Why Not?

[Publisher]

While I agree with you Publisher on the fact that you indeed must stand before God and be accountable for your choices. Yes. But see as I have explained I do not see the RCC as an institution. It is Jesus Christ. And what you see as an institution the bible tells us is indeed Jesus. So while I appreciate what you are saying I also can say I see no truth in it.

Here is why. Jesus came to the earth as Man to show us the way, He left the Apostles with the truth to teach us the way.

Now you say that while you must take responsibility and work out your salvation, who don’t. What makes you think that we do not either. We know and believe that the Jesus Christ is our way to Salvation which is the Church. But we must obey his ways.

Now tell me this how can you be so sure that Jesus Christ is not found and is not the CC the way he promised?

Rinnie,

I have no doubt that you too seek to work out your own salvation**…please be so kind as to **provide the post where I indicated otherwise…and you must too stand before the One who gives us Life and Who is Mercy embodied.

I understand you believe that the Catholic church is Jesus Christ…I do not…and neither do I find in scripture any place that states the Catholic church is Jesus…“while I appreciate what you are saying, I also can say I see no truth in it.”

Any 'salvation" that occurs IS through Christ as we become members of His Body, the Church consists of those joined with Him in covenant relationship and incorporated into His Body through baptism by the Holy Spirit and who share in His incarnation in our world.

I have never stated that Jesus cannot be found in the Catholic church…please provide the quote from me that stated He could not be found in the Catholic church. I do not find any place in scripture where Jesus stated He only operated through the Catholic church…it is a fine institution and has a colorful history…I just do not find it’s claims compelling for me to cast my lot with it on an institutional level. I think it would be the greatest folly on my part to turn away from what I have experienced Inwardly and deny the Truth He Himself has taught me.

God most certainly is able and does work without a doubt through the beliefs you hold and through those beliefs reveal Himself to you and provides you a “sacred story” to embrace that gives your life meaning in Him…I too have found what He has done in my life to be amazing…I seek to live by faith and walk in the Light as He is in the Light.

If I thought otherwise, I would follow differently.

From the gist of your posts I think you believe I am under the deepest of delusions…I’m ok with that…perhaps you could chalk this up to me being…I don’t remember the Catholic term exactly…“invincibly ignorant”?

I appreciate your concern…even though I firmly believe it is misplaced concern…but I never turn down the offer of accepting others prayers on my behalf.

 

[Agripa]

Its the same way with the commandments of God. Follow Gods way and you will have a good life. Go against them and you will have a life of Hell.

So “hell” then is seperation from a group in this life? Meaning if we do not follow a faith tradition, we get ostracized and loose the benefits of being in a group?

 

[rinnie]

So “hell” then is seperation from a group in this life? Meaning if we do not follow a faith tradition, we get ostracized and loose the benefits of being in a group?

No, not at all. Hell is total separation of Jesus Christ! You lose more then a benefit of being in a certain group. Hell is not having eternal life!!

 

[Agripa]

No, not at all. Hell is total separation of Jesus Christ! You lose more then a benefit of being in a certain group. Hell is not having eternal life!!

But as I understand it, hell is an eternal “life” or some sort of eternal suffering, pain, agony, burning, etc. Do we not have to be “alive” and sentient to experience all that pain? And if so, is hell not “living”?

But what then is “eternal life” in the sence of going to Jesus, or God after this “life”. And would it be so terrible if there was simply nothing? No feeling, no experience, no awareness after death as the rationalists beleive?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Rinnie,

I have no doubt that you too seek to work out your own salvation**…please be so kind as to **provide the post where I indicated otherwise…and you must too stand before the One who gives us Life and Who is Mercy embodied.

I understand you believe that the Catholic church is Jesus Christ…I do not…and neither do I find in scripture any place that states the Catholic church is Jesus…“while I appreciate what you are saying, I also can say I see no truth in it.”

