Why "nothing" cannot exist?

[IWantGod]

Let me ask you this question. Does laws of nature changes? That says you something about the nature of universe.

Well, the regularities that we find in physical processes has no bearing on the logical implications of a changing universe.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

But you need an argument to show that “nothing” as a concept cannot be actual.

Let’s see. Joe enters the universal store, where everything is available for the customer. The conversation:

Joe: I would like to acquire a pound of nothing.
Salesman: Certainly sir. We do not store it here, but I can tell you where you can find it.
Joe: Thank you. Where do I find it?
Salesman: Right in the middle of nowhere.
Joe: Nice. When is it available there?
Salesman: Never, obviously.
Joe: Thank you. <goes to the door, and tries to open it. The door is locked>.
Joe: Hey! Why is the door locked?
Salesman: Because you forgot to pay me.
Joe: Pay for what?
Salesman: For my wasted time on your ridiculous questions.
Joe: How could I pay you?
Salesman: By giving me exactly no dollars.
Joe: .
Salesman: No sir, I need exactly no dollar.
Joe: But I only have one dollar.
Salesman: That is your problem. The door will stay locked until you pay me.
Joe: .

 

[IWantGod]

Let’s see. Joe enters the universal store, where everything is available for the customer. The conversation:

Joe: I would like to acquire a pound of nothing.
Salesman: Certainly sir. We do not store it here, but I can tell you where you can find it.
Joe: Thank you. Where do I find it?
Salesman: Right in the middle of nowhere.
Joe: Nice. When is it available there?
Salesman: Never, obviously.
Joe: Thank you. <goes to the door, and tries to open it. The door is locked>.
Joe: Hey! Why is the door locked?
Salesman: Because you forgot to pay me.
Joe: Pay for what?
Salesman: For my wasted time on your ridiculous questions.
Joe: How could I pay you?
Salesman: By giving me exactly no dollars.
Joe: .
Salesman: No sir, I need exactly no dollar.
Joe: But I only have one dollar.
Salesman: That is your problem. The door will stay locked until you pay me.
Joe: .

 

[davidv]

David, I am afraid you are mistaken. Quantum physics proves that something can come into existence from nothing ie without a cause, just extremely rarely. I suggest a Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking. Cheers.

I think you have been misled. Quantum physics does not prove anything. It may be descriptive of some things. It certainly does not prove that things happen without a cause.

 

[IWantGod]

Do you have an argument which prove that “nothing” cannot exist?

There are 2 reasons to think that absolutely nothing cannot exist as a true state

1. Nothingness is meaningless accept to serve as a distinction between possible beings and actual beings…Its a comparative concept.

For example “there is nothing in the room” simply means that all the possible things that could actually be in the room are not there. It does not follow that there is a state of nothingness in the room.

Nothing is not a state or thing in and of itself and is meaningless accept in reference to actual beings.

2. Also, absolutely nothing means the absence of logical possibilities since out of nothing comes nothing. This means that logically possible states are an expression of actual reality. Actual Reality has to exist first before we can speak of possible states.

We can’t meaningfully say that a thing is possible or potentially real without presupposing the existence of a something that necessarily exists.

 

[Sparkythedog]

To show whether that the state of nothingness could exist. By that I mean if nothing could exist at all.

Could you conceive that nothing could exist at all? No God, No universe.

Nothingness isn’t a state. It’s by definition, the lack of any state.

I can easily imagine things outside of myself not existing. I have a hard time imagining myself not existing.

 

[STT]

Are you a Platonist, then?

I believe that laws of nature are fixed whether it is laws of physics or it is some underlying laws.

Certainly the states of the beings within the universe change, either being here or there, being joing in this molecule or that molecule, breaking down, fusing together, and what not. And certainly the collective ordering as a whole is subject to change.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[STT]

Let’s see. Joe enters the universal store, where everything is available for the customer. The conversation:

Joe: I would like to acquire a pound of nothing.
Salesman: Certainly sir. We do not store it here, but I can tell you where you can find it.
Joe: Thank you. Where do I find it?
Salesman: Right in the middle of nowhere.
Joe: Nice. When is it available there?
Salesman: Never, obviously.
Joe: Thank you. <goes to the door, and tries to open it. The door is locked>.
Joe: Hey! Why is the door locked?
Salesman: Because you forgot to pay me.
Joe: Pay for what?
Salesman: For my wasted time on your ridiculous questions.
Joe: How could I pay you?
Salesman: By giving me exactly no dollars.
Joe: .
Salesman: No sir, I need exactly no dollar.
Joe: But I only have one dollar.
Salesman: That is your problem. The door will stay locked until you pay me.
Joe: .

