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dmelosi
Guest
Not sure if this has been asked of you or not in this thread. What do you base your belief in God on? Has to come from somewhere.
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Parrot
Guest
Well you may find it heresy, but the truth is that God helps me on nearly a daily basis.
About ten years ago, I almost died. I found myself in full awareness that I would not live another day and that the next thing that was going to happen was that I would have a knowledge not known to any living person. In essence, I was about find out once and for all if there is life after death; if there is a Heaven or Hell; and basically about to meet God face to face for judgment if it was all true.
This was no uncertainty as the death was to be by my own hand. I never planned to live through to the next morning. So… I contemplated these thoughts and prepared myself to meet my maker in no uncertain terms. I won’t give you the grizzly details of the attempt to take my life but at one point I hesitated and decided to rest a bit and proceed after a few minutes. After all, I had all night to complete the task and what would it matter if I lived a few minutes more?
I laid down and awoke the next morning. I wondered whether I was really still alive or whether it was a sort of a purgatory and the sequence after death is for one to only gradually realize they have died? One very strange thing happened shortly after that day. Someone told me they trusted God to help them through anything and I figured why not? What’s to loose? I may be dead anyway.
I tried it - originally half believing anything would come of it and to my surprise, for the first time in my life, God responded. I would ask for help and help would arrive. I could even ask for help solving some inconsequential thing involving how to build a piece of furniture. In my frustration, I would lay my tools down and just say in my mind, “God help me. How do I do this?” Within seconds, a new idea would form in my mind and I would pick up the tools and suddenly I was doing something completely different and the result would be success. Things that I knew I had no knowledge nor ability to do, I was suddenly doing. God even taught me how to play the piano. I would sit at the keyboard a start playing something I had no idea whether I was making it up or had heard it somewhere before - the point was I was now playing the tune.
Big things, little things, you name it. It was the classic case of “Ask and you shall receive.” If I askd for something that didn’t happen immediately, I learned that it must be something God didn’t want me to have. A few days later, though, something even better would come. I know it may sound ridiculous but it was almost like magic.
Even if I fight with all my might now, God still points me in the correct direction as long as I keep asking for guidance. Someone once said, “Let go, let God.” and that is excellent advice.
I have nearly died many times and there were plenty of times that the slightest thing could have been different and I would not be here typing on the planet Earth. There has to be some reason God is keeping me alive and the last guidance I have been given is to investigate the Catholic faith. I am compelled to do that because I have never been led astray by God.
Many things I have witnessed and been taught by Baptist teachings and other religions have tainted my brain to the point even the name “Jesus” evokes bad memories, so this journey I am presently on is not easy - trust me on that.
I am frightened to death at this point in my life but a recent trip to a Catholic Church found me inside the building and not immediately struck down by lightening. I have a long journey ahead of me and some of you helped - particularly the person who suggested I just throw off the baggage and approach without it without the bad things I may have been taught. I forget **who **or how you had put it, but it was more help to me than anything written in this thread. God Bless you.
And this post is no lie. This is truth and truely how I feel.
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The_Truthinator
Guest
Amazing! I mean the whole realization of how thin a line there is between life and death, or rather, between “life” and true Life, or “death” and true Death.
Remember: God is love. Since this is the case, how can he condemn someone to suffer eternally? The way I see it is, we exist in duality: In the physical and metaphysical realms, simultaneously. Death is the transferral of the whole sum of one’s existence into that metaphysical realm.
Here’s kind of what I think of it as:
A guy (God) asks a girl (us) to the prom. He’s madly in love with her and has just dropped the question. She smiles and laughs softly and for a moment thinks it over. She is flattered, excited even, but decides to turn him down. Heart-broken, he politely responds, “Alright … Thanks anyway. Hey! If you change your mind, I’m always here.” She smiles again, thankful he is a gentleman, and walks away.
Now we understand God as the guy in this story, a gentleman who’d never force his “crush” (us) to go with him to the prom, no matter how strong his affection for her is … Why? He’s a gentleman. Hell is God not forcing us to spend eternity with him, but also a warning, saying, “You’ll be better off if you come with me, but I won’t make you,” and also, the fullness of Divine justice. God disciplines those who disobey, like a parent, and also much like his judgmental, but always fair, character would dictate. He does it because it’s good for them, not necessarily because he enjoys it.
