Why not?

[Hiskid1973]

then you are truely blessed as you are more confident than St Paul was.

I wouldn’t say that…He struggled with wanting to be with the Lord vrs spreading the gospel…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

oneGodoneChurch and Tiberius1701 thank you for your posts.

Thank you brother for your post.
My reasons for starting this was to see what would keep someone that had with open mind and prayerful search looked at the Catholic church and not come into it.

the 2 things I see as the biggest are Family and papal authority.

The first I truely understand as a major obstical the second I think is more missunderstanding as I would say a good portion of catholics do not understand it correctly

God Bless

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I wouldn’t say that…He struggled with wanting to be with the Lord vrs spreading the gospel…

And with the sins of his life and working out that salvation from the Lord in fear and trembling.

 

[Tiberius1701]

oneGodoneChurch and Tiberius1701 thank you for your posts.

You’re very welcome, Stepson. I’m very thankful for your posts as well. It’s good to see the honesty and curiosity with which you approach the Faith.

 

[Tiberius1701]

The CC says that ABC is always a mortal sin. I envisioned a couple in their 40s who already had 7 children. Not to mention being strapped financially and emotionally, the wife has a serious health condition that would render further childbearing extremely dangerous. I cannot believe that God would condemn such a couple to Hell if they decided to use a condom to avoid conception.

I think it’s important to look at why the Church says ABC is grave matter. It’s because of the simple, ancient moral precept: it is never licit to do evil that good may come of it. God would not be condemning them to Hell for trying to keep the woman alive. He would be accepting their choice to trust a tube of rubber rather than trusting Him to keep that woman alive. Don’t you think that God cares for the health and safety of each and every woman 15 trillion times more than does an inanimate piece of plastic, or a hormonal pill, or… whatever? There’s a very simple way for them to avoid placing the woman in danger: they can abstain. Yes, it’s a difficult cross to bear, but Jesus never said the Christian life wouldn’t be difficult. With the grace of God, even this can be born righteously. God is not condemning anyone for wanting a good end - to keep a child of God alive - but for choosing an evil means to get there. Again, it is never licit to do evil that good may come of it. This the exact same reason that we’re told that it is wrong to kill an unborn child so that we might have a stress-free future. The lessening of stress is a good end… but murder is not a good or moral way to get there. Same logic, different application. Does that make sense?

 

[anp1215]

Hi there and thank you for answering. I do not no that I would have any thing that may give you reason to reconsider. the one thing I have come to believe is that I do not have answers to concern that you hace raised. I will say that there are alternatives to condems which do not place a person in mortal sin NFP. that are shown to be even more effective.

In cases of working it not a sin if you miss Mass, this may fall into that area, However the key word is not that he could not but that he does not want to.

If you have recieved the truth and then reject it?

Douay-Rheims Bible- Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

kinda reads as if we should live our lives constantly worrying about the state of our souls.

Hi. You’re welcome; I’m glad to answer your question.
The effectiveness of NFP is a topic for another thread…yes I know with conservative and extremely accurate usage it is highly effective, but it can be difficult to follow the signs with precision. Especially for said couple in their late 40s with seven children.

I know missing Mass due to having to work during the Mass times is justified reason to miss Mass, but he wouldn’t be at work at during the early Mass. He would be sleeping due to coming home so late the night before.

I think different churches and denominations have varying degrees of truth. While I agree with the CC on some things, I disagree with them on others (as I previously stated). Same with the Methodist church, Anglican, etc. I don’t think the CC has a monopoly on truth; therefore I don’t think attending another church/denomination would be “rejecting the truth.”

Thanks for your kind reply.

