Why Not?

[Shredderbeam]

I don’t feel that there is enough evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, or divine in any way.

 

[PJM]

=AndrewJaffery;6245935]First of all, I’m not a deer I would never brag about that, probably. I’m just stating a fact. More of a shrug, if anything. You could say searching, in theory…as in, searching about the what the church says, and whatnot. I’m not one of those people to come on and moan about how bad and evil religion is, and such.

“DEER” FRIEND

Don’t get blinded by the headlights of random thought.

If you have specific questions; ask them and you’ll get specific an God wiling helpful replies.

 

[Agripa]

Neither does the Church. They have what they call a pure method.

Ah yes, the good ole’ Rythm Method - we had lots of families using that in our Catholic neighborhood - the mothers were able to at least avoid getting pregnant twice in one year with that method!

 

[PJM]

=Agripa;6246000]Ah yes, the good ole’ Rythm Method - we had lots of families using that in our Catholic neighborhood - the mothers were able to at least avoid getting pregnant twice in one year with that method!

***At the tender age of 65 I caontinue to be amazed at the number of people who are somehow able to convince themself that they actually know more and know better than the God who designed and Created us

Simply amzing, and I thank God for not giving me such deeply profound insights. ***

 

[Agripa]

I don’t feel that there is enough evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, or divine in any way.

Nor will there ever be extrinsic rational evidence of that. Its a matter of Faith and Faith requires total capitulation to an Authority that tells you Jesus was divine - you must accept it without rational evidnce.

Study hard at school, and do study ancient Roman History - there you will find that Catholics were certainly not the first to come up with the notion of Divine Rulers, Sons of Gods, Virgin Mothers, etc. All the templates were there!

 

[Agripa]

***At the tender age of 65 I caontinue to be amazed at the number of people who are somehow able to convince themself that they actually know more and know better than the God who designed and Created us

Simply amzing, and I thank God for not giving me such deeply profound insights. ***

Ah, Patty, sure but you have little patience for us rational scallywags!

Why I’ll bet you figure a good beatin’ and some time on our knees before Mother Superior will fix our errant t’inkin!! :irish3:

 

[PJM]

=Agripa;6246030]Nor will there ever be extrinsic rational evidence of that. Its a matter of Faith and Faith requires total capitulation to an Authority that tells you Jesus was divine - you must accept it without rational evidnce.

Study hard at school, and do study ancient Roman History - there you will find that Catholics were certainly not the first to come up with the notion of Divine Rulers, Sons of Gods, Virgin Mothers, etc. All the templates were there!

***So then the eye witness accounts, **historically proveable ***of Jesus Rising from the dead, raising Lazurus and othrs from the dead, walking on water, mutiplication of the loafs and fishes, all proven by people who personally saw these happen an then wrote about them can b explained; HOW

There is OBJECTIVE evidence of these events and testimonies; do you friend, have ANYobjective evidence of your views, or do simply cling to your “right” to believe anything you choose?

No, we are NOT the first to make this claim; we are however, the First to validate it, prove it and live it.**

May God guide your wisdom.

 

[Agripa]

***So then the eye witness accounts, **historically proveable *****of Jesus Rising from the dead, raising Lazurus and othrs from the dead, walking on water, mutiplication of the loafs and fishes, all proven by people who personally saw these happen an then wrote about them can b explained; HOW

There is OBJECTIVE evidence of these events and testimonies; do you friend, have ANYobjective evidence of your views, or do simply cling to your “right” to believe anything you choose?

No, we are NOT the first to make this claim; we are however, the First to validate it, prove it and live it.

May God guide your wisdom.

Tell me, dear Patty, do you think it was common or uncommon for ignorant peasant folk living 2000 years ago to claim seeing all sorts of miracles and wonderous things they attributed to god-like magic?

And please forgive me, but I am forced to deal in facts every day, so bear with me.

At one time, we had no medical science to explain a coma. A coma is a state where the body is either so sick or so injured that it shuts down. In “Ye Olden Tymes”, years ago, many, many people were presumed dead, when in fact they were not. We know this because often as anthropologists dig up old burial sites, they find evidence that the buried would often wake up, panic and attempt to claw there way out of their tombs. Very tragic, if you think about it. We know this because we find scratches and marks on the inside of the coffins or tombs.

