Why Not?

[rinnie]

As an agnostic, I disagree. I do not claim to know what ethereal evidence others have to support their beliefs. I believe I cannot know whether or not people who claim to have experienced miracles, for instance, have actually experienced them. They may certainly have, but because I haven’t, I cannot draw the same conclusions they have.

Oh, I see, So you mean if someone tells you don’t put your tongue on an Electrical Outlet you could get shocked you really cannot believe them right? Because of course you have only been told by others who have seen what happens? So until you get the CHARGE you cannot believe it until to see it, and have experienced it for yourself?

Thats about how much sense it is to me, when People say they do not believe in God, OThers have seen, and others have experienced. You do not have to have every experience to believe something.

From your point of view maybe they fake then shock then? OR even death then?

 

[Realist]

Oh, I see, So you mean if someone tells you don’t put your tongue on an Electrical Outlet you could get shocked you really cannot believe them right? Because of course you have only been told by others who have seen what happens? So until you get the CHARGE you cannot believe it until to see it, and have experienced it for yourself?

Thats about how much sense it is to me, when People say they do not believe in God, OThers have seen, and others have experienced. You do not have to have every experience to believe something.

From your point of view maybe they fake then shock then? OR even death then?

You seem like a nice person, Rinnie, so I don’t want to come down too hard on you. But do you really think believing in God based on hearsay is analogous to not licking an electrical outlet based on hearsay? One has immense implications on one’s worldview and the way one lives one’s life. The other is merely a safety concern (which can be proven by science, by the way). You need to take a step back and objectively review your reasoning. Let me use your logic and you can judge whether it holds up:

Though you’ve never stepped on a nail, you know it would hurt because you know a guy who accidentally did so one time and boy did he howl about it. And faith in people is good, right? I mean, if we can’t trust our fellow man, who can we trust? Similarly, you just had a nice long chat with the man who moved into the Smith’s old house down the street. He said the most interesting thing. He said that he could feel God. It’s so amazing, he said. Allah has promised him so many things, in both this life and the next. And the best part is that he’s absolutely certain of Allah’s existence. I guess you should take his word on this and go ahead and convert. After all, that other guy seemed pretty trustworthy about the nail-in-the-foot thing, right?

 

[PJM]

=mommamia;6264531]Want what? I am actually quite happy with my relationship with the Creator. It permeates everything I do in this life.

Agreed, prayerful communication with the Spirit of the Creator is the most important part of everything. However, Christ is not God, not the Creator supreme. He is one of his children, like you and I. A more highly evolved and enlightened child. One who came to try to show us the way. But just a child of God. We all have the ability to be Christ, to have the same relationship with the Creator as Christ. He is not a God to be worshiped, but a prophet to be respected and emulated.

*** So help me out here. You understand what? What you choose to believe, the bible, or only the parts of Catholic Teaching that match what you choose to beleive? That’s convient but not convincing***.

Luke 1: 26 "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. … 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;[cause you to become pregnant] therefore the child to be born will be called holy,the Son of God.”/I]

No, I understand the “WHY”. I just still think they are wrong. I know you will continue to argue that of course I don’t really understand, but I do. At least I understand how the Church tries to justify its edicts and rules. And while my kids are exposed to Catholicism, they are also exposed to my true belief’s, and their (non-Catholic) father’s.

***So you really DON’T know the “WHY’s” nor do you desire too. Again I’m confused, what do you hope to accomplish hre of Catholic Firum. Your not interested in the truth, not interestd in trying to understand why the Church holds the positons She does, and I suspect you don’t really expect to convert any true Catholic to your position? So what’s your objective?

Not believing that Jesus is God tells me that you also reject the validilty of the sacraments, which explains alot. What is your view of he Bible? And why even bother calling yourself and your kids Catholic? What’s the big deal about identfying yourself with a Church you don’t agree with and seemingly have no entention of trying to figure out?

And what is it about he CC that you do agree with?***

[QOTE]I like to think of us as “culturally” Catholic. Its a deeply ingrained part of my families culture, therefore we continue to do some of the things expected. But I still disagree with many of the teachings of the Church, and frankly am a little disturbed by any institution which prohibits its priests from the fullness of family life, yet feels free to make all kinds of um, detailed laws about what is and isn’t permitted sexually in my marriage.

