Why not?

[Stepson]

Hey Stepson,
What’s convinced you that the current Catholic view of the primacy of the pope is ok? Just curious, because this would be the stumbling block for me, in light of the council of Nicea, and Orthodoxy’s rejection of universal jurisdiction and infallibility.

Jon

This was from another poster that helped relieved my anxiety about papal infallibility.

Although I am a revert, this was a problem for me. It turns out I completely misunderstood the doctrine.

Here are somethings I came to learn:

1. The Pope does not have authority to override previous dogmatic teachings whether from Tradition, Ecumenical Council, or even Prior Infallible doctrines from previous Popes.
2. Papal infallibility is rarely used. Not everything that comes from the Popes mouth is infallible. In fact, in Pope Benedict VI book, Jesus of Nazareth, he explicitly states the book is based on his own opinions and that it is not written under Papal Infallibility and Catholics are free to disagree.
3. What made me come to love Papal infallibility was that it was the opposite of what I understood. In fact it turns out that the Pope is actually weaker than any Protestant Leader. Let’s look at the Anglican Church as an example. The Anglican Church ordains women as priests, permits ordained priests to marry, permits the use of contraception. People are always trying to get the Catholic Church to change its position on these issues but the simple truth is that the Pope has no authority to change these positions and neither do ecumenical councils.

The fact is that the Catholicism has the same problem of secular society trying to creep in. The difference is that there is no one in the Catholic Church has the authority to permit the changes secular society is seeking.

And this

By the way, I also want to add that the two of the most recent examples of the use of Papal Infallibility were actually more like informal long distance ecumenical councils. The Pope relied on the opinion of the Bishops.

1. The Immaculate Conception: First, this is a doctrine we actually got from the East who were the first to establish a feast day for this doctrine. When the Pope wanted to define it as dogma he asked all of the Bishops to please give their opinion as to whether or not they agreed. The overwhelming majority of Bishops agreed with defining it as Dogma.
2. The Assumption of Mary: The Bishops were actually the ones that requested this be defined as dogma. The Pope even went out of his way to define it in a way that did not contradict the Eastern version of the Tradition.

I like the part where they poster explains that these beliefs cannot be changed even if secular society wants it to. Again this is comfort, and is not a jump in the river. I still have a lot of learning to do.

I don’t like the way secular society came in and changed the belief of the Lutheran Church ELCA. And now the Presbyterian Church. I understand that the Presbyterian vote took a number of years to pass but this group continued their attack until they got their agenda passed.

Where does this stop? I’m watching this type of secular attack coming in from all angles against our Christian life (Boy Scouts, school, church, attack on the pledge of allegiance.) I want to belong to a church that is a safe harbor from the secular attacks. I know, I know… sounds like I should join hands with my fantasy in a field of flowers and start singing “I’d like to teach the world to sing.”

 

[JonNC]

This was from another poster that helped relieved my anxiety about papal infallibility.

And this

I like the part where they poster explains that these beliefs cannot be changed even if secular society wants it to. Again this is comfort, and is not a jump in the river. I still have a lot of learning to do.

I don’t like the way secular society came in and changed the belief of the Lutheran Church ELCA. And now the Presbyterian Church. I understand that the Presbyterian vote took a number of years to pass but this group continued their attack until they got their agenda passed.

Where does this stop? I’m watching this type of secular attack coming in from all angles against our Christian life (Boy Scouts, school, church, attack on the pledge of allegiance.) I want to belong to a church that is a safe harbor from the secular attacks. I know, I know… sounds like I should join hands with my fantasy in a field of flowers and start singing “I’d like to teach the world to sing.”

I appreciate what you have said, and I share with you the concern (at least this is what I’ve inferred) that Lutheran polity is often far too weak, too congregational, and lacking a strong hierarchy.
Thanks for the insight.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Thank you for posting the Augsburg Confession. It was most enlightening. It does indeed sound quite Catholic, except for, as you pointed out, the fact that it’s lacking the metaphysical terminology. It sounds to me like the Lutherans prefered a more… Eastern attitude toward the Sacrament: to let the Mystery remain a Mystery and just focus on the importance of humbly, but clearly, believing the most important aspect of it: namely, that Christ really, truly, substantially, is there.

Live long and prosper,
Jack

Hi Jack,
I think you are right, that the desire is to accept the mystery as mystery, in some ways like the Orthodox. We western Christians have a tendency to try and explain everything, and sometimes our explanations get in the way of our unity of belief, in this case, the real, substantial presence of our Lord’s body and blood.