Can you conceive nothingness (no God, no universe)?

 

[STT]

It is not. If “nothing cannot exist”, the only necessary being that must exist is that which we call God. Anything else is dependent on God as its cause, even if it has existed for infinite time. The fact that the universe cannot “create” is precisely part of why it cannot be the necessary being that is the first cause, unmoved mover, etc…

You still didn’t answer my question that why a necessary being must necessary have the ability to create.

Again, I think this stems from you imagining our model as proposing a temporal change from God only to God + everything else (including time), as if there was some type of before.

That is the serial way of thinking. Needless to say that these two points must exist if God is supposed to decide about the act of creation. This requires that God to be in state of potentiality which oppose to general belief that God is pure actuality. Do you believe that God is unconscious being who is not able to make conscious decision? This we have already discuss it elsewhere.

 

[STT]

There are 2 reasons to think that absolutely nothing cannot exist as a true state

Great, then we reach to the conclusion that the existence in general is fundamental.

1. Nothingness is meaningless accept to serve as a distinction between possible beings and actual beings…Its a comparative concept.

For example “there is nothing in the room” simply means that all the possible things that could actually be in the room are not there. It does not follow that there is a state of nothingness in the room.

Nothing is not a state or thing in and of itself and is meaningless accept in reference to actual beings.

No, nothingness is an absolute concept.

2. Also, absolutely nothing means the absence of logical possibilities since out of nothing comes nothing. This means that logically possible states are an expression of actual reality. Actual Reality has to exist first before we can speak of possible states.

We can’t meaningfully say that a thing is possible or potentially real without presupposing the existence of a something that necessarily exists.

Well, we want to prove that “nothing” cannot exist. That is not a proof.

 

[STT]

Nothingness isn’t a state. It’s by definition, the lack of any state.

I define “nothing” as a state when there is nothing.

I can easily imagine things outside of myself not existing. I have a hard time imagining myself not existing.

I can easily imagine myself not existing. If just my parents haven’t met.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Can you conceive nothingness (no God, no universe)?

As a concept, of course. As an ontological entity, no. I can ever conceive a “square circle”. It is a circle drawn on a rubber sheet, and the sheet is stretched until the circle becomes a square. Topology is very interesting branch of math.

 

[BobCatholic]

Do you have free will? If yes then you are uncaused-cause. If not you are a machine so you don’t need to feel pathetic.

I am imperfect, and thus my free will is negatively affected. To me, free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

So, do I have free will? I can’t answer that question.

 

[STT]

As a concept, of course.

Great.

As an ontological entity, no.

Why not? Do you have an argument to support your statement.

 

[STT]

I am imperfect, and thus my free will is negatively affected.

I don’t think that there is any relation between free will and imperfection. Do you have an argument for that?

To me, free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

I don’t understand the point of free will either. It just allows you to do bad. As a rational being you can always do right without free will.

So, do I have free will? I can’t answer that question.

We can of course make conscious decision. We are very aware of it.

 

[IWantGod]

Great, then we reach to the conclusion that the existence in general is fundamental.

We reach the conclusion that existence is necessary and we also identify what is necessary when we conclude that an absolute non-physical being exists.

No, nothingness is an absolute concept.

I don’t think you really comprehend at all.

 

[Sparkythedog]

I can easily imagine myself not existing. If just my parents haven’t met.

If you’re imagining yourself not existing, you’re doing it wrong. There is no imagining when you don’t exist.

 

[STT]

We reach the conclusion that existence is necessary and we also identify what is necessary when we conclude that an absolute non-physical being exists.

You need to prove that “nothing” cannot exist first.

 

[BobCatholic]

I don’t think that there is any relation between free will and imperfection. Do you have an argument for that?

A computer programmer writes a program that is buggy. The program crashes. Did it have a choice?

In the same way, if someone is created with imperfections, their free will is reduced or eliminated.

A man born with a disease that causes his legs to be amputated later, has no choice when it comes to running a marathon.

A blind man has no choice when it comes to driving a car.

A politician has no choice but to lie. Oh wait…

 

[davidv]

A computer programmer writes a program that is buggy. The program crashes. Did it have a choice?

In the same way, if someone is created with imperfections, their free will is reduced or eliminated.

A man born with a disease that causes his legs to be amputated later, has no choice when it comes to running a marathon.

A blind man has no choice when it comes to driving a car.

A politician has no choice but to lie. Oh wait…

None the imperfections listed prevent the bearer from from choosing good instead of evil.