 

[anp1215]

I wholly understand, the more I spend at this form to learn the more I think of the word “legalistic”. I can’t count the times I’ve read “is this venial”, is this mortal.I have been walking with Christ for almost 40 years and the conviction of the Holy Spirit has proven well over the years in keeping me close to the Lord…Sin is sin and any sin can do damage some more quickly…I always liken sin to standing on a sheet of ice, walking close to the Lord keeps it frozen and safe…Little lies like cheating on our taxes or being unkind puts little cracks but walking in repentance from the Holy Spirit’'s conviction freezes it back…Say getting drunk, constant lying or cohabitating(sex outside marriage) is like dropping large rocks around you, sorta blowing it off puts us in the position of getting a hard wake up call to repent and get close to the Lord…God just doesn’t let us wonder away very easy…To be honest in over almost 40 years i have never met someone who had and abiding faith in Christ just trash it and walk away. I do know a few who had major wake up calls and get back on track…Everything we do is forgivable barring blasphemy of the Holy Spirit…I have encouraged many in the past who thought they committed that very sin…I asked if it’s bothering them and they say yes…I remind them someone who would commit that would care less that there doing it…As for the missing Mass I always wondered about that also…I know many people who look forward to gathering together and want to be there… I missed church many times over the summer camping and had some good family time church in the outdoors…I haven’t been to church for almost 9 months due to complications from work fall and I miss gathering corporately…I just a lot of “controls” to keep the flock in line…
Grace and peace to you…

Grace and peace to you as well.

 

[DrPiano]

I agree with Jon nearly line by line except for primacy of the Pope. Someone explained this to me very well and it no longer bothers me (thank you for to that poster.) I went to Saturday Mass and it was very similar to what I’m used to, so no shocker there. What I particularly agree with Jon is that after countless generations, Lutheranism has crossed over and is now also a part of my ethnicity. To me, when I hear the Lutheran hymns, memories come flooding back to me. I remember barely being able a pew and seeing my great grandfather winking at me. Or the family trips to Minnisota to eat lutefisk in the church hall while the old men hid out back to smoke and speak Norwegian. This may sound shallow but it is somewhat of a barrier.

I can totally sympathize with this. I dragged my feet into finally saying “ok I’m ready” for over a year - believing that what the CC taught was absolutely true, but being unable to make the jump into the river- precisely because of the family thing. For me, it was both my personal family (its been a strain on my relationship with my parents, although with time that’s easing and we’ve been able to open a dialog about our now-differing beliefs… and how not as different they are…) and the prospect of leaving the church family that had raised me. I went to a church I disagreed with liturgically and doctrinally faithfully for well over a year because I couldn’t bring myself to leave the people. It was hard

And a good ole Wesleyan hymn always brings things back for me. I love it when one slips in at our church!

The second problem, which may be little shallow, is that I find the OF Mass really hard to take, and even theologically suspect, and I have a hard time with a lot of Catholic music. Mind you, this has been a problem in my own tradition as well, but at least I can find a beautiful, sound, English language liturgy.

I’m afraid I’m not familiar with “OF Mass”… are you referring to the NO mass (the current ordinary usage mass)?

I agree… a lot of Catholic music is terrible! Thankfully we are blessed with an increasing number of talented musicians who are creating good music and some churches are borrowing theologically sound hymns from other traditions as well (we sing a few Lutheran and Wesleyan hymns at my church). I wish I could bring you to our parish! I think you’d see that Catholic music can be amazingly beautiful! (Check out Songs in His Presence. Almost all of them go to my parish!). And I bet you’d even like our NO liturgy. Its amazing to be in a packed parish where most of the people truly believe and feel what they’re saying… and we make it beautiful.

Do you find the new translation more beautiful than the old? Some people do.

And then there are a few popular practices in Catholicism that make me uncomfortable, and I have some questions about it. All the stuff around private revelation for example, or some types of prayer that are encouraged.