Oh, and I wanted to add, Jack, that your comment:

As I said, our simple offering of bread and wine, which represent us, is completely replaced by Christ in exactly the same way that we, who deserved to die on that Cross, were not allowed to be taken up on it, but were replaced by Christ who suffered instead of us.

really had a powerful effect on me this morning, as I prepared to recieve. Thanks for it.

Peace and long life,
Jon

 

[Stepson]

I appreciate what you have said, and I share with you the concern (at least this is what I’ve inferred) that Lutheran polity is often far too weak, too congregational, and lacking a strong hierarchy.
Thanks for the insight.

Jon

I couldn’t agree more on your Lutheran insight. My family belongs to AFLC and their congregation are in a constant battle with the pastor and each other on how to “modernize” the church to reach young people. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians has never been a recipe for success.

The LCMS is my safe harbor for now. If they ever go down the ELCA path, I feel a swim coming on. I am also thinking of my little ones as well. This is a very changing (not in the good way) society we live in. I want to leave them in a church in which they will be safe as they grow with Christ.

 

[Tiberius1701]

Hi Jack,
I think you are right, that the desire is to accept the mystery as mystery, in some ways like the Orthodox. We western Christians have a tendency to try and explain everything, and sometimes our explanations get in the way of our unity of belief, in this case, the real, substantial presence of our Lord’s body and blood.

I definitely agree in most cases. It’s very, very easy to get caught up on the details and lose sight of the bigger picture. Although, at the same time, I would have to say that I trust the Holy Spirit’s choice to allow the Western Church to define it metaphysically as probably being necessary for those people who need to fully understand the mechanics of things before they concent, you know?

Oh, and I wanted to add, Jack, that your comment:

As I said, our simple offering of bread and wine, which represent us, is completely replaced by Christ in exactly the same way that we, who deserved to die on that Cross, were not allowed to be taken up on it, but were replaced by Christ who suffered instead of us.

really had a powerful effect on me this morning, as I prepared to recieve. Thanks for it.

Peace and long life,
Jon

Yeah, when I was writing the post, I had initially only put that tidbit in as a clause in a previous sentence, but then I stopped and thought about it, and… I just found myself thinking that it’s something that’s too easily forgotten, so I decided to highlight it a little more. I’m really, really glad that it you feel closer to Christ this morning.

 

[Cat]

We converted in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism.

I think the biggest barrier for many evangelical Protestants is the rift that will inevitably come about between them, their beloved families, and their close friends.

Evangelical Protestantism is a way of life, a culture. Evangelicals spend a great deal of physical time in the church, or involved with church life. Most of their social activities are done with other evangelicals (although that is changing as more and more evangelicals get their children involved with sports and/or arts, and are faced with many hours of practices, competitions, performances, etc.)

Even though you hear about occasional horror stories (like ours–we were kicked out of our evangelical church), for the most part, evangelicalism is delightful. The people are loving, friendly, and faith-filled. To this day, I miss the great times and friends we had in the evangelical world. Just yesterday, our dear pastor of ten years passed away, and all of us are connecting again to grieve together. Our daughter wrote a touching tribute to him–he’s the only good pastor that she has any memory of.

So to walk away from all this life and become Catholic is very scary. Many evangelicals do not drink alcohol, never have, and never will–for me, THIS was the single biggest stumbling block while we were trying to decide to convert to Catholicism. I did NOT want to be around liquor. I still don’t. I still am extremely uncomfortable at most Catholic social functions, and so at this point, I don’t socialize a lot with Christians. I do most of my socializing with the ice skating crowd.

And Catholic culture is so different than evangelical Protestantism. Someone in this thread mentioned music–oh, my, my, do I EVER miss Protestant singing and music! I like most Catholic contemporary music, so it’s hard to hear Catholics denounce the Catholic songs as “banal” or “Protestant”–hey, I was Protestant for 47 years and heavily involved in music ministry and I never, EVER heard any of the Haugen, Haas, Scutte, or any of those so-called “Protestant” songs.

I’ve already spent the first 47 years of my life in the “Christian Music Wars” in the Protestant churches. The wars are kind of over and there’s an uneasy peace right now, at least in evangelical churches. But here I am in the Catholic Church, and right back in the music battles again and I just want to scream, “STOP IT!”

It’s often lonely here, although I love being with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Like I said, I still miss those heady days of being part of friendly, safe, and fun evangelical Protestant culture. It was hard to give it up.