***As an FYI… men are NOT FORCED to become priest. It is a calling from God that some men freely choose to accept, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT Celibacy IS REQUIRED.

As to your issues of married sex, your experienced enough to know that everytime there is “unprotected” sex, a pregnancy does not result. Why is that? Because God designed a system that HE DEMANDS final say over. Your isues are not “the church” BUT GOD HIMSELF. Its just easier to blame “His Church.” It does not sound as bad:blush:***

Or that has all kinds of silly tecnicallities, similar to the religion of the Pharisee’s, whom Jesus came to change. In fact, I’m pretty sure that the institution that is the Catholic Church is pretty much the exact opposite of what Jesus came to teach.

OK I’ll bite, in what way?

That said, many Catholics I know somehow despite the Church live the best example of Christian love I have ever seen. Many now and historically are truly examples of God’s love on this earth. And some are just mean, petty and caught up in the little things and all to quick to condemn someone to hell for any little thing that their precious (if misguided) “Church” teaches is wrong. All in all as Christian Churches go, the Catholic church is IMHO, the best of the group. But its not enough for me.

THANKS!

And given your “understanding” one can certainly see why the CC “can’t” meet your needs. Yours, friend is th most unique Catholic confesion I have ever heard. Thank you fo sharing it.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Eris_Discordia]

I don’t believe in the authority and infallibility of the Pope. I disagree on key Church teachings. I don’t believe that any man can know the mind of God. I don’t believe in absolute truth. I believe morality is subjective, and I can’t let decisions of my life be made upon what another tells me is immoral.

“Never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of God, and claims it’s absolute truth” is my motto. So I cannot trust the Pope to dictate my own morality.

 

[PJM]

=Realist;6265912]You seem like a nice person, Rinnie, so I don’t want to come down too hard on you. But do you really think believing in God based on hearsay is analogous to not licking an electrical outlet based on hearsay? One has immense implications on one’s worldview and the way one lives one’s life. The other is merely a safety concern (which can be proven by science, by the way). You need to take a step back and objectively review your reasoning. Let me use your logic and you can judge whether it holds up:

Though you’ve never stepped on a nail, you know it would hurt because you know a guy who accidentally did so one time and boy did he howl about it. And faith in people is good, right? I mean, if we can’t trust our fellow man, who can we trust? Similarly, you just had a nice long chat with the man who moved into the Smith’s old house down the street. He said the most interesting thing. He said that he could feel God. It’s so amazing, he said. Allah has promised him so many things, in both this life and the next. And the best part is that he’s absolutely certain of Allah’s existence. I guess you should take his word on this and go ahead and convert. After all, that other guy seemed pretty trustworthy about the nail-in-the-foot thing, right?

Friend, do I understand you correctly. You beleive in “logic” but NOT in God? HOW CAN THAT BE? AND by the way, I’m a nice person too

 

[Nine_Two]

I am simply unable to relent reason like you are, and, make no mistake, that’s what you must do in the search you’ve described. So I’m supposed to test each religion against what it claims to be, and then once I’ve widdled down the list to just one or two (I haven’t personally done this, so maybe you can give me some insight into just how many and which religions stand up to this test), I just pick one and go with it? In what way does this test reveal the truth of a religion? It seems to me that all it does is reveal fallacies in some religions, thereby strengthening the ethos of the religions able to stand up to the test. No reasonable person could conclude from such a test that even the remaining religions contain “The Truth”. So I must be missing a step. What do I do after I’ve run the test and concluded religions x, y and x have passed? Is there another test?

That’s what searching is. Do you want everything delivered to you on a silver platter? Can multiple mutually exclusive “truths” coexist. You seem to back up my original statement that agnosticism is lethargy by your own statements. You admit you are not seeking,

You are unrelenting with this silly “ignorance” (by the way, you really ought to learn to spell that word correctly–it’s becoming embarrassing) argument. I encourage you to drop it. Here’s why: if one does not know something (assuming there is something to know), one is ignorant of that something; if one is privy to the idea that one is missing something (a lesser shade of ignorance) then one can begin the process of understanding that something, but during that search for understanding one is still ignorant of that something. Do you see what I’m saying? Searching or no searching, one remains ignorant.

Mai apollogies few knot been abl 2 spel write. Ill tri hardir an mayby git grammer beter.