Hell doesn’t make God any less of a Good Guy (the only good guy) … It just means when he says, “I know what’s best for you, and I’m it,” he’s really trying to get something important across, and all those messages of damnation are just a continuation of this …
Remember: God is love. Since this is the case, how can he condemn someone to suffer eternally? The way I see it is, we exist in duality: In the physical and metaphysical realms, simultaneously. Death is the transferral of the whole sum of one’s existence into that metaphysical realm.
Here’s kind of what I think of it as:
A guy (God) asks a girl (us) to the prom. He’s madly in love with her and has just dropped the question. She smiles and laughs softly and for a moment thinks it over. She is flattered, excited even, but decides to turn him down. Heart-broken, he politely responds, “Alright … Thanks anyway. Hey! If you change your mind, I’m always here.” She smiles again, thankful he is a gentleman, and walks away.
Now we understand God as the guy in this story, a gentleman who’d never force his “crush” (us) to go with him to the prom, no matter how strong his affection for her is … Why? He’s a gentleman. Hell is God not forcing us to spend eternity with him, but also a warning, saying, “You’ll be better off if you come with me, but I won’t make you,” and also, the fullness of Divine justice. God disciplines those who disobey, like a parent, and also much like his judgmental, but always fair, character would dictate. He does it because it’s good for them, not necessarily because he enjoys it.
Hell doesn’t make God any less of a Good Guy (the only good guy) … It just means when he says, “I know what’s best for you, and I’m it,” he’s really trying to get something important across, and all those messages of damnation are just a continuation of this …
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kellie
Guest
Hey that must be me
I never presumed to say what your intent was, or remark on what you meant.
I had explained stuff to you earlier in this thread, and you rephrased it, giving it a new meaning, so I told you not to twist my words.
You tell me not to presume your intent, and then go on to presume you know how I handle people like you, and that I will end up confused and not know that the conversation is about.
Wrong.
I am very glad you came to CA, as it gave me the chance to defend my faith, and say over and over again that Catholics DO NOT assume to know who is going to hell, and it also gave me the chance to say over and over again that Catholics believe Jesus IS God.
Thank you Parrot, God bless, and I hope you learn the Truth one day, and come Home
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Stolen_Rutters
Guest
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Parrot
Guest
Yep.Hey that must be me
I have seen this many times on the internet and in other conversations. It is an old trick to get attention, start fights and take the conversation away from the original topic. Here is how it works…
Person A says - What makes the sky blue?
Person B says - Person A has no idea what the sky is.
Person A says - But I do understand the sky and am only asking why it looks blue.
Person B says - Person A is stupid because he does not even understand that the sky is often many different colors.
Person A says - Will you answer the question and not say things that are untrue about me?
Person B says - I never said an untruth about you.
Person A says - Oh but you did. You called me stupid and said I had no idea what the sky was even composed of.
Person B says - Don’t twist my words. I never said anything like that.
The result is that the conversation turns into a battle and the question is not answered. Person B has just written to other people reading the conversation and seeks only attention for themselves. Person B is uncooperative in that sense, and in essence appears to be hiding the fact that they probably really have no idea why the sky appears blue to the eye during the day.
The intent was not to twist, but to show what I was thinking and to show you how what you say sounds to me.
Okay then I say that Catholics imply that those who are not Catholic will burn in Hell. It does not matter to me. Whether I joined the Catholic Church or not, those same souls would either be saved or not according to what God judged. My only concern there is whether I would just be joining another “Baptist-like” group who does not care about anyone but themselves. I disliked the Baptists because they taught one thing and acted a different way.
An example: As small children, we sang this song in the Baptist church school… “Red and yellow, black and white. They are precious in His sight.” Then you would discover as you grew up that the Black people had their own Baptist churches and were never seen nor allowed in the one I went to. I could go on and on but you catch the drift I am sure. I cannot stand people who profess to believe one thing and do another.
I do not care if it is even something I disagree with. I’d have more respect for a Nazi who shunned **all **Jews than a Nazi who professed to be a good Nazi but had a Jewish mistress on the side, you see?