Family is even harder. My husband’s side of the family is OK with it. But my side of the family…I still haven’t told my father and brother that we converted. I’m frankly afraid to tell them. I just hope I don’t die before my father dies–I can’t even imagine how he will react to a Catholic funeral for his daughter.

 

[Curious_Seed]

It is. And Thanks

Do you beleive in the real presence such as what the Luteran or Orthodox hold?

Could you elaborate?

Not being Catholic I can see why that would be.

Why?

Do you believe that the Apostels were given a commisiion seperate form the rest of the diciples?

Matthew 26:26 is too ambiguous to be definitive about Christ’s intention, at the Last Supper, with respect to transubstantiation of the bread.

Simply not clear enough, so must fall to probably not.

The infallibility of the Magisterium needs God’s authority to be so and has it not.

Not sure I understand the intent of the last question about the Apostles, disciples, and commission.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Cat, thanks for taking time to share that. Do I remember you from Christian Forums?
Anyway you hit so much on the mark…My coworker/friend ex druggie and I both had powerful conversion experiences in 1973…We worked and lived in an Italian catholic town and had many catholic coworkers and dates.Those we knew were hard partiers. We were use to all aspects of catholic life and yes alcohol played a part…After our conversion christian lifestyle was far different…The evangelicals in the office really loved and witnessed to all who would listen…They had a bible study and we got involved in it…No one catholic wanted to belong to it and we didn’t discus anything that would have offended them…Catholicism seem way foreign from what they said and did to what I was learning in the bible…Non were evangelistic or wanted to discuss thing related to the Lord…It was like they fulfilled their sunday obligation and the rest of the time was theirs…Remember everything we do we do by faith and God rewards those who diligently seek after Him no matter what name is on the sign out front…I understand about the praise and worship…I haven’t been to church in 9 months(complications from a work accident) and I miss the corporate worship…Every week she comes home with responses from church members who miss me…They are like family and really love/care for each other…God Bless…

 

[Stepson]

We converted in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism.

I think the biggest barrier for many evangelical Protestants is the rift that will inevitably come about between them, their beloved families, and their close friends.

Evangelical Protestantism is a way of life, a culture. Evangelicals spend a great deal of physical time in the church, or involved with church life. Most of their social activities are done with other evangelicals (although that is changing as more and more evangelicals get their children involved with sports and/or arts, and are faced with many hours of practices, competitions, performances, etc.)

Even though you hear about occasional horror stories (like ours–we were kicked out of our evangelical church), for the most part, evangelicalism is delightful. The people are loving, friendly, and faith-filled. To this day, I miss the great times and friends we had in the evangelical world. Just yesterday, our dear pastor of ten years passed away, and all of us are connecting again to grieve together. Our daughter wrote a touching tribute to him–he’s the only good pastor that she has any memory of.

So to walk away from all this life and become Catholic is very scary. Many evangelicals do not drink alcohol, never have, and never will–for me, THIS was the single biggest stumbling block while we were trying to decide to convert to Catholicism. I did NOT want to be around liquor. I still don’t. I still am extremely uncomfortable at most Catholic social functions, and so at this point, I don’t socialize a lot with Christians. I do most of my socializing with the ice skating crowd.

And Catholic culture is so different than evangelical Protestantism. Someone in this thread mentioned music–oh, my, my, do I EVER miss Protestant singing and music! I like most Catholic contemporary music, so it’s hard to hear Catholics denounce the Catholic songs as “banal” or “Protestant”–hey, I was Protestant for 47 years and heavily involved in music ministry and I never, EVER heard any of the Haugen, Haas, Scutte, or any of those so-called “Protestant” songs.

I’ve already spent the first 47 years of my life in the “Christian Music Wars” in the Protestant churches. The wars are kind of over and there’s an uneasy peace right now, at least in evangelical churches. But here I am in the Catholic Church, and right back in the music battles again and I just want to scream, “STOP IT!”

It’s often lonely here, although I love being with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Like I said, I still miss those heady days of being part of friendly, safe, and fun evangelical Protestant culture. It was hard to give it up.

Family is even harder. My husband’s side of the family is OK with it. But my side of the family…I still haven’t told my father and brother that we converted. I’m frankly afraid to tell them. I just hope I don’t die before my father dies–I can’t even imagine how he will react to a Catholic funeral for his daughter.

Thank you so much for your posts.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=Curious Seed;7924998]Matthew 26:26 is too ambiguous to be definitive about Christ’s intention, at the Last Supper, with respect to transubstantiation of the bread.