On a more serious note, Agnostic means “ignorant”, gnosis meaning knowledge, and the augment “a” meaning the negative. So when you say you are “agnostic” you are saying you are “without knowledge” or ignorant. I suggest if you have an issue with the meaning of a word you not apply it toward yourself. It is in fact for this very reason that I argue that a lack of searching is implied by its meaning.

There is no specificity in your language, so I can’t understand your argument. I think you’re trying to use “ignorance” to mean something it doesn’t. Either way, you absolutely cannot judge whether another person is searching or not searching, and you especially cannot make that judgment based solely on the philosophy of faith to which they subscribe. But let’s assume we can. If I am indeed searching for some religious truth, what should I say I am? If I can’t say I’m agnostic because that somehow means I’ve given up and that I’m forever ignorant and unopen to changing my position (it means none of these things, of course, but you seem dead set on this definition so I’m humoring you for a moment) then what should I say I am?

First point: Ignorant means to lack knowledge on something, which is how I’ve been using it.
Second point: I know I can’t judge whether or not another person is searching, that was never my argument, my argument is that agnostic implies one is not searching.
Finally, I already told you what one who is searching for spiritual truth should call themselves - a seeker.
Also I never said there was permanency to the idea that one is “agnostic”, such a concept is quite ridiculous and irrational. Where did I say that once someone accepts the label it is permanent?

You are not the first person who I’ve met that believes so strongly that they are a rational being (and likewise anyone who disagrees is irrational), that they can not understand that humanity is prone to irrationalism, and just because you can build a syllogism (did I spell that one right, gov?) that you must be correct.

I mentioned that one must look at the axioms of others, but the truth is that you must first look at your own axioms, and rip them apart.

 

[Realist]

That’s what searching is. Do you want everything delivered to you on a silver platter? Can multiple mutually exclusive “truths” coexist. You seem to back up my original statement that agnosticism is lethargy by your own statements. You admit you are not seeking,

Where and how do I admit I am not seeking? It seems to me that it’s convenient for you to assume I am not seeking truths I do not yet know. That makes it easier to attack me. The problem is, as far as I can tell, I’ve said nothing of the sort. Also, the very fact that I am on this forum and engaging in this debate should tell you I’m interested in discovering things I’m not yet aware of. I’m not here to attack people. I’m here to test my theories against other people’s theories to see if my theories aren’t as strong as I thought they were. You’ll notice that I’m trying to honestly engage the other side and am not ascribing my own biases to anyone else, as you are ascribing your biases regarding agnosticism to me.

When I asked you about the religion validity test, I asked you for you conclusions because I do not see the point in running the test for myself. It seems trivial. What I wanted to do was get beyond the results (ex. Christianity holds up) so that we could get to the real purpose of the test, which would be the way such a test positions itself into someone’s potentially fruitful search for truth.

Mai apollogies few knot been abl 2 spel write. Ill tri hardir an mayby git grammer beter.

Apollogies excepted

On a more serious note, Agnostic means “ignorant”, gnosis meaning knowledge, and the augment “a” meaning the negative. So when you say you are “agnostic” you are saying you are “without knowledge” or ignorant. I suggest if you have an issue with the meaning of a word you not apply it toward yourself. It is in fact for this very reason that I argue that a lack of searching is implied by its meaning.

I see no conflict between a lack of knowledge and the search for knowledge. You seem to find conflict there. What conflict might that be, exactly? You’re really hung up on it.

Second point: I know I can’t judge whether or not another person is searching, that was never my argument, my argument is that agnostic implies one is not searching.

Perhaps you can let me in on how “agnosticism implies one is not searching.” You say it a lot, but you don’t explain where the implication comes form. Is it just part of your own personal bias or do you have a real argument? Please, do me a favor and think carefully about this one before you restate the exact same nonsense that ignorance=not searching. But if that really is your argument, please explain to me how one equals the other.

Finally, I already told you what one who is searching for spiritual truth should call themselves - a seeker.

“Seeker” is an apt word, but it sounds a little too mystical for my tastes. I’ll stick with “agnostic”. It means I believe there are truths of which I am probably not aware, and though it doesn’t imply I am “seeking” to uncover those truths, it also doesn’t imply that I am not.

