Why Not?

[PJM]

=Realist;6268128]Your story is heartbreaking, Rinnie. I’m really glad you had your faith to fall back on when your brother died. You remind me tremendously of my mother, who also finds great comfort in her faith. She tries to make similar appeals for me to return to the church as well, but, like you, she talks past me. And also like you, I have no interest in swaying her from her faith. It is incredibly important to her, and I don’t know how she would handle losing it, if losing it was even a possibility. In fact, I don’t want her to lose it. She is perfect exactly the way she is, and I know her faith has helped her construct that identity.

There are great promises that the Catholic church gives to its members. I wish I could look past all of my own personal difficulties with accepting faith and allow those promises into my life, but I can’t. I’ve asked myself what it would take for me to return to the Catholic church, and I have concluded that nothing short of a supernatural occurrence through which it is irrefutably proven that the Catholic God is the true God will convince me that what I left is the truth. Many people don’t need that. I do. Without that kind of proof, I could not justify belief. I hope it happens, but I’m not holding my breath.

Be safe!

***Dear friend in Christ,

May I humbly and sincerely suggest that one’s Faith is a Gift from God. It can [and definetly should and needs to be prayed for] but cannot “be earned.” Rely less on your efforts amd more on God’s Merciful Love for you. Pray humbly daily for Grace, Wisdom and understanding. Be consistant and be patient. GOD WILL ANSWER YOUR PRAYER. ***

 

[Realist]

Heartbreaking I wanted it to be heartwarming:hug1:: But thats okay. And you will be fine. Now that I know your Mom has faith, and you know the CC you will be back. Trust me!

These are great promises the CC makes. And you know why? We got a Father who keeps his promises. We, you get it, thats you too!

If you don’t mind me asking I am guessing you are from about 21-35 age range. Am I close. Its common to get lost at that age. My Son is 23. Daughter 26. While my Son never doubted God he does not feel the need to lets say, express his faith and participate in Sunday mass EVERY Sunday. It really makes me But I know that he has to find his way back to the Church. But its common really at any age. But if you don’t mind giving me your age range, its easier to me to relate to you that way. I know what I am dealing with. I am in my 40’s which REMEMBER is the NEW 30!!!

Now my daughter skipped mass quite a bit at that age too. But now at 26 she hardly ever ever misses. But I know there are times she does. But see I am going to tell you a secret about her. Her husband is like you. He is not quite sure

Now if my DAD was living he would not be able to accept this. I must admit its hard to understand. But I can see also how as hard as it is for me to not understand its hard for you guys too.

But I remember one thing My Mom and Dad did tell me years ago. All I can do is try to be a great example for my faith and not PREACH.

NOT THATS HARD!! So remember as hard as it is for you to see that light, Its harder for me not to preach!

My Son said Mom you should have been a Priest, I said I am a girl, he said then a nun!: Then of course my Husband said, I am sure glad she didn’t.

BUt think I can help you, and I think you can help me. And I think we are going to become friends. I want to try anyway.

I am hope I can somehow be blessed enough by God to bring you back to the barn as they say. You know the sheep thing: And maybe you can help me to understand my son-in-law and help me not to come on too strong and push him away from the Church.

You nailed it. I’m 25. This is the first time I’ve thought about it in terms of years, but I guess I shed my faith about 12 years ago. It was pretty difficult not being Catholic (or Christian at all, for that matter) in the community where I grew up, and I think the stigmatization (ironic word choice, right?) of atheism and agnosticism (both lumped into the same category where I grew up) pushed me farther and farther from the church throughout my teen years.

Catholicism became something of an antagonist in my life–I say this not to offend anyone but rather to be honest. Every Sunday my dad would drag me to church and at every meal he’d have his eyes on me as I didn’t pray before dinner. On long car drives we’d argue when I wouldn’t participate in praying the rosary. I know now that he was attempting to get me to return to my faith, but his actions drove a wedge between not only myself and the church but also between myself and him. It’s a wedge that we’re only now beginning to dislodge.

