Why Not?

[Disciple4Christ]

Catholicism does not answer the questions I have regarding our life with God. It “does not speak to my condition”. For me Catholicism is bound up in rituals and rites and priesthoods. I’m not interested in a life of “religiouis ritual” either being performed on my behalf by a “priest” or required to participate in a ritual which is perceived to “dispense grace” when I remain unchanged and spiritually dead.

Jesus believed in these rituals he followed them taught them and instituted new rituals.
He also said follow me ie… do as I do
Rituals are spread out through the Old and New Testament. So what it seems you are saying is 1 of 2 things either: 1 you do not understand the Word of God as it has been given in Sacred Scripture or You deny the Word of God in Sacred Scripture which is to deny the Holy Spirit also.

For me the Power of the message of Jesus of Nazareth isn’t found in creed and religious formulas…but in the spiritual rebirth though the direct and unmediated Presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

“unmediated” Jesus himself said he would build His Church He gave authority to his apostles and their followers (succesors) Ecclesia. St Paul said the Church is the Pillar of truth.

For those who find such religious rituals and rites and creedal statements meaningful, I rejoice with you if those rites and rituals make your lives better, your words kinder, your touch more gentle, your heart softer and compassionate. But for me such rites and rituals leave me feeling empty.

I have found the Living Presence experienced in my life through faith to be much more compelling.

We believe the same thing here that living presence is the Holy Spirit, but we don’t stop
there belief in Jesus is not just a word it is a lifestyle we are all called to be Saints and that is what we strive for so few have completed that in this lifetime.

I find the religious history of Christianity too “whitewashed” and “mythologized” for my tastes.

Again we agree Christianity as a whole has been diluted by schism’s and heresy. It has been that way from the beginning St Paul warns of this Jesus had many fall away from his teaching who did not could not understand. See John 6. That is exactly why we have to discern the truth and open our hearts to it even when the “Truth” is not what we think it was.

For me, I would rather trust my own counsel than give it up to follow the counsel of men who may have no more idea of what “life in Christ” means than I do. I wish to experience God for myself…not get stories of encounters from second hand sources and claim them as my own. If one day I face God in judgement…I will stand in firm confidence on my own two feet before Him in trust…I don’t think the excuse of “the church said”…or “the church required me to do XYZ” will be valid…I will be judged on my life…my deeds…MY CHOICES…I have no desire to give that up to an institution.

Well here is what you are saying “I do not trust any man only God”
I would ask you where did you learn of this God?
Do you believe in Holy Scripture?
If so you have to believe that God uses men to spread his Word, He inspired man to compose and collect into 1 place his written word of Salvation History.
The very people you don’t trust “Catholics” are the ones who this book the Bible came from. (How ironic is this?)
So other than yourself what do you believe in I am curious?

 

[Agripa]

“Agripa,”

I can’t seem to place the name. Is it from “Heinnrich Aggrippa?”

No, I took the name from Agrippa the Skeptic (I inadvertently left out the additional “p” when I signed on to this forum). He lived around the first century and provided us with the five tropes skepticism. These tropes or formulations can be regarded as the most radical and most precise formulation of skepticism that has ever been given.

I also want to use a common name found in Ancient Rome at the time as I am facinated with Roman history and the tremendous influence it still holds over us to this very day.

 

[Publisher]

Do not get me wrong I commend you for you Love for our Lord Jesus Christ, and for the teachings of the Apostles that you do accept and imitate.

But what about the Sacraments? How do you feel that you can ignore them and get around them. What I am trying to say is Jesus told his Apostles how they are to be done. The Sacraments have been followed since Jesus. What I am asking is who said you do not have to do them? THats as simple and easy as I can put it. Please understand no disrespect in any manner. I just cannot understand how you get around them.

There is no doubt in my mind that those first Jewish Christians continued to practice their Jewish rites…we know some of the controversy was how far to keep the Law…even Paul capitualted by circumcising Timothy…even though he spoke of the circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh. The message of Jesus of Nazareth was that all “ritual requirements” had ended…he overturned the tables in the Temple and the veil was rent in two…the veil that barred the “laity” from the Presence that only the priests could mediate…I do believe in the One Baptism which truly cleanses us from sin and makes us members of His Body…I do believe in the Eucharist…the thanksgiving of praise for what He has done for us that we could not do for ourselves…but I do not place my trust in the “outward” rite and rituals…my trust is in the One who did away with the ritual requirements.