I can totally relate. I still find some private devotions off-putting. But I take comfort in the fact that private devotions aren’t required And I’m not in a position to sit in judgement over the heart of Johnny who has a particular devotion to Our Lady of … or Bridget who likes to pray the Memorare. I honor and treasure Mary, affirming all that the Church teaches about her, and I ask for her intercession and I honor her the way I would my own mother. I even participated (however mildly uncomfortably) in a May Crowning of Mary just recently - and realized it wasn’t as “bad” as I thought it would be (quite Christological in fact). I’ve come to realize that I have to separate Church Teaching from private practice. I can affirm the one while still saying “I’m uncomfortable with that” regarding some of the other

For those who have issues with Papal Primacy, have you ever picked up the book Upon this Rock by Steve Ray. It’s a GREAT book (but start with the Appendix on the OT… he says he should have put that first) and I think it makes a great case for Petrine (and Papal) Primacy. It’s super scholarly, and the author takes great pains to quote at length from Scripture, ECFs, Orthodox scholars, Catholic scholars, and Protestant scholars. I really highly recommend it.

 

[Curious_Seed]

Althought, I can see the point of view of Orthodox and others reguarding Trasubtantiation, It appears that Christ was clear in that it was no longer Bread, but was his body. Expectically if looked at with John 6:32-33 and 54



Don’t think John is stating that bread was no longer bread, but now Bread or His body.

I think Jesus is explaining that He is the Bread of Life, not that bread becomes Bread.

I think Jesus is saying that bread is to be used to remember that reality.

Still, the Catholic perspective is with merit.

Use of the terms bread, Bread of Life, remember Me, and so on, introduces ambiguity because the terms are not ironclad defined.



I

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

oneGODoneCHURCH;7930291:

Althought, I can see the point of view of Orthodox and others reguarding Trasubtantiation, It appears that Christ was clear in that it was no longer Bread, but was his body. Expectically if looked at with John 6:32-33 and 54



D

on’t think John is stating that bread was no longer bread, but now Bread or His body.

I think Jesus is explaining that He is the Bread of Life, not that bread becomes Bread.

I think Jesus is saying that bread is to be used to remember that reality.

Still, the Catholic perspective is with merit.

Use of the terms bread, Bread of Life, remember Me, and so on, introduces ambiguity because the terms are not ironclad defined.



I

I guess that why I trust the Church in those matters, because I can look at those words through my eyes and see it with ambiguity, But when placed within the Scope of Tradition and Church teaching it is clear, or at least less ambiguitous.

Like I said I can see the Eastern view in rejecting transubstansation, But even then they will tell you it is the Body and Blood they just dont know how it is.

Peace Brother.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hi. You’re welcome; I’m glad to answer your question.
The effectiveness of NFP is a topic for another thread…yes I know with conservative and extremely accurate usage it is highly effective, but it can be difficult to follow the signs with precision. Especially for said couple in their late 40s with seven children.

I know missing Mass due to having to work during the Mass times is justified reason to miss Mass, but he wouldn’t be at work at during the early Mass. He would be sleeping due to coming home so late the night before.

I think different churches and denominations have varying degrees of truth. While I agree with the CC on some things, I disagree with them on others (as I previously stated). Same with the Methodist church, Anglican, etc. I don’t think the CC has a monopoly on truth; therefore I don’t think attending another church/denomination would be “rejecting the truth.”

Thanks for your kind reply.

God bless

 

[DrPiano]

Curious Seed;7936238:

I guess that why I trust the Church in those matters, because I can look at those words through my eyes and see it with ambiguity, But when placed within the Scope of Tradition and Church teaching it is clear, or at least less ambiguitous.

Like I said I can see the Eastern view in rejecting transubstansation, But even then they will tell you it is the Body and Blood they just dont know how it is.

Peace Brother.

The Eastern view doesn’t really contradict the Western view, they just take different approaches. I tend to like the metaphysical explanation (just because it actually makes sense to me - once I heard it explained well) but some people just don’t like thinking that way. And it seems to me that the Catholic Church doesn’t really reject this hands-off approach the way it rejects a different “metaphysical” explanation of what happens that lessens the reality of what really happens. At least that’s how I understand it. What really matters is that it’s really the Body and Blood of Christ - as both the Bible and the ECFs affirm. And that, as such, Jesus, under the guise of bread and wine, deserves our reverence, respect, adoration, love, and thanksgiving for his amazing gift of self in the Sacrament.