Likewise, I have more respect for a forum poster who disagrees with me and poses their own counter viewpoint than one who states what they think my viewpoint is.
Addendum:
I forgot this additional example. You wrote…
That is what you do wrong. I am not someone for you to handle here. It is not your prerogative to handle the situation. You are free to converse, but there is no need to handle me in any way. I have seen this many times as well and it is the essence of a bad attitude toward a forum. It basically looks like your intent is to manage what I say or mean. Is that your intent?
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Parrot
Guest
I’ve invited the user “Kellie” in a private message to fight with me personally there so the rest of you don’t have to wade through those personal remarks.
Allow me to go off topic a bit and give you a riddle that I believe will help in this discussion…
This statement is a true one: I went to a Catholic school when I was young. I was in RCA and there was the usual - kids in uniforms; nuns teaching classes, etc.If I were raised in a Baptist church, how could this be?
The answer shows how things can seem twisted in a forum and meanings can be unclear. It is necessary to ask if something is unclear and to never assume you are at liberty to state that your opinion is what another actually means.
You may think that I have just misspelled RCIC but this is not so and is the key to the riddle. RCA is Radio Corporation of America. I worked for RCA and was attending training classes in New Jersey at the time. The company ran out of office space and we rented a room at the local Catholic High School. The statement is absolutely true, but the meaning is very unclear upon just a quick read. Sometimes even just a single word can make a difference. Add to that a bit of “What would the average Catholic say if I said I believed such and such…” and you get the point of this thread.
Try not to zone in on words that you think mean one thing when they may in fact not mean that and I will try to do the same.
Allow me to go off topic a bit and give you a riddle that I believe will help in this discussion…
This statement is a true one: I went to a Catholic school when I was young. I was in RCA and there was the usual - kids in uniforms; nuns teaching classes, etc.If I were raised in a Baptist church, how could this be?
The answer shows how things can seem twisted in a forum and meanings can be unclear. It is necessary to ask if something is unclear and to never assume you are at liberty to state that your opinion is what another actually means.
You may think that I have just misspelled RCIC but this is not so and is the key to the riddle. RCA is Radio Corporation of America. I worked for RCA and was attending training classes in New Jersey at the time. The company ran out of office space and we rented a room at the local Catholic High School. The statement is absolutely true, but the meaning is very unclear upon just a quick read. Sometimes even just a single word can make a difference. Add to that a bit of “What would the average Catholic say if I said I believed such and such…” and you get the point of this thread.
Try not to zone in on words that you think mean one thing when they may in fact not mean that and I will try to do the same.
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Grateful4mercy
Guest
Ooo, I want to play with this notion. Ok, are ALL Catholics in Heaven? Nope, there are NO assurances that if you join the church that you will receive salvation. “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. We are called to ‘work out [y]our own salvation with fear and trembling’. Doesn’t sound like once saved, always saved, does it? We are to repent our sins and try to constantly improve in the sight of the Lord. We depend on His mercy alone (catch the name?) for our salvation. We don’t get our ticket punched at our confirmation, unfortunately.
One the other hand, are ONLY Catholics in Heaven? Once again I have use the words of our Lord “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. That sort of leaves the door wide open, doesn’t it? I think you fit right in there. ‘he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’ what a WONDERFUL thought. Aren’t you trying to do that right now? You are fervently trying to do the will of God, even though it is a very difficult path. Simply having the desire to be a child of God is an incredible Grace upon your soul! What Father, when his son asks him for a fish, would give him a snake? God will reward us for trying to understand his will. How could he fault a noble Buddhist who is hoping to please Him, but is not sure how? I only hope that if I am wrong, and some other faith is right, that God will look on my attempts to please and love Him and know I was being honest and sincere, though my methods were flawed. Jesus didn’t JUST save his followers, right? He saved all who those sought him with love and faith.
Your path leads to God even if, for a time, it leads away from the Church.
PS. I know you don’t like Bible quotes, but you don’t have to believe in them for them to prove my point. The fact that we believe in them guides our acts, and as such they act as proof against your claim that we infer only Catholics get to heaven.
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Parrot
Guest
You are a brick, Grateful (British term that means you are brilliant).