Any 'salvation" that occurs IS through Christ as we become members of His Body, the Church consists of those joined with Him in covenant relationship and incorporated into His Body through baptism by the Holy Spirit and who share in His incarnation in our world.

I have never stated that Jesus cannot be found in the Catholic church…please provide the quote from me that stated He could not be found in the Catholic church. I do not find any place in scripture where Jesus stated He only operated through the Catholic church…it is a fine institution and has a colorful history…[SIGN]I just do not find it’s claims [/SIGN]compelling for me to cast my lot with it on an institutional level. I think it would be the greatest folly on my part to turn away from what I have experienced Inwardly and deny the Truth He Himself has taught me.

God most certainly is able and does work without a doubt through the beliefs you hold and through those beliefs reveal Himself to you and provides you a “sacred story” to embrace that gives your life meaning in Him…I too have found what He has done in my life to be amazing…I seek to live by faith and walk in the Light as He is in the Light.

If I thought otherwise, I would follow differently.

From the gist of your posts I think you believe I am under the deepest of delusions…I’m ok with that…perhaps you could chalk this up to me being…I don’t remember the Catholic term exactly…“invincibly ignorant”?

I appreciate your concern…even though I firmly believe it is misplaced concern…but I never turn down the offer of accepting others prayers on my behalf.

When you call the Church an institution. The Church is not an institution. It is Jesus Christ. Now when you say you do not find the claims of the CC compelling enought …and If I am misreading you, then what does that mean? To me if I say claim not compelling…that means to me, I don’t buy it. So are you saying you agree or disagree?

See I hate the beating around the bush thing. Like when people know what they are saying and do mean it, but don’t wanna quite fest up. You know what I mean. Thats a worthless waste of time.

So you either agree with the teachings if the word that Jesus is indeed the CHurch or you disagree? Lets make it easy

 

[Publisher]

Publisher also where do you see that we get a free pass by believing and living by the Apostles creed. Where does they creed say anything about a free pass.

Now tell me this, if you do not have the creed to guide you, and the Apostles teachings of Christ to lead you, who do you follow.

Because you either have to follow the commandments of God that were taught to you by the Apostles and early Fathers of the CHurch or you follow yourself.

Or there is one other option, You claim you yourself have that Power the Power of the Holy SPirit to do all things. I can not see any other way.

What I am saying is you had to have been taught the word of God from someone. Who was it then?

Rinnie,

We accept that the scriptures are a source of teachings. We do not believe they are “inerrant”…nor do we ascribe to “sola scriptura” in any sense. Scriptures are testimonies of others walk with God and what they have discovered about Him and some of the conclusions they may have drawn in scripture is wrong.

We accept that God revealed Himself best and most fully in Jesus of Nazareth. Everything we know about God is to be compared with the life and nature of God as found in Christ.

We accept as truth many things in scripture…the Truth is made known not though a book…or an institution…but Inwardly through the ministry of Christ directly to His People…the Bible, History, Sacred writings and testimonies of those who have gone before us are all important…but unless each individual “owns” that Truth and the Truth is exhibited in their individual lives…they are simply pious words and quaint traditions…and at times oddities of history.

Friends seek to understand God through Christ “experientially”…any who claims to know Him…yet does not follow Him deludes themselves. The “proof” of one’s spiritual life is not in the creeds or doctrines or dogmas one believes in…but in the character of their lives…“The fruit of the Spirit is joy, peace, mercy, patience, kindness…” “Though I speak with the tongue of angels…though I know all mysteries…and have not love…it means nothing…love is never rude…it does not seek it’s own way…it bears all things…hopes all things…it is not easily provoked…it does not rejoice in wrong…”

It is not that Friends do not believe in sacraments…we do…life is the embodiment of sacrament…“an avenue of grace”. We do not place our trust in water or bread or wine as vehicles of dispenising grace…grace and mecy come directly from His Hands. We are baptized in fire and with the Holy Spirit…that is the One Baptism that makes an inward change in a persons life…water just makes one wet…bread and wine may satisfy hunger and thirst…but the Living Water…the True Vine…the Bread of Life…no one need “thirst” or “hunger”.