I don’t need a “priest” to conduct a ritual for me…in my behalf to have Communion with the Light…He is Truly Present among us each First Day…and any place where we gather in His Name…He is at each meal giving it sacramental significance…each word has the potential to “bestow grace”…each gesture of our hands impart a blessing.

We do not use “outward signs and rituals” as we seek to make them Inward Reality…a Reality that shapes our lives, our words, our actions to be His hands, His voice, His feet.

I know most Christians have difficulty with this…they want to “do something”…but the “something” they must do is in their daily lives…not in rituals and rites that make no change in their lives…anyone can participate in a ritual and rite and be unchanged…no one who stands in the Presence and receives directly from His Hand the Bread of Life and drinks of the Living Water remains unchanged.

I understand you disagree…I’m ok with that…chalk it up to “invincible ignorance”…“we can only speak of those things which we have seen”…our experience with God in Christ speaks to us louder than a book or tome that tells us otherwise.

 

[Publisher]

Jesus believed in these rituals he followed them taught them and instituted new rituals.
He also said follow me ie… do as I do
Rituals are spread out through the Old and New Testament. So what it seems you are saying is 1 of 2 things either: 1 you do not understand the Word of God as it has been given in Sacred Scripture or You deny the Word of God in Sacred Scripture which is to deny the Holy Spirit also.

“unmediated” Jesus himself said he would build His Church He gave authority to his apostles and their followers (succesors) Ecclesia. St Paul said the Church is the Pillar of truth.

We believe the same thing here that living presence is the Holy Spirit, but we don’t stop
there belief in Jesus is not just a word it is a lifestyle we are all called to be Saints and that is what we strive for so few have completed that in this lifetime.

Again we agree Christianity as a whole has been diluted by schism’s and heresy. It has been that way from the beginning St Paul warns of this Jesus had many fall away from his teaching who did not could not understand. See John 6. That is exactly why we have to discern the truth and open our hearts to it even when the “Truth” is not what we think it was.

Well here is what you are saying “I do not trust any man only God”
I would ask you where did you learn of this God?
Do you believe in Holy Scripture?
If so you have to believe that God uses men to spread his Word, He inspired man to compose and collect into 1 place his written word of Salvation History.
The very people you don’t trust “Catholics” are the ones who this book the Bible came from. (How ironic is this?)
So other than yourself what do you believe in I am curious?

No, I don’t believe in holy scripture…I believe in the One that scripture seeks to witness of. The scriptures contain an avenue to Truth…but they are not Truth.

I don’t believe in myself…I trust in the One who meets my deepest and most heartfelt needs…I trust in the One who did not “leave me an orphan…but came to me” when no one else could…or would.

With George Fox I can affirm…“Therre is One, even Christ Jesus that can speak to my condition”…

 

[Shredderbeam]

Nor will there ever be extrinsic rational evidence of that. Its a matter of Faith and Faith requires total capitulation to an Authority that tells you Jesus was divine - you must accept it without rational evidnce.

I can’t accept matters on faith, I need to have some rational basis for my beliefs.

Agripa:

Study hard at school, and do study ancient Roman History - there you will find that Catholics were certainly not the first to come up with the notion of Divine Rulers, Sons of Gods, Virgin Mothers, etc. All the templates were there!

Yes, but what does this mean?

 

[Agripa]

Yes, but what does this mean?

Well, let me just say that whatever you study, do it well.

But in terms of history, I can say that Ancient Rome was a tremendous phenomena that still echoes deeply in our culture. I can’t begin tell you here how vast the impact of Rome is still upon us, today, throughout Europe and the Americas.

Broadly, Rome’s imprint is still seen in how we basically build and design, how we set up our governing bodies, how we deal politically with factions, how we educate, heck even how we flush toilets and move water in our farm fields! The presence of old Rome is often so engrained in our lives today that we fail to even see it. And its not to say there were other cultural impacts upon our modern world, but the vast majority of cultural influences came by way of the Roman Empire and how it left an indellible mark in Western nations.