I share my story to try to give you some perspective about your son-in-law. The best you can do is to be a good woman who happens to be Christian. When I think of positive examples of Christianity in my life, my mom stands out. Her empathy is bottomless, and she does not preach. She simply lives her beliefs. When I think of negative examples of Christianity in my life, I think of my dad. I’m not sure he knows what empathy is. He is extremely knowledgeable about the church, far more so than my mom, but he wields his knowledge and his faith with confrontation and judgment. Who do you think is the better standard-bearer for Catholicism?

That said, I will probably never return to the Catholic church. I know what I would need to return, and I doubt strongly that such a thing is possible. But my mind is open. I do not reject any possibilities.

You may also have to accept that your son-in-law will never become a faithful person. But not being a faithful person does not make one a bad person. Religion has the power to severely divide us, and religious differences often make us hostile to one another, but that hostility comes from a lack of empathy. I know why my dad believes in God. I know why my mom believes in God. They’ve told me their stories. Their reasons are their own and they are valid. I know what their faith means to them, and I also know how my faithlessness hurts them. But I can’t believe in something I don’t know how to believe in just because my not believing hurts them.

This is obviously a very difficult situation for my parents, and you sound as though you are in a similar situation. There is not much you can do. What you can’t do is force your faith onto your son-in-law. No one can do that. If I ever return to the church, which, again, I doubt I ever will, it will be because I want to. I will not return because someone else pressures me into it. If my teen years taught me anything, such pressure would only reignite the idea of the church as antagonist. If you hold out hope that your son-in-law will become faithful, you absolutely do not want him to view the church as an antagonist.

That said, I’ve moved away from home. I’m in DC now, where I feel absolutely no pressure from anyone to return to my faith. I have dropped my guard. I no longer harbor animosity towards Catholicism. In fact, when I visit my family, I sometimes go to church with them. And do you know why? I go because I know how much it means to my mom. It’s not all she ever wanted, but I know that being able to share that important part of her life with me in some small way makes her happy.

 

[Realist]

***Dear friend in Christ,

May I humbly and sincerely suggest that one’s Faith is a Gift from God. It can [and definetly should and needs to be prayed for] but cannot “be earned.” Rely less on your efforts amd more on God’s Merciful Love for you. Pray humbly daily for Grace, Wisdom and understanding. Be consistant and be patient. GOD WILL ANSWER YOUR PRAYER. ***

I wasn’t going to respond to this, but I guess I will, because it’s something I hear often enough. I don’t want this to turn into some big debate or flame war. I just want to offer my perspective.

Would it be great if the Catholic god exists? Yes. I would love it. If He exists, then when I die, I would continue living. That’s some pretty powerful stuff. I just strongly doubt He does. Therefore, I have no reason to pray to Him. And if I wanted to go down the prayer path, I feel as though I’d have to pray to every possible deity, just to be safe. That would not only be incredibly time consuming, it would probably also be entirely fruitless. So given my perspective, I have little reason to do it.

It’s kind of a nonstarter to ask a faithless person to pray.

 

[HappyRevert]

You nailed it. I’m 25. This is the first time I’ve thought about it in terms of years, but I guess I shed my faith about 12 years ago. It was pretty difficult not being Catholic (or Christian at all, for that matter) in the community where I grew up, and I think the stigmatization (ironic word choice, right?) of atheism and agnosticism (both lumped into the same category where I grew up) pushed me farther and farther from the church throughout my teen years.

Catholicism became something of an antagonist in my life–I say this not to offend anyone but rather to be honest. Every Sunday my dad would drag me to church and at every meal he’d have his eyes on me as I didn’t pray before dinner. On long car drives we’d argue when I wouldn’t participate in praying the rosary. I know now that he was attempting to get me to return to my faith, but his actions drove a wedge between not only myself and the church but also between myself and him. It’s a wedge that we’re only now beginning to dislodge.

I share my story to try to give you some perspective about your son-in-law. The best you can do is to be a good woman who happens to be Christian. When I think of positive examples of Christianity in my life, my mom stands out. Her empathy is bottomless, and she does not preach. She simply lives her beliefs. When I think of negative examples of Christianity in my life, I think of my dad. I’m not sure he knows what empathy is. He is extremely knowledgeable about the church, far more so than my mom, but he wields his knowledge and his faith with confrontation and judgment. Who do you think is the better standard-bearer for Catholicism?