We have been taught thw Word of God from the Author.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Rinnie,

We accept that the scriptures are a source of teachings. We do not believe they are “inerrant”…nor do we ascribe to “sola scriptura” in any sense. Scriptures are testimonies of others walk with God and what they have discovered about Him and some of the conclusions they may have drawn in scripture is wrong.

We accept that God revealed Himself best and most fully in Jesus of Nazareth. Everything we know about God is to be compared with the life and nature of God as found in Christ.

We accept as truth many things in scripture…the Truth is made known not though a book…or an institution…but Inwardly through the ministry of Christ directly to His People…the Bible, History, Sacred writings and testimonies of those who have gone before us are all important…but unless each individual “owns” that Truth and the Truth is exhibited in their individual lives…they are simply pious words and quaint traditions…and at times oddities of history.

Friends seek to understand God through Christ “experientially”…any who claims to know Him…yet does not follow Him deludes themselves. The “proof” of one’s spiritual life is not in the creeds or doctrines or dogmas one believes in…but in the character of their lives…“The fruit of the Spirit is joy, peace, mercy, patience, kindness…” “Though I speak with the tongue of angels…though I know all mysteries…and have not love…it means nothing…love is never rude…it does not seek it’s own way…it bears all things…hopes all things…it is not easily provoked…it does not rejoice in wrong…”

It is not that Friends do not believe in sacraments…we do…life is the embodiment of sacrament…“an avenue of grace”. [SIGN]We do not place our trust in water or bread or wine as vehicles of dispenising grace…grace and mecy come directly from His Hands.[/SIGN] We are baptized in fire and with the Holy Spirit…that is the One Baptism that makes an inward change in a persons life…water just makes one wet…bread and wine may satisfy hunger and thirst…but the Living Water…the True Vine…the Bread of Life…no one need “thirst” or “hunger”.

We have been taught thw Word of God from the Author.

Okay now call me ignorant. But to me this would mean you do not accept the Eucharist. Its it ME? Because it would be easier for you to just say if you mean it I do not accept the sacraments of the RCC. Its so much easier then beating around the bush. If you do accept them then just say I do! Thats all. See how easy that is

Oh and forgot this is showing me you either don’t believe in Baptism or don’t feel it is needed. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[PJM]

=Agripa;6246033]Ah, Patty, sure but you have little patience for us rational scallywags!

Why I’ll bet you figure a good beatin’ and some time on our knees before Mother Superior will fix our errant t’inkin!! :irish3:

Guilty as charged; but I don’t recall your position as being defined as rational. But that too is my age, I recon. :shamrock2:

 

[Publisher]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

When you call the Church an institution. The Church is not an institution. It is Jesus Christ.

Here is were we disagree…the Church is made of those who are “in Christ”…those who share in His Nature…baptized into His Body by His Spirit…it is quite visible…made up of men and women who follow Him in faith. It is not an 'institution"…it is a People…a New Covenant People whom the Shepherd Himslelf can name.
Now when you say you do not find the claims of the CC compelling enought …and If I am misreading you, then what does that mean? To me if I say claim not compelling…that means to me, I don’t buy it. So are you saying you agree or disagree?

I do not believe the Catholic church IS God’s Church…certainly members of the CC are included in His Body of Believers who have received forgiveness of sins and new life through baptism in His Spirit…His People are comprised from every nation, kindred tongue and people…together in Him. I certainly have no problem with you believing such…if such beliefs bring your life meaning…peace…and through the influence of those teachings your words are kind and gentle…your touch loving and tender…your heart compassionate and merciful…these are the “marks” of followers of Jesus of Nazareth…regardless of what religious institution they belong to.

See I hate the beating around the bush thing. Like when people know what they are saying and do mean it, but don’t wanna quite fest up. You know what I mean. Thats a worthless waste of time.