Specifically, without Rome, there would never have been Chrisitanity at all and much of what is reflected in today’s Christian traditions - for me I will point to Catholicism, is really a deep reflection of ancient Roman customs, mythologies rites and beliefs. When you look at the totality of the Catholic Church, you really see an attempt to hold on to Ancient Rome, to preserve its structures and authorities. I mean a bunch of old men in vestments reflects much more the Roman Senate than whatever the truly early Chistian leaders were all about! And the good nuns who accept a celibate life in their particulalr garb are descended really from the very sacred Roman tradition of the vestal virgins. There is a very good reason why its called the Roman Catholic Church becuase it is Roman in so very, very many ways!

In a superduper tiny nutshell, as Rome declined (200 years after Christ died) and as the center of Roman authority began to split between Rome the city and what would become Constantinople, a dying Rome grabbed on to the growing popular sect known as Christianity - (mytholgized in a story of how then General Constantine saw a vsion and won a battle). Once Christianity supplanted the various other accepted Roman religions (they had various ones considering all the countries united under Roman rule), then Christianity itself spread under the sword of Rome and Rome evolved into the Holy Roman Empire throughout Europe and set into motion a bunch of monarchies, dynasties and families that ruled well into the 19th and 20th centuries - and some even to this day, all using the Christian religion (albiet somewhat splintered over time) as a unifying force.

But you wont realize this until you really drill down into Roman history - at least a few semesters of it.

 

[rinnie]

There is no doubt in my mind that those first Jewish Christians continued to practice their Jewish rites…we know some of the controversy was how far to keep the Law…even Paul capitualted by circumcising Timothy…even though he spoke of the circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh. The message of Jesus of Nazareth was that all “ritual requirements” had ended…he overturned the tables in the Temple and the veil was rent in two…the veil that barred the “laity” from the Presence that only the priests could mediate…I do believe in the One Baptism which truly cleanses us from sin and makes us members of His Body…I do believe in the Eucharist…the thanksgiving of praise for what He has done for us that we could not do for ourselves…but I do not place my trust in the “outward” rite and rituals…my trust is in the One who did away with the ritual requirements.

I don’t need a “priest” to conduct a ritual for me…in my behalf to have Communion with the Light…He is Truly Present among us each First Day…and any place where we gather in His Name…He is at each meal giving it sacramental significance…each word has the potential to “bestow grace”…each gesture of our hands impart a blessing.

We do not use “outward signs and rituals” as we seek to make them Inward Reality…a Reality that shapes our lives, our words, our actions to be His hands, His voice, His feet.

I know most Christians have difficulty with this…they want to “do something”…but the “something” they must do is in their daily lives…not in rituals and rites that make no change in their lives…anyone can participate in a ritual and rite and be unchanged…no one who stands in the Presence and receives directly from His Hand the Bread of Life and drinks of the Living Water remains unchanged.

I understand you disagree…I’m ok with that…chalk it up to “invincible ignorance”…“we can only speak of those things which we have seen”…our experience with God in Christ speaks to us louder than a book or tome that tells us otherwise.

Please bear with me here, I am not trying to degrade or attack your faith I am trying to make some sense out of it is all.

Now you said that anyone who stands and receives directly from his hand the bread of Life and drinks from his living water remains unchanged. I agree with you. But it was not the Priest or Christians that needed these signs it was our Lord Jesus Christ who Commanded his Priests to do this, They were only doing it the way God said, They didn’t make this up on their own, And there is a reason God did it. Do you see what I mean?

 

[Agripa]

. . . . and dont let me forget this . . . . it became a long standing tradition well after the Republic period of Rome for the Roman Senate, and later the Roman Emporers to declare themselves or former rulers as gods. Augustus did this in the time of Christ, for example. And also remember, it was under the Roman Emperor, Constantine, that the Great Nicean Council was called and Jesus was finally declared fully man and fully God - and the final vote for that declaration was caste by the Emperor himself!!