That said, I will probably never return to the Catholic church. I know what I would need to return, and I doubt strongly that such a thing is possible. But my mind is open. I do not reject any possibilities.

You may also have to accept that your son-in-law will never become a faithful person. But not being a faithful person does not make one a bad person. Religion has the power to severely divide us, and religious differences often make us hostile to one another, but that hostility comes from a lack of empathy. I know why my dad believes in God. I know why my mom believes in God. They’ve told me their stories. Their reasons are their own and they are valid. I know what their faith means to them, and I also know how my faithlessness hurts them. But I can’t believe in something I don’t know how to believe in just because my not believing hurts them.

This is obviously a very difficult situation for my parents, and you sound as though you are in a similar situation. There is not much you can do. What you can’t do is force your faith onto your son-in-law. No one can do that. If I ever return to the church, which, again, I doubt I ever will, it will be because I want to. I will not return because someone else pressures me into it. If my teen years taught me anything, such pressure would only reignite the idea of the church as antagonist. If you hold out hope that your son-in-law will become faithful, you absolutely do not want him to view the church as an antagonist.

That said, I’ve moved away from home. I’m in DC now, where I feel absolutely no pressure from anyone to return to my faith. I have dropped my guard. I no longer harbor animosity towards Catholicism. In fact, when I visit my family, I sometimes go to church with them. And do you know why? I go because I know how much it means to my mom. It’s not all she ever wanted, but I know that being able to share that important part of her life with me in some small way makes her happy.

I wanted to thank you for your post . Two of my boys are 20 & 18 and it grieves me greatly that they’ve turned away from the church. I made a conscious choice that once they were 18, I did not require them to attend church or participate because they have to choose of their own free will. I was not compelled into attendance and therefore am trying to give them space to choose so that what has happened to you will not happen to my boys. I appreciate you being candid on what happened in your life. It is very painful for devout parents to see their children step away, but reassuring that giving them space is probably the best path since they must ultimately choose for themselves.

Again, thank you.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Buddy, and the reason you went to Church with your Mom is the Love in you. You have so much love in you. I understand what you are saying. Sometimes Parents can be can take the teachings of the CHurch to extreeeeeeeeeme.

My Son told me he actually loves Church, he just hates waking up. No excuse, just the truth I guess. But I remember those days.

My daughter kept it from me about my SIL. Then it came out after the marriage. But you know what, he never stops her from Church, He got married in the RCC for her, He went to classes. And he helps my husband help Father around the CHurch ALOT. Thats a start. And he did come for Christmas.

I think he like you had Church as a big fight in his family. His gram was Catholic, his mom not and hated the Mother, etc. you know the story.

So he just decided to forget Church all and God all together. But I hope we can change his view on Church and God.

I am trying to teach him you can be Catholic and Human too. We sin just like everyone else. But he is kind like you. Here is what is weird, he always helps at the Church and he likes Father alot. Father says when are you going to join the Church, He says Father are you going to ask me that every time you see me. Fathers says YEP!

He says we will see. Father told my daughter ironically the same as my Mom and Dad, Don’t push, don’t give up your faith, and be a good example for God.

He never liked bikes. Now him and my SOn look like they have been bikers their whole life. Harley has become a way of life, They live, breath and sleep bikes now. SO I know when Father has blessing of the Bikes, Hes in My husband just laughs. He says and how they made fun of me. So we are working on it. ANd he promised her for now, when they have kids he will never talk against God. So thats a start to me.

Hey DC isn’t real far. How about getting a Harley, Or honda My Hubby has a vtx, but a bike and come over this year for blessing of the bikes. I promise it will be fun. ANd bike weeks in Aug in Maryland and the have the most beautiful Catholic Church in the world

Fun Pubs too!!!

 

[PJM]

So lets ship faith and jump to LOGIC:

Does God exist?