I like what you have said there. You use the word “Lord.” Now don’t jump on that and let me tell you why. I like that word better than the word, “Jesus” and can we use that (for now at least) to help me understand the whole thing?This is a bit silly I know, but I once knew a horrible fellow named “Joe.” For years after, I could not hear the name nor meet a person named “Joe” without thinking bad things due to bad memories. The name “Jesus” has the same effect on my brain. I have just experienced such bad things associated with the name that it is difficult to combine the idea of God with the name “Jesus.” It is sort of like hearing “jesus h. christ!” in a curse more than one hears the name spoken in any reverent manner???
Now that is what I am talking about. Yes. That is my present path and the reason I have come to inquiry here.
I have a confession to make… Yesterday I bought a Catholic Bible. I am not as unreasonable a person as I have appeared here. Next week I shall purchase a copy of the Catechism. You, Grateful, and some others have softened my heart I believe. I am now willing to accept references to the Bible and to the Catechism in this discussion as long as I am not just sent away to read the entire two books and invited to come back to discuss them later like some school child, okay?
If you asked me how a transistor worked, I would not send you to a technical reference as it would take you a couple of years to fully understand the physics involved. I’d explain it in simple terms and analogies so you would have a fair idea how it works and you could then choose to investigate the matter further. That is all I am asking of you (plural) in this thread.
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Grateful4mercy
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more! Its the hazard of living where we do. So much BAD evangelizing has been done in His name that simply saying “Jesus” to somebody will send them running for the hills. It really helps to just stick to The Lord, or God. People are more willing to listen to you when you come in low and slow. It’s a real shame too, because some of the people they have turned off to God really needed somebody to help them. I pray that they didn’t give up and found somebody else that would lead them home.
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dranzal
Guest
Of course it can be interpreted in many ways. Of course each writer is writing from his own perspective. I do not believe that the Gospel writers deliberately tried to twist or embellish the events of Jesus’ life. It would not fit with human nature. What would have been their motive? They were Jews. If they were making stories up to unite Jews behind their made up Messiah, He would have been far more aggressive in the stories. The apostles would have been portrayed as much brighter and educated. The writers, of course, would have known that the stories were largely tall tales and would never have defended them to the death.
Instead, we have stories of a poor carpenter who started out with a handful of coarse fishermen as followers. The “leader” of this pack even denied any knowledge of the man he held in such high regard as to call “the Messiah, the Son of the Living God”. The story goes on to say that these apostles huddled around in a room hiding from the authorities until some woman (this would not have gone over well back then) arrived to tell them He was alive. If the writers were trying to convince us that they had the TRUTH and were trying to share it, they had a funny way of doing it. They convinced us that the so-called Messiah was not really committed to his cause and that his followers were weak-minded cowards.
Knowing the rest of the story makes the apparent absurdities all come together and make sense. The apostles all defended their beliefs to the death. People making stuff up don’t do that.
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anthony022071
Guest
The divinity of Jesus is proven in the existence of the saints and the lives they led. Prior to the coming of Jesus Christ,the great civilizations,religions,and philosophies had grave moral defects and blind spots, or were inadequate to deal with evil.The great civilizations of Mesopotamia,Egypt,Babylon,India,China,Greece and Rome all had an unrepentant,unredeemed streak of cruelty,heard-heartedness and moral blindness.Tyranny,oppression of the poor and weak,slavery,brutality,bloodthirstiness, vengefulness went largely unanswered,because there was a lack of men of moral conscience willing to live and die for truth. At best,there were decent,kind,law-abiding people who did what they could within human reason and human capacities. But it did not occur to philosophers,or religious leaders, or wise men that they should dedicate their lives, going out of their way, to helping those in need,to love and show mercy to strangers and the lowest in society, to forgive and keep faith even under persecution and torture.This kind of excess of righteousness was unknown among the pagans. This kind of behavior is not of human origin. It is wildly abnormal and beyond explanation in terms of the history of human ideas,ideologies,political or religious movements, and philosophies. Before Jesus Christ came, there was next to nobody like Saint Francis of Assisi, or Padre Pio, or Mother Theresa. Every generation for the past two thousand years has seen at least a handful of persons with a superhuman capacity for love,mercy,healing,forebearance,moral clarity,forgiveness,self-giving, and suffering.Saints do not do these things on their own authority or with their own human abilities,but on authority and commandment from Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ came to us, he set an example of perfection ,of what God is like.He set loose on Earth a Spirit,an excess of divine love,which is also divine power,that is still present in the world.The fact that their are many people who dedicate their lives to helping others in need,to moral perfection,to self-giving, points directly back to Jesus Christ,who spoke and acted on authority of the Father,from whence he came. The lives and works of the saints testify to the present reality of Jesus Christ and how he continues to work in the world.