 

[Cristian_B]

Indeed, BUT ones SOUL LIVES FOREVER [which is a really long time:thumbsup:]

May I know where did you get this false teaching from? God created us mortals. The Father said Himself that the soul that sins will die. Jesus said Himself that He came so whoever believe in Him will not perish, and not that the one who believes in Him will not live forever in Hell. Only those who believe in Him have eternal life.

Someone who posted earlier was right. Hell is eternal separation from God. Where is God, there is freedom and there is life. Where God is not, there isn’t freedom nor life. If God is missing, it is just a matter of time until the soul without God will die. God is life. Where is God, there is life. Where God is not, there isn’t life, and it is only a matter of time until the life remained will disappear. We have life so we will have a chance to repent. We should have been dead by now, but He let us live so we will have a chance to believe in Him. If we are separated from God, we are separated from the source of all life. If a leaf gets cut from the tree, it is only a matter of time until the leaf will die. The soul does not live forever. God clearly said that the day when man will eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (i.e., to sin), the man will die. God didn’t say that he will live forever in Hell. Only God has eternal life, and He gives it to whom He wishes.

Eternal life is to know the One and true God. When we believe in Him and when we are born again, we, lost leaves, get connected to the Tree, which is God. Only the one who believes in God gets connected to the tree. Since Hell is disconnection from the Tree from where all life begins (separation from God), we die. A leaf cannot survive without the tree, or can it? We have eternal life as long as we are connected to God trough Jesus. This is why eternal life is to know God. All those who have faith in God, will eventually know God; and those who know God have eternal life. The eternal separation from God, is not knowing God, and those who do not know God do not have eternal life. Therefore we conclude that sin separates the “leaf” from the “tree”. Hell is for the sinners. The sinners are separated from God. Separation from God is separation from life. Separation from life is death. Death is stopping to exist. Stopping to exist means to disappear. Therefore, Hell is separation from God, which is death. A leaf will never survive without the tree, and the leaf will never become a tree. The soul thrown in Gehenna will die. At a certain moment a man will come and sweep all the fallen leaves from the ground and burn them. A leaf does not survive fire. The sinner dies.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ~God

 

[rinnie]

I’ll be here Lord willing!

Good for you my love. And if there is anything I can do to help you please let me know. If I do not know the answer I will ask my Priest. And again welcome!

 

[rinnie]

Cristian B if I may. The soul never dies. Jesus told us that. Do you know what a lost soul or death of the soul is? ITs Sin Cristian. You can be alive right now and have your soul lost and dead. Life of the soul is Jesus Christ, eternal life.

Here us the official church teaching.

CCC 366 The CHurch teaches that every spirtual soul is created immediately by God. It is not produced by the parents and also that is is IMMORTAL. It does not PERICH when it separates from the body at death, and it is reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

So I do not know where you get the teaching that the soul is mortal. Not from the Church!

 

[Cristian_B]

Cristian B if I may. The soul never dies. Jesus told us that. Do you know what a lost soul or death of the soul is? ITs Sin Cristian. You can be alive right now and have your soul lost and dead. Life of the soul is Jesus Christ, eternal life.

Here us the official church teaching.

CCC 366 The CHurch teaches that every spirtual soul is created immediately by God. It is not produced by the parents and also that is is IMMORTAL. It does not PERICH when it separates from the body at death, and it is reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

So I do not know where you get the teaching that the soul is mortal. Not from the Church!

We know that God said: “I will not violate My covenant or alter what My lips have uttered” and that He also said trough His servant: "I know that you [God] can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted". The LORD also said: “The soul that sins shall die”. We also read in Genesis 3:22-24: And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Weren’t their souls already living forever? Why would they need to eat from the tree of life if their souls were already immortal?

 

[Publisher]

Please bear with me here, I am not trying to degrade or attack your faith I am trying to make some sense out of it is all.

Now you said that anyone who stands and receives directly from his hand the bread of Life and drinks from his living water remains unchanged. I agree with you. But it was not the Priest or Christians that needed these signs it was our Lord Jesus Christ who Commanded his Priests to do this, They were only doing it the way God said, They didn’t make this up on their own, And there is a reason God did it. Do you see what I mean?