You are not the first person who I’ve met that believes so strongly that they are a rational being (and likewise anyone who disagrees is irrational), that they can not understand that humanity is prone to irrationalism, and just because you can build a syllogism (did I spell that one right, gov?) that you must be correct.

This is meaty stuff, and I’m glad you bring it up. I defer to reason because I don’t know what else to defer to, and I know that my deference to reason is a function of the way my human brain interprets reality. Because I know these things, reason leads me to believe that reason itself may not be what it seems and that by deferring to reason, I may well be ignoring a clearer (though clear in what way is unclear) understanding of reality. This is at the heart of why I am agnostic. I believe my brain might not be able to be trusted. But what can I do about that? I have no answer (at the moment).

I also do not believe that I must be correct. You are putting words into my mouth. All I’m doing is saying what I think, and then I read what you say you think, and then I process what you say you think, and then I respond. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I’m unwilling to think I’m wrong. I’m proven wrong constantly. I am very open to being proven wrong, but I require strong arguments that resonate with me before I can concede ground. That’s how this whole debate thing works. I could counter-argue with your same logic that you, too, have conceded no ground and therefore believe you are always right. But I won’t, because that’s silly.

I mentioned that one must look at the axioms of others, but the truth is that you must first look at your own axioms, and rip them apart.

This is good advice for everyone. You should consider following it, too.

 

[Nine_Two]

This is good advice for everyone. You should consider following it, too.

Round and round we go, I see no point in answering anything asside from this which you wrote because I’ve already answered it, and we’re just going in circles. Additionally you are taking the arguments far too personally - especially since my argument is around the use of the term agnostic, and has nothing to do with you.

However in response to the bit I quited, I have, that is why I am where I am today. I tested the Axioms of Orthodoxy from the ruins of my former beliefs. It is a painful, but necessary process.

 

[mommamia]

You’re right, I don’t want to change anyone’s mind.

And I don’t call myself a Catholic, but have been told over and over again on these boards that I am Catholic. That since someone had me baptized as a baby I no longer have any say over it. Its your rule, not mine. I just use it to my advantage to get my children a top notch education in a loving and kind environment.

I like to come here because there are lots of good moral advice, and good people. And some who actually like to discuss things with an open mind. I like to learn about things, and here is a good place to do so.

That being said, there really isn’t too much of a real conversation here, because it is a Catholic site. I’m OK with that, it would be disrespectful of me to go over to the family life forum and spout off about how great abc is, or try to contradict the Church’s teachings. But this is the Non-Catholic area, so I feel there is more liberty to express alternate views.

I am OK with the fact that you will never understand my position, and will continue to insist I just don’t understand, or as it was put, am “not interested in the truth”.

Its the same argument used my my more liberal friends. “You don’t agree with me, therefore you don’t really understand”. Its really quite a silly argument, and I don’t wish to become involved in one right now.

If the Catholic Church helps you to be a kinder, gentler and more loving Spirit, then thats a good thing. Far be it from me to try to pull you away from anything that gives you comfort and peace.

 

[rinnie]

You seem like a nice person, Rinnie, so I don’t want to come down too hard on you. But do you really think believing in God based on hearsay is analogous to not licking an electrical outlet based on hearsay? One has immense implications on one’s worldview and the way one lives one’s life. The other is merely a safety concern (which can be proven by science, by the way). You need to take a step back and objectively review your reasoning. Let me use your logic and you can judge whether it holds up:

Though you’ve never stepped on a nail, you know it would hurt because you know a guy who accidentally did so one time and boy did he howl about it. And faith in people is good, right? I mean, if we can’t trust our fellow man, who can we trust? Similarly, you just had a nice long chat with the man who moved into the Smith’s old house down the street. He said the most interesting thing. He said that he could feel God. It’s so amazing, he said. Allah has promised him so many things, in both this life and the next. And the best part is that he’s absolutely certain of Allah’s existence. I guess you should take his word on this and go ahead and convert. After all, that other guy seemed pretty trustworthy about the nail-in-the-foot thing, right?

Right, So how can you take peoples word for one thing, but not another. You either believe and have faith or you don’t. But what amazes me is you put your faith in people who will and can let you down, But yet the person who never will let you down you seem to toss under that bus! See what I mean.

I didn’t mean to be mean or anything, just wanted you show you another point of view.