1. Changing things exist.
2. Everything that changes is composed of act and potency.
3. No potency can actualize itself.
4. Therefore, there must be something purely actual

A philosophical guide to Christian Logic; defending our Faith

We must seek Wisdom where it is found and we must seek understanding through “logic.”

An intellectual exercise.

We must be able to understand “logic” sufficiently to understand ourselves, how to use it in explaining various TRUTHS of our Faith. Thus. We must accept it ourselves. “One cannot share what one does nor possess.”

An FYI: Priest are first trained in Philosophy to prepare them to understand how to “think logically.”

The three Foundational Principles of All Logic

A “THING” is what it is
A “THING” is NOT another THING
A “THING” is either Caused or it is It’s Own Cause (self-sufficient)
A “THING” is what it is… nothing less and nothing more

To be “self-sufficient” means that “it needs nothing else.” It is completely self-sufficient, thus it is “PERFECT.”

Stated again: a THING that is self-sufficient is PERFECT

What does PERFECT MEAN? Nothing missing, nothing more needed.

Example: If you get a 100% on a test. It is “perfect.” Nothing can be added to make it “more perfect,” and taking anything away from it makes it “im-perfect.”

“Self-sufficient” means: That it never had to be created! If it had to be created, then it
was not “self-sufficient” to begin with.

CREATO is Latin for created.

For some-THING to exist it either had to be 1. Created, or 2. HAD to ”Always be!”

Either it is CREATED or It is the CREATOR!

4.     The Philosophical CORE of all Logic

How does one discern “The Origin?”

1. Everything has two properties.

EXISTANCE = That it is!
ESSENCE = What it is

This is the very philosophical core of “Being!”

For Human Life the FACT of our “existence” is…

For humanity, our Existence is “FINITE.” Which means with a beginning and an end.

The “WHAT” of our existence is defined by our ESSENCE.

All creatures, indeed, all creation is defined by it’s ESSENCE

Definition = “De /finit/ ion “ = setting it’s limits, and labeling it

By breaking it down and eliminating what IT “is not,” we are left with what IT is!
5. Definition of the CREATOR

1. God has defined Himself as “I AM”

Exodus Chapter 3: “13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations”

“I AM” The Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the one who always was, is, and always shall be.  

               2.   God is defined by God’s Existence = God is!

               3.    CREATURES are defined by their ESSENCE

       4.    In Him we LIVE, MOVE and HAVE OUR BEING

1. Our Existence FLOWS FROM God’s Existence
2. Through Him all things “are made” (brought into existence.)

God… is… God

Man… is… man

God is NOT man

Man is NOT God

1. ONLY GOD can say, “My Essence is to be in Existence!”

2.  All “FINITE” Existence Flows THROUGH the Infinite (God alone)

3. The three BIG Misunderstandings

4. The Nature of man = body, soul in unity!

5. The nature of God = Spirit

6. Misunderstanding the nature of “Heaven.”
   
           Not understanding these three issues, is the root cause of misunderstanding with all 
           other religions
   
                            7.     The Nature of Man

How can we know that our bodies have a SOUL?

What is “MATTER” = as it relates to humanity = that which is composed of body parts

That “Which is “NOT MATTER” is single cannot be broken down has No PARTS

Something with “NO PARTS” we call SPIRITUAL

                                 8.     The Human Soul is

“It Is” (spiritual and immaterial)

“It Is Here”

“It Is Now”

How can we know that the Human Soul exist?

The Human Soul Generates Ideas, one cannot separate “An Idea!”

“Ideas” have “No Parts”, and thus are ‘SPIRITUAL”, proving the existence of our soul.

Where do “ideas” originate? In our soul!

                                   9.     The Basic Principles involved

The rule of The Material and the Immaterial Universe

A corolary result: Ideas are Spiritual, the “brain” is Material. A “spiritual thing” cannot be generated or created by a “Material Thing.”

Everything that is “made” comes from something greater than itself

Something cannot give “what it does not possess.”

How does an idea come into existence? Before the wheel. Air travel Ect. someone had to formulate the idea for them.

Matter is always inferior to the immaterial

The “Spirit” always rules “Matter.” “Matter” obeys (at the service of) the “spirit.”