Curious Seed - I challenge you to really dive into the greek behind “remembrance” in the institution narratives - and the Jewish understanding of the Passover. A thorough study of “anamnesis” might just open your eyes, at least to the meaning of that word It certainly opened mine! (And that was 4 years before I started down the final road to the church! And 2 years before I accepted Transubstantiation). (If you’re interested, I’m willing to share some of the things I’ve learned).

 

[anp1215]

God bless

God bless you as well. I love the charitableness of this thread. Isn’t it nice when people of different faiths can have a civilized discussion? Unfortunately it doesn’t happen often, it seems.

 

[Tiberius1701]

JonNC and Stepson, something DrPiano said reminded me of something I meant to ask a few days ago. Jon explained that Lutheran practice is to consume everything that is consecrated (except that which is reserved for shut-ins, of course) because the early Lutherans were uncomfortable with the Catholic practice of Eucharistic Adoration and Eucharistic processions. While I understand that this is because Jesus does not command us to do anything with His Body and Blood in the Sacrament but to consume it, I must ask, why the distinction between how we treat Him in the Sacrament and how we treat Him elsewhere? If you truly believe that the Lord’s Supper is Christ, however you want to understand that, why not worship and adore Him there?

If He who is God Almighty, True God from True God, Alpha and Omega, Only Begotten Son of the Father, is Himself truly present in the Most Blessed Sacrament, why object to worshipping Him there? There is plenty mention in the NT of people worshipping Christ bodily, so if it is really Him, why object to worshipping Him? As DrPiano said elsewhere, Luther tended to say that, if it a practice is not forbidden in the Bible, then it’s permissible, didn’t he? Surely adoring God the Son is nowhere forbidden by Scripture…

As usual, I’m just trying to understand this from your perspective.

 

[Stepson]

God bless you as well. I love the charitableness of this thread. Isn’t it nice when people of different faiths can have a civilized discussion? Unfortunately it doesn’t happen often, it seems.

I’m with you. This forum has been a God send!

 

[Hiskid1973]

If He who is God Almighty, True God from True God, Alpha and Omega, Only Begotten Son of the Father, is Himself truly present in the Most Blessed Sacrament, why object to worshipping Him there? There is plenty mention in the NT of people worshipping Christ bodily, so if it is really Him, why object to worshipping Him? As DrPiano said elsewhere, Luther tended to say that, if it a practice is not forbidden in the Bible, then it’s permissible, didn’t he? Surely adoring God the Son is nowhere forbidden by Scripture…

As usual, I’m just trying to understand this from your perspective.

I know this was directed at others but I just want to comment…We all accept what we decide to follow by faith…I never understood why things have to be explained…We follow a something we take by faith for me God is somehow over, around. in and under the elements it;'s a spiritual act we take by faith…To me the most important thing at the time is that my heart is pure before the Lord, no ought’s between another or conviction of unrepentant sin.
When I worship corporately by faith I accept He is there just as much as you believe that
piece of bread is His whole divinity…He rewards those who diligently seek Him as He knows the passion attitude of your heart…There is so much that remains a mystery in the scriptures and I’m content with that…But then I also believe His church is way beyond the Rome see and those it includes…I seen and experienced too much to believe that God’s fullest only is available in Rome…I could write a small book on the experiences of incredible answered prayer and experiences…Grace and peace to you. all…

 

[Stepson]

JonNC and Stepson, something DrPiano said reminded me of something I meant to ask a few days ago. Jon explained that Lutheran practice is to consume everything that is consecrated (except that which is reserved for shut-ins, of course) because the early Lutherans were uncomfortable with the Catholic practice of Eucharistic Adoration and Eucharistic processions. While I understand that this is because Jesus does not command us to do anything with His Body and Blood in the Sacrament but to consume it, I must ask, why the distinction between how we treat Him in the Sacrament and how we treat Him elsewhere? If you truly believe that the Lord’s Supper is Christ, however you want to understand that, why not worship and adore Him there?