Well gotta roll, Haven’t had electric since Fri, and think it may go out again tommorow. Hope not! Already got over 2 feet. And tommorw another foots on the way. Hope not!

 

[Realist]

Round and round we go, I see no point in answering anything asside from this which you wrote because I’ve already answered it, and we’re just going in circles. Additionally you are taking the arguments far too personally - especially since my argument is around the use of the term agnostic, and has nothing to do with you.

However in response to the bit I quited, I have, that is why I am where I am today. I tested the Axioms of Orthodoxy from the ruins of my former beliefs. It is a painful, but necessary process.

I asked many questions you never answered, but if you’re tired of debating, that’s fine.

As far as the last thing goes, I’m glad to hear you’re all done questioning and probing your beliefs. Must be nice.

 

[Realist]

Right, So how can you take peoples word for one thing, but not another. You either believe and have faith or you don’t. But what amazes me is you put your faith in people who will and can let you down, But yet the person who never will let you down you seem to toss under that bus! See what I mean.

I didn’t mean to be mean or anything, just wanted you show you another point of view.

Well gotta roll, Haven’t had electric since Fri, and think it may go out again tommorow. Hope not! Already got over 2 feet. And tommorw another foots on the way. Hope not!

So sorry to hear about the power outage! I live in DC, but I’ve been fortunate enough to not lose power. Hope the power doesn’t go out on you again tomorrow!

I fear we’re talking past each other here. You are working from a perspective where God necessarily exists and where those who say He doesn’t are simply ignoring him. I am working from a perspective where I have no reason to believe any religion is demonstrably right or wrong. There’s no way we can debate. But that’s okay. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong, for what it’s worth.

 

[Nine_Two]

I asked many questions you never answered, but if you’re tired of debating, that’s fine.

You also asked many questions I have already answered, regardless the lack of charity filling the debate is the major issue.

As far as the last thing goes, I’m glad to hear you’re all done questioning and probing your beliefs. Must be nice.

I never said I was all done. What I am done doing is questioning the axioms, which is but a singular portion of any spiritual journey.

 

[rinnie]

So sorry to hear about the power outage! I live in DC, but I’ve been fortunate enough to not lose power. Hope the power doesn’t go out on you again tomorrow!

I fear we’re talking past each other here. You are working from a perspective where God necessarily exists and where those who say He doesn’t are simply ignoring him. I am working from a perspective where I have no reason to believe any religion is demonstrably right or wrong. There’s no way we can debate. But that’s okay. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong, for what it’s worth.

Yes, My Mom is in Fla right now comming home next month, She said all they talk about is DC not us. How much did you personally get. We are about 25 miles south or so from Pittsburgh and got way over 2 feet. My Mom lives about 10 miles from me, and I got 8 inches more than even her. Yes I also hope we don’t lose elec. again. We keep warm though, have propane ventless, and wood stove. Just no water, got well, and pump.

But back to subject you are right I could not even imagine a perspective where God does not exist. To me it would be like Love.

To me you cannot really always show Love, oh you can say it, show it, but that does not mean it actually exists. You just know it. It can not be really proven.

Another way I can prove that God exists is look into the eyes of a baby. Now thats God. 100%. The feeling you get right there, you cannot show it, prove it, even truely exlain it, but its there.

Here is something else. Even though you do not believe it try it.

Anxiety, we all have it. The next time you have a day that you cannot take it one more second. Do this. Say in the name of Jesus Christ satan get away from me, or when you are ready to just scream and kill some one do it. You can say it in your mind. Then wait, just wait. Peace will enter your heart. I swear it will. Then theres your proof. Its full proof.

My Dear Papa taught me that. He will be gone 2 years this March 1. His Sister is near death as we speak. They were close. THere were like 17 in his family. Only 2 Sisters left. I am hoping to get to Pitt Hospital this weekend. But don’t know. But she is in my prayers and I know she feels my Love for her. And I know she is anxious at this moment, she does not want to leave this world, but is so excited to meet her brothers, sisters, mama papa in the next though. And shes going to get to see my Papa, and my Brother. This has to be a bitter sweet moment now. THat is what I want for you. To know that. And to be like her, and my Papa and my Brother not long ago, who got to meet our dear lord Jesus Christ face to face. To look into his eyes and touch him, feel, him.