The lesser of two things cannot rule the greater of two things (can’t give what it does not possess). And the lesser of two things can’t generate the greater of two things.

Example: A man “can make” a house; But a house cannot make a man

 

[Realist]

I applaud your efforts, PJM, but I have very little idea what you’re trying to prove. Are you trying to prove the existence of the Catholic god? If so, you haven’t done it. I can’t knock you for not being able to do it, because that’s a pretty tall order, but I’m left confused.

You begin by starting to make an argument that I assume is attempting to prove the existence of a creator. That’s fine. I’m down with that. You didn’t quite make it all the way there, but even if you did, you’re forgetting that I’m agnostic. I’m not an atheist. A supreme being may or may not exist. But if one does, the problem becomes trying to figure out who that supreme being is and what It wants. That’s where religions come into play. Religions try to figure out the who and the what. A big gaping hole you’re not addressing is why, in my quest for truth, I should spend every day praying to the supreme being you believe in.

Then you cite the Bible as proof in your logic study, which is absolutely confounding. I mean, it’s fine to talk about the Bible as infallible when you’re having discussions with fellow Christians, but you’re talking to an agnostic here. Why would I accept that as a credible source?

And after that, you assume into existence souls. But it looks like you don’t understand that’s what you’re doing. You seem to think you’re actually proving that souls exist by saying that ideas are immaterial and therefore spiritual and therefore souls exist. Do you think that’s a solid argument? I’m just asking because I want to know the caliber of the person I’m dealing with here.

It’s fine if you believe in the Catholic god and that souls exist and that when you die you’re going to Heaven, but you should probably give up trying to prove any of it. It’s not working.

 

[Realist]

Good to hear from you again, Rinnie! Hope you’re weathering the storm. It looks like the rest of the week will be a bit of a wash as far as work and grad school are concerned. I’m going a little stir crazy in my apartment.

Your son-in-law seems like a good guy. For now, just be happy he’s that! Your daughter could have married a Catholic that turned out to be a real schmuck. I know my parents aren’t thrilled that my fiancé, like me, is agnostic, but they’re happy she’s caring, smart, devoted, and able to support their deadbeat son as he drops 60k getting his MFA in fiction writing, of all things.

As a writer, I’m really interested in motivations and what’s at stake for people. So I have to ask, why does it upset you that your son-in-law isn’t Catholic? I don’t ask to be rude. I ask because our reactions are specific to ourselves and I’m curious to know why you, in particular, are having the reaction you’re having. It seems like there are a lot of possible reasons. Is it because you think his faithlessness could rub off on your daughter? Is it because you’re embarrassed by his lack of faith? Is it because you’re concerned about how his faithlessness will affect your grandchildren? Is it because faith is such a tremendous part of your life that you’re offended that it’s not part of his? Is it because the people you’re close to have been faithful and his not being faithful is unnerving and strange?

That came off a bit like a multiple choice question, but I’m just trying to figure it out.

I’ve had some pretty tough conversations with my parents regarding this topic. I realized one day that my faithlessness must make them unbelievably sad because, in their mind, when they’re in Heaven, I won’t be with them. That realization was a breakthrough moment for me. So I confronted them about it. Ultimately what I learned was that neither of them had actually made it that far in their thought process. They both firmly believe I will eventually return to the church.

But, and here’s the thing–and this is relevant to you and your son-in-law–I believe such thinking is willfully naive. Now, it’s certainly possible that my criterion for believing in the Catholic god will one day be fulfilled and I will return to the church, but it is also certainly possible (and from my perspective, far more so) that my criterion will never be met and I will remain agnostic for the rest of my life. When I pressed them to consider this possibility, they brushed it off. (This is a bit of an aside, so I’ll throw it in a parenthetical: that actually annoyed me a little bit, to be honest. I don’t appreciate being treated as if I’m going through a phase and eventually I’ll grow out of it. Your son-in-law, while he may never say it, likely feels the same way. Put yourself in his shoes. When he’s spending time with you, does he ever ask you if you’ll consider abandoning your beliefs in favor of his? Pretend for a moment he actually did say that. How would it make you feel?) The problem with brushing off a very real possibility is that it is a very real possibility and you may have to someday deal with it. So my question for you is: what would it mean to you if your son-in-law never converted and remained agnostic for the rest of his life? What’s at stake for you that you’re losing in that scenario? I know to ask this question because of my training as a writer, but I ask it because I think you can give me some insight into my parents.