Althought, I can see the point of view of Orthodox and others reguarding Trasubtantiation, It appears that Christ was clear in that it was no longer Bread, but was his body. Expectically if looked at with John 6:32-33 and 54

COLOR=“red”]S

imply not clear enough, so must fall to probably not. Please expaned, which scaraments and what is the issue with them.

The infallibility of the Magisterium needs God’s authority to be so and has it not.

Does that not come form the authority of the apostles, hand on to the bishops up to this Day?

Not sure I understand the intent of the last question about the Apostles, disciples, and commission.

I will try to be clearer. Do you beleive that the Apostles were given instructions, jobs, and authorty to carry them out that were not given to other disicple outside of the 12. hence why in Acts we see that they had to choose matthisis and make him one of the 12. and why there were the 7 then later choosen and ordained as deacons. And that even within the 12 there was a pecking order. Chairman so to speak. As to Vicar means one that is a represtive for another the Pope being the Vicar of Christ is that As Christ is head of the Chruch, until his return the Pope holds that leadership role of the church on earth.

 

[anp1215]

I came very close to converting at the Easter Vigil this year, but backed out at the last minute (and I’m talking Holy Thursday last minute) primarily because of how the church views mortal sin and its consequences. So basically I would play out a hypothetical situation in my head and then ask myself “Would God really condemn someone to eternal hellfire because of this?”

The CC says that ABC is always a mortal sin. I envisioned a couple in their 40s who already had 7 children. Not to mention being strapped financially and emotionally, the wife has a serious health condition that would render further childbearing extremely dangerous. I cannot believe that God would condemn such a couple to Hell if they decided to use a condom to avoid conception.

The CC says that unless it is impossible to make it to Mass on Sunday, missing it is a mortal sin. My husband usually works until midnight or 1 o clock Saturday night, not getting home until 1 or 2 am. On Sunday, he has to be at work from 11 am to 9 pm. The only Masses he could attend would be the 7 am or 9 am (if he brought his work clothes to church). He doesn’t want to get up that early after coming home so late. He is very tired from the previous night. Do I believe God would condemn him to Hell for eternity for this? No. I cannot and will never believe that.

The CC says that for a Catholic to leave the church is a mortal sin. I cannot believe that God would condemn someone to Hell because they chose to attend, say, a Methodist Church.

I didn’t want to live my entire life constantly worrying about the state of mine or my husband’s souls.

Anyway, after asking myself those questions, I decided I did not see God this way, so I did not convert.

 

[Hiskid1973]

after asking myself those questions, I decided I did not see God this way, so I did not convert.

I wholly understand, the more I spend at this form to learn the more I think of the word “legalistic”. I can’t count the times I’ve read “is this venial”, is this mortal.I have been walking with Christ for almost 40 years and the conviction of the Holy Spirit has proven well over the years in keeping me close to the Lord…Sin is sin and any sin can do damage some more quickly…I always liken sin to standing on a sheet of ice, walking close to the Lord keeps it frozen and safe…Little lies like cheating on our taxes or being unkind puts little cracks but walking in repentance from the Holy Spirit’'s conviction freezes it back…Say getting drunk, constant lying or cohabitating(sex outside marriage) is like dropping large rocks around you, sorta blowing it off puts us in the position of getting a hard wake up call to repent and get close to the Lord…God just doesn’t let us wonder away very easy…To be honest in over almost 40 years i have never met someone who had and abiding faith in Christ just trash it and walk away. I do know a few who had major wake up calls and get back on track…Everything we do is forgivable barring blasphemy of the Holy Spirit…I have encouraged many in the past who thought they committed that very sin…I asked if it’s bothering them and they say yes…I remind them someone who would commit that would care less that there doing it…As for the missing Mass I always wondered about that also…I know many people who look forward to gathering together and want to be there… I missed church many times over the summer camping and had some good family time church in the outdoors…I haven’t been to church for almost 9 months due to complications from work fall and I miss gathering corporately…I just a lot of “controls” to keep the flock in line…
Grace and peace to you…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=anp1215;7934279]I came very close to converting at the Easter Vigil this year, but backed out at the last minute (and I’m talking Holy Thursday last minute) primarily because of how the church views mortal sin and its consequences. So basically I would play out a hypothetical situation in my head and then ask myself “Would God really condemn someone to eternal hellfire because of this?”

The CC says that ABC is always a mortal sin. I envisioned a couple in their 40s who already had 7 children. Not to mention being strapped financially and emotionally, the wife has a serious health condition that would render further childbearing extremely dangerous. I cannot believe that God would condemn such a couple to Hell if they decided to use a condom to avoid conception.