If He who is God Almighty, True God from True God, Alpha and Omega, Only Begotten Son of the Father, is Himself truly present in the Most Blessed Sacrament, why object to worshipping Him there? There is plenty mention in the NT of people worshipping Christ bodily, so if it is really Him, why object to worshipping Him? As DrPiano said elsewhere, Luther tended to say that, if it a practice is not forbidden in the Bible, then it’s permissible, didn’t he? Surely adoring God the Son is nowhere forbidden by Scripture…

As usual, I’m just trying to understand this from your perspective.

Friend Tiberius,

I must admit, if you want a more in dept answer, I must defer to a much more learned Lutheran like JonNC. I will try to give you my layperson understanding. I was taught and believe that the bread and wine ARE His body. When He comes and when He goes is a mystery. So when communion is over, consuming the remaining is out of dignity and respect.

As for the second part of your question in which you asked why not worship Him there, I am not familiar on the details on how Catholics take part in the Eucharist so I can’t elaborate on it. Help me to understand the difference between the two. When I went to Saturday Mass, yes I went and I too was surprised when a Lutheran like myself didn’t burst into flames at the door, I witnessed communion. It didn’t seem different to a Lutheran communion. So I am lost there.

But in reading your quote on Luther, if it helps, my personal belief is that if it is not forbidden in the Bible and the tradition dates back to early Church, I accept it. This is based on my degree in sociology. I learned studying sociology, that studies have shown oral tradition in different societies are usually very accurate. I see the tradition of the Church as a type of oral traditions. So if oral traditions in other cultures are shown to be accurate, why isn’t ancient traditions of Christ’s Church accurate? I believe they are. Hope this helps.

Dan

 

[Tiberius1701]

I know this was directed at others but I just want to comment…We all accept what we decide to follow by faith…I never understood why things have to be explained…We follow a something we take by faith for me God is somehow over, around. in and under the elements it;'s a spiritual act we take by faith…To me the most important thing at the time is that my heart is pure before the Lord, no ought’s between another or conviction of unrepentant sin.
When I worship corporately by faith I accept He is there just as much as you believe that
piece of bread is His whole divinity…He rewards those who diligently seek Him as He knows the passion attitude of your heart…There is so much that remains a mystery in the scriptures and I’m content with that…But then I also believe His church is way beyond the Rome see and those it includes…I seen and experienced too much to believe that God’s fullest only is available in Rome…I could write a small book on the experiences of incredible answered prayer and experiences…Grace and peace to you. all…

Grace and peace to you as well.

God’s grace and mercy, and His living and active Spirit, are all, most certainly, present beyond the visible confines of the Catholic Church just as truly as they are present within. But we seek to inquire, and to come to better understanding of one another, because we are both relational and rational creatures. Without reason and without a sharing of thoughts and ideas, we could never grow closer to one another, and we could never respect each other as fully as God wants us to. We could respect one another in theory, but - just as I, as a teen, fully believed that I was in love with a girl whom I didn’t really know and with whom I barely ever talked - if we never come together as Brothers and Sisters in Christ, to talk about what we believe, why we believe it, and what things we share in both belief and explanation, then we’ll never truly know whether we’re just respecting the phantom of the other person that our minds have created for us, or if we’re truly respecting who that person really is.

 

[Curious_Seed]

Curious Seed;7936238:

I guess that why I trust the Church in those matters, because I can look at those words through my eyes and see it with ambiguity, But when placed within the Scope of Tradition and Church teaching it is clear, or at least less ambiguitous.

Like I said I can see the Eastern view in rejecting transubstansation, But even then they will tell you it is the Body and Blood they just dont know how it is.

Peace Brother.

Well, we do agree that Christ is our Lord and our Savior and our God.

With that agreement, what else is more important?

I am not Orthodox, by the way

.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

God bless you as well. I love the charitableness of this thread. Isn’t it nice when people of different faiths can have a civilized discussion? Unfortunately it doesn’t happen often, it seems.

Yes. It can be difficult as the are things we could say if facce to face that would not be taken in a hurtful way. but when typed out in this formate can be offenive. I work hard at not being offencive. Sometimes with more success than others.