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Parrot
Guest
Find speech but not that valid in this discussion I feel. Here is another idea taken from a more scientific resource regarding Saints and the idea of what is “pagan.”
“Christianity itself has been perceived at times as a form of paganism by followers of the other Abrahamic religions because of, for example, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, the celebration of pagan feast days, and other practices - through a process described as “baptising.” Even between Christians there have been similar charges of paganism leveled, especially by Protestants, towards the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches for their veneration of the saints and images.”
This goes back to the idea I stated about just because it is written somewhere and even by an authority, does not mean it is absolute truth. One problem I have with going too far into antiquity for reference is that you have to remember that some of those folks back then thought the Universe revolved around the Earth. Even in the days of Jesus, the Egyptians still thought the Sun was a chariot. And some of what they believed and wrote is still inscribed on the walls of pyramids.
I am not actually disagreeing with what you wrote, just saying that if we get too philosophical, it would be even more time consuming than if we argued the merits of the Catechism point by point.
I am not discounting any of it in bulk, but back in the times you speak of, it was a good thing to just collect people into one group and have them become civilized at all. The ideas of the ills of slavery, for example, did not get really dealt with until the last couple hundred years. I don’t think you can legitimately give Jesus the credit for that - leastwise not back then.
And just for the record (though some will hate me for it) I like the idea of Saints just as much as the stained glass.
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kellie
Guest
Just for the record, and for the moderators, I have declined Parrot’s invitation to a “fight” in private.
That is not what I am here for. I am here to debate, discuss, and defend my faith, and to learn how and what other’s believe.
I have read Parrot’s posts in this thread and read that he doesn’t think Jesus is God, and that some churches (buildings) are beautiful, and that are the types of buildings Parrot would like to worship in.
I like to think of myself as reasonably intelligent, and I don’t think I have misinterpreted anything Parrot has expressed.
Thanks all, let us get back to the art of discussion, and exchanging beliefs.
God bless you all.
That is not what I am here for. I am here to debate, discuss, and defend my faith, and to learn how and what other’s believe.
I have read Parrot’s posts in this thread and read that he doesn’t think Jesus is God, and that some churches (buildings) are beautiful, and that are the types of buildings Parrot would like to worship in.
I like to think of myself as reasonably intelligent, and I don’t think I have misinterpreted anything Parrot has expressed.
Thanks all, let us get back to the art of discussion, and exchanging beliefs.
God bless you all.
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The_Truthinator
Guest
The lack of knowledge these other Abrahamic religions possess regarding the Trinity is, no doubt, very deficient. When searching Christianity out and trying to expose its “flaws,” of course the first thing they tackle is the most mystical and mysterious part of the whole Faith; yet even so, many learned men have indeed expounded upon the Trinity and produced such great conclusions that it, at least to me, should hardly strike concern in the hearts of anyone.
I don’t celebrate Christmas, Easter, or any such nonsense. For one, never in Scripture do we see the Apostles celebrating a “Mass of Christ” or a “holy day” named after the pagan goddess Ishtar (from whence comes “Easter”). Rather, we see them living out the birth, ministry, death, and resurrection of Yeshua each and every day. Origen was appalled at the pagan revelry he witnessed at the first “Mass of Christ,” as am I to this day. I follow in the footsteps of the Apostles, who determined to make every waking moment a triumphant celebration in honor of God through his Messiah.
Finally, of course Protestants point at Catholicism and cry, “Pagans!” The church’s traditions regarding the saints and veneration … and oh-so many other things, can be very, very disturbing. Of course any time there is idolatry in any way, shape or form, it becomes pagan in nature: serving many “gods” in place of Yeshua-Yahweh, the One and Only.