I understand your belief system…I understand you believe God wants rituals and rites performed using a priest to stand the instead of Christ or be His representative…no such priests are necessary…I share in the Priesthood of Christ…and so do you…no one need perform rite or ritual on my behalf…all need for such rituals and rites has been accomplished and fulfilled in Christ…we now may enter boldly the Throneroom of Grace and have an audience with our Father directly…no need for mediator as God Himself provided One Mediator between Himself and humanity in Christ.

If you receive the comfort and peace through these rituals, wonderful…I do not participate in rituals that someone else performs for me on my behalf…I am able to stand with boldness before the Father because of everything Christ has done…God is the Seeker of our hearts…He will not turn anyone away who comes to Him in faith…even if that faith employs rituals and rites or not.

 

[Madaglan]

Same message of all religions! Look at the Hindus - Nirvana is the perfect state - the state of no desire. But once we understand this, then we see a value in all religions and we move away from the need to enforce our religion over the others.

I thought the perfect state is the state of desiring only what is good.

There is a tendency in some Eastern religions to say that even desire for good is something to be overcome.

 

[Catholic_to_LDS]

I am not a believer in the RCC because I find to many contradictions between what the church says and what is in the scriptures (PLEASE…don’t start on the Mormon: BoM and the Bible thing:doh2:: ) Though I respect the many devote RCC members.

 

[Nine_Two]

. . . . and dont let me forget this . . . . it became a long standing tradition well after the Republic period of Rome for the Roman Senate, and later the Roman Emporers to declare themselves or former rulers as gods. Augustus did this in the time of Christ, for example. And also remember, it was under the Roman Emperor, Constantine, that the Great Nicean Council was called and Jesus was finally declared fully man and fully God - and the final vote for that declaration was caste by the Emperor himself!!

While there was a cult of Emperopr worship, Christ was not an Emperor, and Augustus didn’t do anything, he just didn’t stand in the way of a cult dedicated to him.

And Constantine didn’t vote at Nicea, he simply sat in. And even if he did, why would he want to diefy Christ? The fact is it is written quite clearly within the Gospels that Christ himself proclaimed his godhood.

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί. (John 8:58)
Jesus said to them: Truely truely I say to you, before Abraham was I am. (Conf. Ex 3:14)

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριος μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. (John 20:28)
And Thomas answered him: O my Lord and my God.

λέγει αὐτοῖς ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι; ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ Σίμων Πέτρος εἶπεν· σὺ εἰ ὁ χριστὸς ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ζῶντος. ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ· μακάριος εἶ, Σίμων Βαριωνᾶ, ὃτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα οὐκ ἀπεκάλυψεν σοι ἀλλ’ ὁ πατήρ μου ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς. (Matthew 16:15-17)
But who do you say that I am? And Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered: Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood have not revealed this to you but my father in heaven.

 

[Realist]

Friend,

Why aren’t you a Catholic?

A lot of people have convoluted answers to this question. One’s answer can be quite simple: because I have no way of knowing the Catholic god exists, I have no way of believing in it.

Love these forums, though

 

[Nine_Two]

A lot of people have convoluted answers to this question. One’s answer can be quite simple: because I have no way of knowing the Catholic god exists, I have no way of believing in it.

Love these forums, though

As the only Protestant theologian who I ever quote (Soren Kierkegaard) said, at some point a leap of faith is required in order to believe.

 

[Realist]

As the only Protestant theologian who I ever quote (Soren Kierkegaard) said, at some point a leap of faith is required in order to believe.

Right. I agree with that. But as a reasonable person, why would I make a leap of faith? And if I were to make a leap of faith, how would I know what religion to choose? There are so many. But, then, this line of thinking is completely pointless, because being a reasonable person, I wouldn’t get this far into the consideration to begin with.

What’s an agnostic to do? Keep being agnostic, I suppose.

 

[Nine_Two]

Right. I agree with that. But as a reasonable person, why would I make a leap of faith? And if I were to make a leap of faith, how would I know what religion to choose? There are so many. But, then, this line of thinking is completely pointless, because being a reasonable person, I wouldn’t get this far into the consideration to begin with.

What’s an agnostic to do? Keep being agnostic, I suppose.

Not really, Agnosticism isn’t a reasonable position.