So if Lazarus “rose from the dead” and of course its 2000 years ago, but is there a rational explanation? Could he have simply been in a coma, came out of it and got the hell up? I know I would have!

And rising from the dead was also a very common motiff or theme or action that people assigned to great religious, political or military leaders. Jesus was not the first nor the last. People claim other rise from the dead all the time - its why many beleive in ghosts!

Sometimes, Pat, ya gotta think outside the old Faith Box!!

 

[Madaglan]

Rinne,

I have studied the RCC and find it lacking IMO. I do not find it’s claims compelling. I understand why YOU believe the RCC contains the “fullness of the faith”…but the Fullness of the Faith isn’t found in institutions no matter how noble and good…it is found in the Light Within…Truth is found in the Presence in our midst…in the True Teacher who “is among His people to teach them Himself.”

While I understand your beliefs are dear to you and that you believe the RCC teaches you what the apostles taught and you must embrace them…that avenue is not open to me as a Friend…I must take responsibility and “work out my own salvation with fear and trembling”…it is a weighty responsibility which I do not take lightly…I and I alone will one day stand in His Presence and give account…for me the most pitiful excuse I could give Him if I should be asked “Why” I believed the things I did in mortality would be to answer…“Because the church told me so.” Or “My priest or minister said thus…”

I will trust in those things I have experienced. The Light which I have experienced directly and with no mediation of priest, minister or saint has never let me down either…I trust in the Light…“the true Light which enlightens every man…”

Your last sentence reminds me of a quote many Friends have used over the years when told they must embrace the teachings of an institution which claims to be that of the apostles…“Thee tells me what Christ says…thee tells me what the apostles say…but what can thee say?” Friends must “own” their beliefs…responsibility must rest solely with us as individuals and collectively as we become the Body of Christ in our world.

Friends don’t get a “pass” by reciting a creed or set of beliefs…those beliefs we embrace must be part of us…I don’t get a “pass” by embracing what others believe as truth…I must experience them as Truth and Life and bear the responsibility squarely on my shoulders…I must “stand squarely in the Light”.

Spoken like a true Quaker!

 

[Madaglan]

Tell me, dear Patty, do you think it was common or uncommon for ignorant peasant folk living 2000 years ago to claim seeing all sorts of miracles and wonderous things they attributed to god-like magic?

And please forgive me, but I am forced to deal in facts every day, so bear with me.

At one time, we had no medical science to explain a coma. A coma is a state where the body is either so sick or so injured that it shuts down. In “Ye Olden Tymes”, years ago, many, many people were presumed dead, when in fact they were not. We know this because often as anthropologists dig up old burial sites, they find evidence that the buried would often wake up, panic and attempt to claw there way out of their tombs. Very tragic, if you think about it. We know this because we find scratches and marks on the inside of the coffins or tombs.

So if Lazarus “rose from the dead” and of course its 2000 years ago, but is there a rational explanation? Could he have simply been in a coma, came out of it and got the hell up? I know I would have!

And rising from the dead was also a very common motiff or theme or action that people assigned to great religious, political or military leaders. Jesus was not the first nor the last. People claim other rise from the dead all the time - its why many beleive in ghosts!

Sometimes, Pat, ya gotta think outside the old Faith Box!!

According to the text, Jesus arrived, had the stone rolled away, and yelled “Lazarus, Come Out!” At this, Lazarus came out, still wrapped in his burial clothing. From Martha and Mary’s words, Lazarus was believed dead for four days, yet Jesus, without even seeing Lazarus’ body, acted as though Lazarus could walk out of the tomb. And it was upon Jesus issuing this command that Lazarus walked out of the tomb.

The skeptic may raise all kinds of natural explanations (e.g. coma). The Christian may equally respond: he was earlier gravely ill and once put in the tomb likely did not have access to water for four days. A stone was rolled over the tomb, which would have sealed the air within it. Were Lazarus still in a coma, he still would be breathing (albeit at a low rate), and four days would allow for enough CO2 to accumulate to poison poor Lazarus.

Of course there were many myths about gods dying and rising again. The difference with Christ is that his death and resurrection actually happened and was well attested to. The crucifixion Jesus suffered left no doubt that he had actually died. And once ressurrected, he showed himself unlike a ghost when he ate fish and had St. Thomas touch his wounds.