So you either agree with the teachings if the word that Jesus is indeed the CHurch or you disagree? Lets make it easy

I do not believe the CC teaches the fullness of truth…no institution does…Truth is known Inwardly and through the mediation and teaching of the Holy Spirit directly to the individual…“when He the Spirit of Truth shall come, He shall lead you into all Truth”…“God is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth”

All institutions “see through a glass darkly”…no one has a monopoly in articulating Truth…Truth must be lived before it can ever be professed in any meaningful way.

 

[Agripa]

Guilty as charged; but I don’t recall your position as being defined as rational. But that too is my age, I recon. :shamrock2:

I am rational, but I am not of the kind of rationality used by the apologists. That is called sophistry.

 

[Publisher]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay now call me ignorant. But to me this would mean you do not accept the Eucharist. Its it ME? Because it would be easier for you to just say if you mean it I do not accept the sacraments of the RCC. Its so much easier then beating around the bush. If you do accept them then just say I do! Thats all. See how easy that is

Oh and forgot this is showing me you either don’t believe in Baptism or don’t feel it is needed. Please correct me if I am wrong.

We share in the Eucharist each First Day as we partake of the Living Bread and True Vine who is Truly Present in our midst…if you’re asking if we distribute bread and wine…no we don’t…we often share in the Love Feast after Meeting in the Fellowhip Hall…or with those whom we share our meals with…each and every act is a chance to transform it into a “vehicle of grace” and sacramental meaning…but we don’t use “outward forms”…the Reality of the Living Presence is better…don’t you think?

Baptism is absolutely essential…the One Baptism that truly changes lives is through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, through Whom we are baptized into His Body and made new creatures in Christ…but if you mean do we sprinkle water on heads or pour on bodies or dunk in pools…no…baptism in water makes one wet…and without the cleansing Fire of the Holy Spirit present it is an empty ritual…Friends employ no “outward rituals or forms”…the Inward Reality is better than the outward form…one cannot be Baptized with the Holy Spirit and remain unchanged…but one can be baptized in water…and remain the same.

 

[PJM]

=Agripa;6247133]So “hell” then is seperation from a group in this life? Meaning if we do not follow a faith tradition, we get ostracized and loose the benefits of being in a group?

***No, no my friend.

You are still part of a VERY LARGE GROUP.

IPC’s and a great number of NC-C’s are heading North, while you and your [VLG] of rationalist associates,[is that a new name for Secular Humanism?] and friends seem to want to head for the deep south:blush:

It occours to me that now that subjective rationalism supercedes objective facts, that now might be a good time to patten it.

We agree; TIMING is EVERYTHING RIGHT?***

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[rinnie]

I do not believe the CC teaches the fullness of truth…no institution does…Truth is known Inwardly and through the mediation and teaching of the Holy Spirit directly to the individual…“when He the Spirit of Truth shall come, He shall lead you into all Truth”…“God is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth”

All institutions “see through a glass darkly”…no one has a monopoly in articulating Truth…Truth must be lived before it can ever be professed in any meaningful way.

Now there you go. Was that not easy. You said what you believe. Now I disagee with you. Now its my turn to call you on something Okay!

Now answer me this. Why did Jesus leave us the Church? Why did Jesus say he was the Church? And why did Jesus build the Church on Peter. Why did he say you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hades will not prevail?

Why would he leave us a Church, tell us the church would never fail, say he was sending the advocate the Holy Spirit to lead the Church, say it was the Pilar of Truth? What was the purpose of this? If he was going to guide us each individually why does the word of God not say this. And why build his Church on Peter and why make the Church the living Christ?

 

[Agripa]

***No, no my friend.

You are still part of a VERY LARGE GROUP.

IPC’s and a great number of NC-C’s are heading North, while you and your [VLG] of rationalist associates,[is that a new name for Secular Humanism?] and friends seem to want to head for the deep south:blush:

It occours to me that now that subjective rationalism supercedes objective facts, that now might be a good time to patten it.