Hi there and thank you for answering. I do not no that I would have any thing that may give you reason to reconsider. the one thing I have come to believe is that I do not have answers to concern that you hace raised. I will say that there are alternatives to condems which do not place a person in mortal sin NFP. that are shown to be even more effective.

The CC says that unless it is impossible to make it to Mass on Sunday, missing it is a mortal sin. My husband usually works until midnight or 1 o clock Saturday night, not getting home until 1 or 2 am. On Sunday, he has to be at work from 11 am to 9 pm. The only Masses he could attend would be the 7 am or 9 am (if he brought his work clothes to church). He doesn’t want to get up that early after coming home so late. He is very tired from the previous night. Do I believe God would condemn him to Hell for eternity for this? No. I cannot and will never believe that.

In cases of working it not a sin if you miss Mass, this may fall into that area, However the key word is not that he could not but that he does not want to.

The CC says that for a Catholic to leave the church is a mortal sin. I cannot believe that God would condemn someone to Hell because they chose to attend, say, a Methodist Church.

If you have recieved the truth and then reject it?

I didn’t want to live my entire life constantly worrying about the state of mine or my husband’s souls.

Anyway, after asking myself those questions, I decided I did not see God this way, so I did not convert.

Douay-Rheims Bible- Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

kinda reads as if we should live our lives constantly worrying about the state of our souls.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Douay-Rheims Bible- Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

kinda reads as if we should live our lives constantly worrying about the state of our souls.

It would be if we depended on our works…But we have faith that God is at work in us…Trusting Him to complete the work He started in us…The Holy Spirit’s conviction is a good thing…I have a healthy fear(respect) for God but abide in great peace in my life(not fearful)

 

[Tiberius1701]

Douay-Rheims Bible- Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

kinda reads as if we should live our lives constantly worrying about the state of our souls.

It would be if we depended on our works…But we have faith that God is at work in us…Trusting Him to complete the work He started in us…The Holy Spirit’s conviction is a good thing…I have a healthy fear(respect) for God but abide in great peace in my life(not fearful)

RSV - Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Anp1215, the Catholic Church is only saying the very same thing that the Bible says.

RSV - I Corinthians 4:3-5
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself,** but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.** 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

Why are you not fearful, HisKid1973, when even Paul did not dare claim assurance of his salvation before the Day of Judgement?

 

[Hiskid1973]

RSV - Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Anp1215, the Catholic Church is only saying the very same thing that the Bible says.

RSV - I Corinthians 4:3-5
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself,** but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.** 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

Why are you not fearful, HisKid1973, when even Paul did not dare claim assurance of his salvation before the Day of Judgement?

I’m not fearful because I live close to the Lord…He supplies peace that passes understanding and promises us peace when we keep our mind in Christ…

 

[Tiberius1701]

I’m not fearful because I live close to the Lord…

So do I. So did Paul. But when I was a Protestant, I was even more fearful. I always wondered, “Am I truly forgiven? Have I remembered every sin that God holds against me? Am I sorry enough to be forgiven?” But through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I don’t have to wonder any more. I know, when the priest acting in Persona Christi says, “I absolve you…” I know that I have been absolved. I know that my relationship with God has been restored. That is how I know that I live as close to the Lord as I possibly can. He absolves me, and then He feeds me the Food of Union with Him, the Eucharist.

Then I can begin again, free from my past in a far, far more sure way than I ever could as a Protestant, separated from the Sacraments. Don’t you ever have those nagging questions in the back of your mind? The Church, the Household of God, the Body of Christ, has the answer to them; It is the answer to them.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I’m not fearful because I live close to the Lord…He supplies peace that passes understanding and promises us peace when we keep our mind in Christ…

then you are truely blessed as you are more confident than St Paul was.

 

[Stepson]

oneGodoneChurch and Tiberius1701 thank you for your posts.

 

[Hiskid1973]

.

Then I can begin again, free from my past in a far, far more sure way than I ever could as a Protestant, separated from the Sacraments. Don’t you ever have those nagging questions in the back of your mind? The Church, the Household of God, the Body of Christ, has the answer to them; It is the answer to them.

I had a powerful conversion experience in 73 and a Holy Spirit filling that really set my faith on fire…gave me boldness to pass out hundreds of gospel tracts and share my faith…I still even disabled fro a work accident share my faith with those around me…I have two friends messed up on drugs had their life’s radically transformed still living for the Lord… One is a bold street witness, I did evangelism(prayer support) with him in NYC he really could minister to tough characters…He is able to keep us…