 

[Agripa]

According to the text, Jesus arrived, had the stone rolled away, and yelled “Lazarus, Come Out!” At this, Lazarus came out, still wrapped in his burial clothing. From Martha and Mary’s words, Lazarus was believed dead for four days, yet Jesus, without even seeing Lazarus’ body, acted as though Lazarus could walk out of the tomb. And it was upon Jesus issuing this command that Lazarus walked out of the tomb.

The skeptic may raise all kinds of natural explanations (e.g. coma). The Christian may equally respond: he was earlier gravely ill and once put in the tomb likely did not have access to water for four days. A stone was rolled over the tomb, which would have sealed the air within it. Were Lazarus still in a coma, he still would be breathing (albeit at a low rate), and four days would allow for enough CO2 to accumulate to poison poor Lazarus.

Of course there were many myths about gods dying and rising again. The difference with Christ is that his death and resurrection actually happened and was well attested to. The crucifixion Jesus suffered left no doubt that he had actually died. And once ressurrected, he showed himself unlike a ghost when he ate fish and had St. Thomas touch his wounds.

We could debate all day, and I dont want to do that and neither do I seek to disrespect the beleifs of a beliver. (I do wish, however, that beleivers would extend the same courtesies to us non beleivers and quite imagining us as going to hell!)

What I am simply about is a question, and it goes like this: Can we accept a faith without accepting the mythologies? That is to say, is there anything of value in a particular Church or Faith Tradition without the mythologies? I say there is, be it charity, forgiveness, understanding, fostering a particulalr way of clean living, etc. But are those noble things dependant on believing in the mystical non sence?

 

[Justin_Mee]

Trinity (which would be enough all on it’s own)

Incarnation (which, again, would be enough all on it’s own)

and the story of the ‘resurrection’ of Jesus (not b/c it is a miracle story that no one would conceivably believe if you told it to them today, but b/c such a superstitious story is so fundamental to Christianity that if you deny it there is no longer any reason to be Christian)

---

Say: God, Allah, the One: Allah is eternal and absolute; neither begetting nor begotten; and none compares to God.
-Surah 112 (al-Ikhlas)

I always get a chuckle when a member of one religion blasts another for being “superstitious”.

Yes, I spit coffee on my computer keyboard when I read this. Those little cans of compressed air come in handy sometimes. LOL

 

[Madaglan]

We could debate all day, and I dont want to do that and neither do I seek to disrespect the beleifs of a beliver. (I do wish, however, that beleivers would extend the same courtesies to us non beleivers and quite imagining us as going to hell!)

What I am simply about is a question, and it goes like this: Can we accept a faith without accepting the mythologies? That is to say, is there anything of value in a particular Church or Faith Tradition without the mythologies? I say there is, be it charity, forgiveness, understanding, fostering a particulalr way of clean living, etc. But are those noble things dependant on believing in the mystical non sence?

You can take verses that seem to support your own faith tradition. For example, in reading the Bhagavad Gita, I have encountered some words of Krishna that are similiar to what Christ teaches. However, the words are only fully understood within the context of dharma, karma, samsura–the whole gamut of Hindu religion/mythology.

Mythology and religion answers the question why? E.g. One ought to forgive others because our Father in heaven has forgiven us; we ought to act righteously because we will be held to account for every word we have spoken.

Secular humanism in particular adopts many sayings of Jesus on altruism and non-violence, yet its answer to why? is slightly different in emphasis: we ought to act in such a way because it reduces human suffering on earth and promotes a peaceful society.

 

[Agripa]

Secular humanism in particular adopts many sayings of Jesus on forgiveness and non-violence, yet its answer to why? is slightly different in emphasis: because it reduces human suffering on earth and promotes a peaceful society.

And do you know where Jesus got many of the sayings attributed to him?

 

[Madaglan]

And do you know where Jesus got many of the sayings attributed to him?

Other teachers in Israel at the time. Himself.

Who do you say?

 

[Agripa]

Other teachers in Israel at the time. Himself.

Who do you say?

Yes, exaclty - I would probably point to Hillel, one of the more famous Jewish religious leaders of the time. He is attributed with the saying “Do unto others as you would have thme do unto you.”