But onto less charged topics!

I wish I could afford a motorcycle. My old 89 Buick died this summer in Virgina and my fiancé and I have been motorized transportationless since. But, ironically enough, we’re both big into bikes. Not the motorized kind, but the good ol’ fashioned simple mechanical kind. They get us around the district just fine, but I doubt they’d carry us too far into Maryland!

But speaking of beautiful Catholic churches. Have you been to the national cathedral? Because I’m not religious, I hadn’t bothered to check the place out, but then my little sister was in town with her choir and sang there last winter. It’s gorgeous! I can’t even describe the calmness I felt in that place, and the music was beautiful. If you’re ever in the area and haven’t been inside, do yourself a favor and check it out! I imagine it’s all that much more impressive to a faithful person.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Realist and actually I did go into that Church, Huge huh, and Beautiful. At the time I had one of them Aunts that was really real Catholic just like real Crazy. She went to CHurch every day as my Dad also did, but my Dad never acted like her. You know the kind if you say one bad word you are going to hell! She was nothing but a burden for us and our family. Very demanding. My Sister ended up with her until God came for her. My Sister always said the good Lord didn’t want her and the devil was afraid she would take over the place.

I understand about the car. My son finally became a ford Mechanic. We always have issues. As a matter of fact the rear end of the hubbys truck went out just Sat, When we really need it. So he has my car right now. Thats life sometimes it really sucks.

Now to your question, No it did not bother me he wasn’t Catholic, my husband wasn’t when we got married and he is a better Catholic then even I now. He does more for the Church then I ever could.

Here is another shock she actually moved in with him a year before she got married Oh I though I was so cool you know, No bragging but everyone thinks she is my sister. ANd half if not more of my friends live together. My Brother did it for years and my sister got on the wrong road too. ANd all her kids, my brothers etc. But MINE

IT killed me. She was living in sin, It did bother me. SO I did not know what to do. I cried, drank a few to many a couple of times, quit talking to her for 2 weeks, Actually that is the first time ever I came on this site. And boy did they let me have it. They were pretty mean to me. cont…

 

[rinnie]

See she was comming home late anyway so I gave her a choice and I lost. I got people saying what did you expect etc.

So anyway one day I told her okay lets come to a truce. I lit candles, and prayed everyday and asked her one thing. Promise me when you go to work that you pray the rosary and go to the Blessed Mother. I failed you as a Mother but she never will. And then for the first time in my life I let it go. See I always knew God would do things his way, but deep deep inside I always believed he needed my help. Well I learned he don’t and never did.

So I got the famous WHATEVER. Please realist never do that to your Mom ANd Dad again. When they say that word it turns me into the devil I can just kill.

SO anyway she actually did do it. She prayed to the rosary every day. That was in Feb. That Sept she was married. I swear it. Here is the best thing, she called and said Mom guess what, at marriage classes we played bingo. I got a CD of the Rosary. We both laughed so hard.

I made her come clean with the Priest. And thank God for him. He is only a year older than I and he told her, and me later its not his job to judge, Its his job to help people get it right with God. God doesn’t care what we do wrong as much as he cares to see us get it right again.

He said thats what God wants to see, God wants us happy. cont…

 

[rinnie]

So now she is very happy and living in the light of God.

Now remember at that time I just knew he was not Catholic. Well now I find out he is not sure.:stretcher: I am like WHAT!!

MY son told me, You know what I did, I turned into my dad. I was like Jesus, Joseph, and Mary what the hell are you people telling me. My Sons like yep, thats it ole lady river.