We agree; TIMING is EVERYTHING RIGHT?***

Love and prayers,
Pat

Its “patent” not patten - you are confusing a religious item that catches morsels of Jesus with a legal procedure to license a practice or invention.

Now, tell me, are you saying Heaven is Canada and Hell is Mexico?? I am confused with the North and South deal.

And also the up and down notions that heaven is up and hell is down. Where do we get all that? And since the dawn of Space Exploration, have Informed and Practicing Catholics had to “re-adjust” the whole global location of Heaven??

 

[rinnie]

But as I understand it, hell is an eternal “life” or some sort of eternal suffering, pain, agony, burning, etc. Do we not have to be “alive” and sentient to experience all that pain? And if so, is hell not “living”?

But what then is “eternal life” in the sence of going to Jesus, or God after this “life”. And would it be so terrible if there was simply nothing? No feeling, no experience, no awareness after death as the rationalists beleive?

No it would not be terrible is there was simply nothing. But the problem is there is something. Eternal life is eternal happiness with Jesus and everyone we loved who has gone before us. Eternal life is eternal happiness.

Eternal death is death of the soul. Eternal missery and eternal suffering. What is worse is you made the choice to deny God and choose this.

You choose the Light which is God and eternal lift and happiness.

or…

You choose death, eternal darkness and suffering.

Its really kind of simple!

 

[Publisher]

Now there you go. Was that not easy. You said what you believe. Now I disagee with you. Now its my turn to call you on something Okay!

Now answer me this. Why did Jesus leave us the Church? Why did Jesus say he was the Church? And why did Jesus build the Church on Peter. Why did he say you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hades will not prevail?

Why would he leave us a Church, tell us the church would never fail, say he was sending the advocate the Holy Spirit to lead the Church, say it was the Pilar of Truth? What was the purpose of this? If he was going to guide us each individually why does the word of God not say this. And why build his Church on Peter and why make the Church the living Christ?

You haven’t showed me any place where Jesus said He was the Church…or that the Church is the Catholic church…I do remember a passage about “a glorious church without spot or wrinkle” being presented to Him…and about those “washed in the blood of the Lamb”…but He is the object of the Churches’ love and devotion…He’s not His own object and He doesn’t worship Himself…does he…as far as the whole “rock” issue…I’ll leave that discussion on what “rock” means between the Catholics and the Orthodox…your disagreements have been going on much longer than they have with Protestants…short answer…very similar to the Orthodox…the “rock” is Peter’s confession…revealed to him directly by the Father…not Peter himself…Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone…God is our Rock and our Salvation…no man could be.

The Church is the pillar of truth…through those who are alive in Christ and share in His nature and share His love with the world…the Truth finds a pillar indeed…“How firm a foundation” use to be one of my favorite hymns…we who are made new creatures in Christ are His Presence in this world…we are His only hands…His only Voice…His only Feet…no one else can do His work in this world but us.

The scriptues contain the Word of God…and we each must discern the wheat from the chaff…We seek to know Truth from scripture…but scripture is no Truth…it is the vehicle of Truth…scripture is no more Truth and a finger pointing at the moon…is the moon.

 

[Hypatia]

and the story of the ‘resurrection’ of Jesus (not b/c it is a miracle story that no one would conceivably believe if you told it to them today, but b/c such a superstitious story is so fundamental to Christianity that if you deny it there is no longer any reason to be Christian)

The point was not about the Biblical account being superstitious per se. That is hardly surprising given when it was written. And there are all sorts of miracle accounts that don’t directly impact fundamental Christian or Catholic claims (e.g., multiplying loaves and fish… when you are arguing about Xty, it doesn’t really matter if it happened, how many times it happened, etc.)

The resurrection is not that kind of story. It had to have happened as a historical fact for Christianity to make any sense at all.