 

[rinnie]

Rinne,

I have studied the RCC and find it lacking IMO. I do not find it’s claims compelling. I understand why YOU believe the RCC contains the “fullness of the faith”…but the Fullness of the Faith isn’t found in institutions no matter how noble and good…it is found in the Light Within…Truth is found in the Presence in our midst…in the True Teacher who “is among His people to teach them Himself.”

While I understand your beliefs are dear to you and that you believe the RCC teaches you what the apostles taught and you must embrace them…that avenue is not open to me as a Friend…I must take responsibility and “work out my own salvation with fear and trembling”…it is a weighty responsibility which I do not take lightly…I and I alone will one day stand in His Presence and give account…for me the most pitiful excuse I could give Him if I should be asked “Why” I believed the things I did in mortality would be to answer…“Because the church told me so.” Or “My priest or minister said thus…”

I will trust in those things I have experienced. The Light which I have experienced directly and with no mediation of priest, minister or saint has never let me down either…I trust in the Light…“the true Light which enlightens every man…”

Your last sentence reminds me of a quote many Friends have used over the years when told they must embrace the teachings of an institution which claims to be that of the apostles…“Thee tells me what Christ says…thee tells me what the apostles say…but what can thee say?” Friends must “own” their beliefs…responsibility must rest solely with us as individuals and collectively as we become the Body of Christ in our world.

Friends don’t get a “pass” by reciting a creed or set of beliefs…those beliefs we embrace must be part of us…I don’t get a “pass” by embracing what others believe as truth…I must experience them as Truth and Life and bear the responsibility squarely on my shoulders…I must “stand squarely in the Light”.

While I agree with you Publisher on the fact that you indeed must stand before God and be accountable for your choices. Yes. But see as I have explained I do not see the RCC as an institution. It is Jesus Christ. And what you see as an institution the bible tells us is indeed Jesus. So while I appreciate what you are saying I also can say I see no truth in it.

Here is why. Jesus came to the earth as Man to show us the way, He left the Apostles with the truth to teach us the way.

Now you say that while you must take responsibility and work out your salvation, who don’t. What makes you think that we do not either. We know and believe that the Jesus Christ is our way to Salvation which is the Church. But we must obey his ways.

Now tell me this how can you be so sure that Jesus Christ is not found and is not the CC the way he promised?

 

[rinnie]

Publisher also where do you see that we get a free pass by believing and living by the Apostles creed. Where does they creed say anything about a free pass.

Now tell me this, if you do not have the creed to guide you, and the Apostles teachings of Christ to lead you, who do you follow.

Because you either have to follow the commandments of God that were taught to you by the Apostles and early Fathers of the CHurch or you follow yourself.

Or there is one other option, You claim you yourself have that Power the Power of the Holy SPirit to do all things. I can not see any other way.

What I am saying is you had to have been taught the word of God from someone. Who was it then?

 

[rinnie]

And also I do agree with you. The truth is found with the light within.

I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT! Those are the words of of Jesus Christ. Who can be found in the RCC! But like the gospel says but without you where would I go? Which is why Jesus was there to lead and is also here to lead today.

I cannot lead myself Publisher. I also cannot follow you. I must follow not lead, Jesus told Peter feed my sheep, lead my sheep, Not have my sheep lead themself. or let my sheep lead you. The Apostles were put here to lead us. Why would Jesus leave them here and teach them if we could do it all ourself?

 

[rinnie]

Huh…never thought about that, nor did I realize it was harder for people to be having babies (For good reason too). Though, studies show there’s trace amounts Cocaine on paper money, so it’s not the worst thing out there…

Now, back to answer the question…it should be quite obvious why I’m not Catholic. I’m not even Christian.

Well how about lets get you Catholic then you can kill 2 birds with one stone

But the point is people can pick on the Gods ways all they want. But in the end when you live your way and not Gods way, you never hurt God. You hurt yourself and people you love and Love you.

Just like a Child that disobeys his Father. The Father says you may not drink and drive. Well why not the kid says, I can do what I want. So he does and gets caught or worse killed or crippled for life. Yeah you can do what you want. But now why are you not happy.

Its the same way with the commandments of God. Follow Gods way and you will have a good life. Go against them and you will have a life of Hell.