Well I let it sink in, then I asked her. She said yep its true Mom I married the devil. I said why didn’t you tell me, She said are you crazy, For the first time in my life I thought thank GOd Daddys dead. My Dad could never handle that one,

SO then I kinda beat around the bush at first. He is a tall kid like 6.5. Has tatoos all over him, My daughter said its just the evil comming out of him. See you can’t take offense, we make a joke out of everything, And laugh about everything. We can’t help it. MY family was always like that. I get into alot of trouble on here about it. (alot of Pms about it) But some I will say, do enjoy my humor

So anyway he just finally said that he can’t understand what we see, but he promised her he will try. Now you asked me if I am afraid she will turn him away from God. Now I can answer with a 100% Never. She knows she is a sinner like all of us, but she never had a doubt in her mind about God.

Now here is something ever more weird. My Right hand on this one. She was dating a guy for 5 years and he wanted to marry her, but I could tell she didnt love him. To make a long story short she finally cut it off. She just didnt want to be alone and date again the whole thing. Then she dated for a year and no one was who she wanted, She said I give up, I said go to God, Pray, and let it go. Quit looking. We were at the pool, I will never forget, she gave me the famous whatever. But I left and I could tell she prayed. 2 weeks later he came into her life, she fell head over, he did too. and now 3 years later they have a year and a half of marriage in. SO see God don’t screw up. He did not send her the wrong person. It is going to be her that brings him to God with our help. But here is the problem.

Now its a big one. God takes his time. He does not do it im MY TIME. Now trust me, that is a problem with me, this God doing things his way and not mine. When I do go to the next place and meet him face to face we are going to have a long talk about this

But You know God, he has his way all the time. Thats why I love him so much. He always gets his man!! So here is how it has happend to date.

He said he would never step foot in a Church, especially Catholic, and he not only stepped in, he married her in one. He said he would never go to Church we got him there quite a few times already. He has helped my husband at least 15 times fix the Church.

And here is the last thing he knew my husband was there a few weeks ago, came on his own without being asked, and helped my husband. He seems to be pulled there. ALot.

Sorry so long:blush:

 

[PJM]

=Realist;6276551]I applaud your efforts, PJM, but I have very little idea what you’re trying to prove. Are you trying to prove the existence of the Catholic god? If so, you haven’t done it. I can’t knock you for not being able to do it, because that’s a pretty tall order, but I’m left confused.

You begin by starting to make an argument that I assume is attempting to prove the existence of a creator. That’s fine. I’m down with that. You didn’t quite make it all the way there, but even if you did, you’re forgetting that I’m agnostic. I’m not an atheist.

OK

Step, one is establishing that there is a “source for Creation.” We choose to call this force “God” but that is not yet key to what I am currently pointing out, which is namely “some powerful, intellegent source” is responsible for Creation.

Step two it to look briefly at the complexity of Creation in order to demonistrate that it was well planned and perfectly execuated.

Science has proven that there are millions of glaxies, and each galaxy has millions of component stars and planets. Science also tells us that in order to travel from one end to the other of OUR galaxy [with light traveling at about 1700 miles per second] that it would take about "10,000 " light years. Further there are MILLIONS of planets in our Galaxy, BUT only ONE; EARTH, has the ability to sustain life.

Science also tells us that the average human person consist of some 10,000 -Million cells, which each having numerous atoms. An each atom is said to be as complicatd /complex, as the entire galaxy. Further as advanced as science is we yet do not fully understanding the origin of sight and hearing.

Now in the the first post we proved [tried to] that evolution alone cannot account for all that exist and all that we are aware of. Physical things and spiritual things cannot have the same progression. And what is can only be what it is and nothing more. Also something cannot share or give what it does not have.

Today’s points are:

Intellegent and an incomprehensibly powerful source had to be involved in the creation of the Universe and one assumes keeping it in place.[Which too cannot be simply an accident.]

The complexites of the Universe, and of the human person prove that the source of Creation HAD to have a plan, a purpose, a goal. What what we know of the Universe and man, simply could not happen by accident; coincedience, or luck. Certainly not by evolution alone.

So why did this source CREATE the Universe?

Why in the entire known universe, is Earth alone able to sustain life?

How and WHY did humanity come into existence? Clearly the universe could exist without humanity.

And this is summed up in asking; what is the First cause?

Can we agree on the basics of my post 1 and 2?