ITs God who taught me this. I am praying for him to help you too. To learn about him… Trust me you will have a need for what I am telling you. I was not good at death, I never really lost anyone close to me. My brother was my best friend, we were 2 year apart. He died suddenly with a brain tumor. He was only 40. That was 6 years ago. He was riding a harley one day dying the next. So young, never sick a day in his life. Then Gone. So trust me you will come to a time in your life without God, you will never make it. I always had faith that could move mountains. My Papa did move em with this faith. And it was still hard for me. Without him, I could never imagine. So please, trust me on this, read, study and ask God to come into your life. You will be a better, strong, and happier person. I swear that to you.

 

[rinnie]

By the way I would love to debat with you. But It may take me a few days

 

[Realist]

You also asked many questions I have already answered, regardless the lack of charity filling the debate is the major issue.

I never said I was all done. What I am done doing is questioning the axioms, which is but a singular portion of any spiritual journey.

I don’t know what you consider charity, but I think the lack of it goes both ways. That said, if you’d like to paint me as the bad guy, that’s cool. I’m obviously the odd man out on this forum. We can be done. Enjoy life.

 

[Realist]

Yes, My Mom is in Fla right now comming home next month, She said all they talk about is DC not us. How much did you personally get. We are about 25 miles south or so from Pittsburgh and got way over 2 feet. My Mom lives about 10 miles from me, and I got 8 inches more than even her. Yes I also hope we don’t lose elec. again. We keep warm though, have propane ventless, and wood stove. Just no water, got well, and pump.

But back to subject you are right I could not even imagine a perspective where God does not exist. To me it would be like Love.

To me you cannot really always show Love, oh you can say it, show it, but that does not mean it actually exists. You just know it. It can not be really proven.

Another way I can prove that God exists is look into the eyes of a baby. Now thats God. 100%. The feeling you get right there, you cannot show it, prove it, even truely exlain it, but its there.

Here is something else. Even though you do not believe it try it.

Anxiety, we all have it. The next time you have a day that you cannot take it one more second. Do this. Say in the name of Jesus Christ satan get away from me, or when you are ready to just scream and kill some one do it. You can say it in your mind. Then wait, just wait. Peace will enter your heart. I swear it will. Then theres your proof. Its full proof.

My Dear Papa taught me that. He will be gone 2 years this March 1. His Sister is near death as we speak. They were close. THere were like 17 in his family. Only 2 Sisters left. I am hoping to get to Pitt Hospital this weekend. But don’t know. But she is in my prayers and I know she feels my Love for her. And I know she is anxious at this moment, she does not want to leave this world, but is so excited to meet her brothers, sisters, mama papa in the next though. And shes going to get to see my Papa, and my Brother. This has to be a bitter sweet moment now. THat is what I want for you. To know that. And to be like her, and my Papa and my Brother not long ago, who got to meet our dear lord Jesus Christ face to face. To look into his eyes and touch him, feel, him.

ITs God who taught me this. I am praying for him to help you too. To learn about him… Trust me you will have a need for what I am telling you. I was not good at death, I never really lost anyone close to me. My brother was my best friend, we were 2 year apart. He died suddenly with a brain tumor. He was only 40. That was 6 years ago. He was riding a harley one day dying the next. So young, never sick a day in his life. Then Gone. So trust me you will come to a time in your life without God, you will never make it. I always had faith that could move mountains. My Papa did move em with this faith. And it was still hard for me. Without him, I could never imagine. So please, trust me on this, read, study and ask God to come into your life. You will be a better, strong, and happier person. I swear that to you.

Your story is heartbreaking, Rinnie. I’m really glad you had your faith to fall back on when your brother died. You remind me tremendously of my mother, who also finds great comfort in her faith. She tries to make similar appeals for me to return to the church as well, but, like you, she talks past me. And also like you, I have no interest in swaying her from her faith. It is incredibly important to her, and I don’t know how she would handle losing it, if losing it was even a possibility. In fact, I don’t want her to lose it. She is perfect exactly the way she is, and I know her faith has helped her construct that identity.

There are great promises that the Catholic church gives to its members. I wish I could look past all of my own personal difficulties with accepting faith and allow those promises into my life, but I can’t. I’ve asked myself what it would take for me to return to the Catholic church, and I have concluded that nothing short of a supernatural occurrence through which it is irrefutably proven that the Catholic God is the true God will convince me that what I left is the truth. Many people don’t need that. I do. Without that kind of proof, I could not justify belief. I hope it happens, but I’m not holding my breath.

