

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[lil_flower_luv]

If not accepting the Catholic church is not accepting the Holy Sprit…I’m guilty…but you know as well as I do…that was not my intention…no matter how much you wish to characterize as such.

Indeed! “One body, many parts!” No Catholic or Protestant can deny this. If you have left the Church and are truly happy - and close to God - and love Him with all of your heart, mind, and soul, then we cannot judge you or place ourselves above you in holiness! “…If an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.” [1Corinthians 12]

 

[Publisher]

Indeed! “One body, many parts!” No Catholic or Protestant can deny this. If you have left the Church and are truly happy - and close to God - and love Him with all of your heart, mind, and soul, then we cannot judge you or place ourselves above you in holiness! “…If an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.” [1Corinthians 12]

Thank you for the post.

I have never left “the Church” I was baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit when I was “convinced” of the gospel at 19 years old…I’m now 55…I have never been a member of the Catholic church however. We are members of One Body made new creations in Christ whether Protestant or Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox. It is Christ Himself that makes us New creatures…and it is Christ Himself who makes us members of His Body.

 

[PJM]

Catholicism does not answer the questions I have regarding our life with God. It “does not speak to my condition”. For me Catholicism is bound up in rituals and rites and priesthoods. I’m not interested in a life of “religiouis ritual” either being performed on my behalf by a “priest” or required to participate in a ritual which is perceived to “dispense grace” when I remain unchanged and spiritually dead.

**Re: Why Not? **

***My dear friend in Christ; where in the Bible does it say you have a vote; a choice on what to accept or reject. Because one can do something has never been the authority to actually do it.

I humbly suggest if the answers your seeking cannot be found in the Catholic Church on matters of Faith and Morals; either they don’t exist or your asking the wrong questions.***

For me the Power of the message of Jesus of Nazareth isn’t found in creed and religious formulas…but in the spiritual rebirth though the direct and unmediated Presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by rev kevin 
Like Ted I disagree with some of the teachings of the CC. I don’t buy the "Its because you don’t love God or you have been brain washed by the other denominations. I made my mind up to leave before I went to another denomination, before I talked to anyone from another denomination and by the way the CC has nothing to do with my love for God, I love God even though I am not with the CC.

***God’s love in return is not unconditional. Reread Heb. 6: 4-10 and John 20: 21-23. God may not be able to change your mind rev. Kevin; but you certainly are not going to alter the Divine Nature of God and change His mind.

Guess who is proven right on the day of Judement?***

Love and prayers

 

[Publisher]

Let me assure of two facts. Judgment will happen, and God will JUDGE you on HIS TERMS, not your preconceived notions. He has to as He is Just and Fair,

I am not afraid to stand before the One who knows me best and loves me most. With Job I can affirm in faith “Though He slay me, still will I trust Him.” He can be nothing but Just and Fair…and it is faith and trust that I will receive all things from His Hand…“He does all things well…” How could I not be in Better Hands?

 

[PJM]

=Publisher;6238881]I am not afraid to stand before the One who knows me best and loves me most. With Job I can affirm in faith “Though He slay me, still will I trust Him.” He can be nothing but Just and Fair…and it is faith and trust that I will receive all things from His Hand…“He does all things well…” How could I not be in Better Hands?

Darn easy words to claim before it happens!

 

[Publisher]

Darn easy words to claim before it happens!

If I’m wrong…you can yell at me “I told you so” from across the abyss.

My words are not “easy”…they are part of my faith experience. I have found nothing yet to contradict the belief that He is Faithful and Just and His Mercy is made new each day. “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities,nor things present, nor things to come, nor height nor depth nor any created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”…

“For I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”…but then they are just “darn easy words to claim before it happens”…I hold to the words just the same…they’re not my words…but they are Good Words…

 

[jericho777]

When we bought our house we got cable for the first time. I used to watch Christian TV and laugh at it thinking I could use my faith against them. They presented a clear concise description of Christ and His word. The faith I had followed from birth was not holding up to the light of biblical truth. I was challenged greatly. I asked the priest who married us some questions and he could not answer them. That was 21 years ago. I learned more about God and the bible in the six months after than in the 28 years before. I only look forward now to life with my Lord and Savior.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Thank you for the post.

I have never left “the Church” I was baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit when I was “convinced” of the gospel at 19 years old…I’m now 55…I have never been a member of the Catholic church however. We are members of One Body made new creations in Christ whether Protestant or Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox. It is Christ Himself that makes us New creatures…and it is Christ Himself who makes us members of His Body.

Did you do any research on the Catholic Faith? Why are you on Catholic Answers?

When we bought our house we got cable for the first time. I used to watch Christian TV and laugh at it thinking I could use my faith against them. They presented a clear concise description of Christ and His word. The faith I had followed from birth was not holding up to the light of biblical truth. I was challenged greatly. I asked the priest who married us some questions and he could not answer them. That was 21 years ago. I learned more about God and the bible in the six months after than in the 28 years before. I only look forward now to life with my Lord and Savior.

I am very glad you are a brother/sister in Christ! But I wonder what questions you had that your priest couldn’t answer…or what lacked in the Catholic Faith.

God Bless!