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Parrot
Guest
:dts: I disagree.
This copied from the moderators’ guidelines…
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It isn’t right to say a person is only interested in some secular aspect of the Catholic faith. I believe in God and I think it is acceptable to Him that I wish to worship Him in a place that is as grand as I can find. That is not the only reason I have interest in the Catholic Church and it is totally unfair to make such a comment.
I have said many things in this thread and I have repeatedly said that not everything I have written is actually what I truly believe. I have admitted that I have posted beliefs that are not my true views in order to discover reactions and to test beliefs.
I will say this in total truth…
I am impressed by some Catholic church buildings but if that were the only reason, I could as easily find equal splendor in some Protestant church buildings. The last Protestant church I attended was grand indeed - plenty of stained glass and the pastor held a Doctorate in archeology.
Lastly, it isn’t ones’ prerogative to “interpret” another’s posts for the group and to actually state to the group what another poster believes. We all make mistakes, but the generally accepted method for resolving such personal disagreements is to take the private disagreements between individuals into the private message area. That is a common procedure throughout thousands of internet forums.
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FCEGM
Guest
I’m sure many think this is the implication (this comes up frequently in the Forum), but a closer look at the Church’s teaching by a serious inquirer will show that what one sees as implied is not the reality of the teaching. I hope your reading of the Catechism will more fully clarify this for you.
If someone is saved it is because of his connection to Christ in and through His Church. Some have this connection perfectly, some do not. But this doesn’t negate Christ’s mercy in reaching beyond the confines of a visible connection with the Church and her sacramental life.
Well, we all would like to see ourselves as not being hypocrites, but given our tendency to sin we have to humbly admit that this is something we (Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc., etc.,) will fall into. It is a heart established in Christ that can find peace with the hypocrisy of others and of oneself – and in Christ find His transformation toward authenticity.
In his book Theology and Sanity, the Catholic writer Frank Sheed addresses the truly catholic nature of Catholicism:
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Grateful4mercy
Guest
WOW!!! You were at the FIRST Mass of Christ?? You must be freeken OLD!!
Can you do us all a huge favor, tell us what you saw…PLEEEEASE? We are all just dying to hear your fantastical story of debauchery and paganism. I bet they even KNELT!
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anthony022071
Guest
It may be true that the antiquity or ‘authority’ of the Bible doesn’t argue for its being true for a critical,skeptical thinker. For that matter,the evidence for the historical figure of Jesus hardly exists
outside of the New Testament. And yet this historical non-entity,
who is said to have been put to death under Roman law,very historically ‘put to death’ pagan Rome by way of the disciples,converting Rome to him.There is a deep irony in that.
The truth of Jesus as the Son of God can be verified by the continuing and contemporary influence that he has on the saints
to be uncompromisingly good – to love others,to save,to heal,to be merciful,to forgive,to speak truth to power, even unto death.Now if we can agree that there is no higher ideal,no greater truth than this kind of love,and if we can admit that it is beyond humans to be like this on their own authority or abilities,then it must be of divine origin.The saints refer to Christ as their master,
whom they obey and who sustains them. And Jesus Christ spoke and acted on authority of his Father.So there is a chain of command,or rather commandment,here.
outside of the New Testament. And yet this historical non-entity,
who is said to have been put to death under Roman law,very historically ‘put to death’ pagan Rome by way of the disciples,converting Rome to him.There is a deep irony in that.
The truth of Jesus as the Son of God can be verified by the continuing and contemporary influence that he has on the saints
to be uncompromisingly good – to love others,to save,to heal,to be merciful,to forgive,to speak truth to power, even unto death.Now if we can agree that there is no higher ideal,no greater truth than this kind of love,and if we can admit that it is beyond humans to be like this on their own authority or abilities,then it must be of divine origin.The saints refer to Christ as their master,
whom they obey and who sustains them. And Jesus Christ spoke and acted on authority of his Father.So there is a chain of command,or rather commandment,here.
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Grateful4mercy
Guest
Amen, Brother. You gave me goosebumps. Very well said!
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