Be safe!

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t know what you consider charity, but I think the lack of it goes both ways. That said, if you’d like to paint me as the bad guy, that’s cool. I’m obviously the odd man out on this forum. We can be done. Enjoy life.

I never accused you of such. I noticed as much looking back at my posts as I did in yours. It is impossible to have honest debates once they’ve started down that road.

 

[rinnie]

Your story is heartbreaking, Rinnie. I’m really glad you had your faith to fall back on when your brother died. You remind me tremendously of my mother, who also finds great comfort in her faith. She tries to make similar appeals for me to return to the church as well, but, like you, she talks past me. And also like you, I have no interest in swaying her from her faith. It is incredibly important to her, and I don’t know how she would handle losing it, if losing it was even a possibility. In fact, I don’t want her to lose it. She is perfect exactly the way she is, and I know her faith has helped her construct that identity.

There are great promises that the Catholic church gives to its members. I wish I could look past all of my own personal difficulties with accepting faith and allow those promises into my life, but I can’t. I’ve asked myself what it would take for me to return to the Catholic church, and I have concluded that nothing short of a supernatural occurrence through which it is irrefutably proven that the Catholic God is the true God will convince me that what I left is the truth. Many people don’t need that. I do. Without that kind of proof, I could not justify belief. I hope it happens, but I’m not holding my breath.

Be safe!

Heartbreaking I wanted it to be heartwarming:hug1:: But thats okay. And you will be fine. Now that I know your Mom has faith, and you know the CC you will be back. Trust me!

These are great promises the CC makes. And you know why? We got a Father who keeps his promises. We, you get it, thats you too!

If you don’t mind me asking I am guessing you are from about 21-35 age range. Am I close. Its common to get lost at that age. My Son is 23. Daughter 26. While my Son never doubted God he does not feel the need to lets say, express his faith and participate in Sunday mass EVERY Sunday. It really makes me But I know that he has to find his way back to the Church. But its common really at any age. But if you don’t mind giving me your age range, its easier to me to relate to you that way. I know what I am dealing with. I am in my 40’s which REMEMBER is the NEW 30!!!

Now my daughter skipped mass quite a bit at that age too. But now at 26 she hardly ever ever misses. But I know there are times she does. But see I am going to tell you a secret about her. Her husband is like you. He is not quite sure

Now if my DAD was living he would not be able to accept this. I must admit its hard to understand. But I can see also how as hard as it is for me to not understand its hard for you guys too.

But I remember one thing My Mom and Dad did tell me years ago. All I can do is try to be a great example for my faith and not PREACH.

NOT THATS HARD!! So remember as hard as it is for you to see that light, Its harder for me not to preach!

My Son said Mom you should have been a Priest, I said I am a girl, he said then a nun!: Then of course my Husband said, I am sure glad she didn’t.

BUt think I can help you, and I think you can help me. And I think we are going to become friends. I want to try anyway.

I am hope I can somehow be blessed enough by God to bring you back to the barn as they say. You know the sheep thing: And maybe you can help me to understand my son-in-law and help me not to come on too strong and push him away from the Church.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Your story is heartbreaking, Rinnie. I’m really glad you had your faith to fall back on when your brother died. You remind me tremendously of my mother, who also finds great comfort in her faith. She tries to make similar appeals for me to return to the church as well, but, like you, she talks past me. And also like you, I have no interest in swaying her from her faith. It is incredibly important to her, and I don’t know how she would handle losing it, if losing it was even a possibility. In fact, I don’t want her to lose it. She is perfect exactly the way she is, and I know her faith has helped her construct that identity.

There are great promises that the Catholic church gives to its members. I wish I could look past all of my own personal difficulties with accepting faith and allow those promises into my life, but I can’t. I’ve asked myself what it would take for me to return to the Catholic church, and I have concluded that [SIGN]nothing short of a supernatural occurrence [/SIGN]through which it is irrefutably proven that the Catholic God is the true God will convince me that what I left is the truth. Many people don’t need that. I do. Without that kind of proof, I could not justify belief. I hope it happens, but I’m not holding my breath.

Be safe!

Now that easy. You are talking Gods Language there