You may think that there are similarly superstitious events that are core to Islam, I don’t know, and if you do it is fine (i took Cheese to be saying that the whole mess of religions are superstitious claptrap). But that doesn’t really matter since the thread is about why you aren’t Catholic. I think the centrality of the resurrection story – the necessity of affirming it as historical fact in order for Christianity to work – to Christian identity makes Christianity fundamentally untenable. It is a myth in the worst sense, and if you demythologize that event, it seems to me, you have to deny Christianity’s claim to truth.

 

[Agripa]

No it would not be terrible is there was simply nothing

Why is it so terrible to think there is just nothingness?

Afterall, you will be dead, your nerves and awareness will be gone. You simply will not exist nor be aware of anything. How is that so terrible? Yuo will not regret or feel anything.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

We share in the Eucharist each First Day as we partake of the Living Bread and True Vine who is Truly Present in our midst…if you’re asking if we distribute bread and wine…no we don’t…we often share in the Love Feast after Meeting in the Fellowhip Hall…or with those whom we share our meals with…each and every act is a chance to transform it into a “vehicle of grace” and sacramental meaning…but we don’t use “outward forms”…[SIGN]the Reality of the Living Presence is better…don’t you think?[/SIGN]
Baptism is absolutely essential…the One Baptism that truly changes lives is through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, through Whom we are baptized into His Body and made new creatures in Christ…but if you mean do we sprinkle water on heads or pour on bodies or dunk in pools…no…baptism in water makes one wet…and without the cleansing Fire of the Holy Spirit present it is an empty ritual…Friends employ no “outward rituals or forms”…the Inward Reality is better than the outward form…one cannot be Baptized with the Holy Spirit and remain unchanged…but one can be baptized in water…and remain the same.

What do you think I think. I am Catholic for Goodness sakes. But the bread and wine that you don’t feel is necessary is actually the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, How can a presence get any more REAL than that!!! And no I would never settle for a Love feast. Not never, I want the actual true one on one presence of God. Don’t need no love feast to share with others. But if they wanna join us after Mass for dinner thats cool. But it would never ever take the place of Holy Commumion.

The Eucharist is an outward instituded by CHRIST to GIVE GRACE. I don’t see where we have the authority to change it.

Baptism is where we have put on Christ. Through the Holy Spirit Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and Sanctifies. Again an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. I will do it as Christ did it. Again I have no authority to change it. Jesus did just fine in my book

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

[SIGN]You haven’t showed me any place where Jesus said He was the Church[/SIGN]…or that the Church is the Catholic church…I do remember a passage about “a glorious church without spot or wrinkle” being presented to Him…and about those “washed in the blood of the Lamb”…but He is the object of the Churches’ love and devotion…He’s not His own object and He doesn’t worship Himself…does he…as far as the whole “rock” issue…I’ll leave that discussion on what “rock” means between the Catholics and the Orthodox…your disagreements have been going on much longer than they have with Protestants…short answer…very similar to the Orthodox…the “rock” is Peter’s confession…revealed to him directly by the Father…not Peter himself…Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone…God is our Rock and our Salvation…no man could be.

The Church is the pillar of truth…through those who are alive in Christ and share in His nature and share His love with the world…the Truth finds a pillar indeed…“How firm a foundation” use to be one of my favorite hymns…we who are made new creatures in Christ are His Presence in this world…we are His only hands…His only Voice…His only Feet…no one else can do His work in this world but us.

The scriptues contain the Word of God…and we each must discern the wheat from the chaff…We seek to know Truth from scripture…but scripture is no Truth…it is the vehicle of Truth…scripture is no more Truth and a finger pointing at the moon…is the moon.

I didn’t well forgive me. Let me do that right now for you. SO SO glad you asked. This is my most favorite part of the bible to show people.

Here it is:

Acts 22:6 On that journey as drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from the sky fell suddenly shone around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me. Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME? Who are you sir? And he said to me. I AM JESUS THE NAZOREAN whom YOU are Persecuting.

Now unless we are going to argue for ever that Paul was not indeed persecuting the CC which we all know! There it is. So plain, so simple.