Why or why not

[benjamindt]

Firstly I must admit that I know I really need to work on my ability to express my thoughts in less childish/ignorant methods. I don’t use words well and I don’t know how to always describe things or ideas in a satisfyingly beautiful way, so I apologize if my writing/typing is hard to take.

With that out of the way, I don’t think all beauty is subjective. I think a lot of things men and women consider beautiful is subjective but then I wonder if they even know what beauty is.

I think beauty does indicate truth, and i don’t mean subjective beauty. I think wherever you find truth, you will find beauty. Anything right with God and conforming to the will of God would be beautiful because it is bounded in goodness and truth.

I do not think you can have beauty where there is no truth. Nothing beautiful is a lie, and no lie is beautiful.

If God is beauty (and he is beauty, not beautiful) then the things that are closest to him will have the most beauty, perhaps that is why masses and divine liturgies have desired to be as beautiful as possible. How else to reflect God in ways we can sense than by creating a beautiful room in which the most beautiful thing we can do occurs?

I think the draw of actual beauty is the same draw that pulls all men and women to God (whether seen or not).

I, as the OP, was not commenting on the substance of the latin rite, because it is very beautiful because it is 100% in line with God, just as all the EC divine liturgies are, the substance of all the rites being the same, with the same direction and goal. Whether one uses incense or not, whether one is spoken or sung, that is a different matter and it does matter.

I never imagined leaving the Latin rite because I want an iconostasis and my parish doesn’t have one, what i was saying though is that i’m feeling drawn to the eastern rites. I also said I don’t know what is truly drawing me, only that i feel the draw.

I won’t lie and say I don’t think some of the EC liturgies are more pleasing to my senses, but that isn’t the reason (i don’t think) why i was wondering about changing rites, because truthfully, there are some amazing latin rite parishes which are equally if not more pleasing to my senses and the extraordinary form of the latin mass is amazingly pleasing to my senses.

We can all speculate about why I’m drawn to the EC but that wasn’t my point and if I don’t know what in particular is drawing me, then i’m not sure anyone else is going to figure it out (or even if you did, how would i know).

We can talk about why so many latin rite parishes have become so protestant in their celebration of the Lord, but that’s not my point and I’m more inclined to blame the people and not the Church, so why would i change rites because some people took some paintings down.

 

[Mongo]

I recommend studying Eastern theology and spirituality and get a handle on what you would be transferring to before you decide that you should. Maybe read Alexander Schmemann’s commentaries on the divine liturgy to get a start. His book on *Great Lent *is very good and so is For the Life of the World. They are commentaries on the texts of the Orthodox/Byzantine liturgy and spirituality.

I have had the same or a similar feeling when I have attended Byzantine or Orthodox liturgies in the past. Heaven on earth is a common way of describing it. In the Lamb’s Supper Scott Hahn quotes an old story of the conversion of the Slavs where delegates were sent out to the cities of the world to experience the way people worshiped in various places. They went to Rome to observe the west, the went to Constantinople to observe the Byzantines worship, and the went to the middle east to observe muslim worship. When they experienced the liturgy in Constantinople they said it was like heaven on earth.

 

[angelic06]

I have to be honest, I feel dead at mass in my Latin Rite church. Granted, we are in a temporary building with no pews until we can build the church, etc etc. Many reasons exist why but I experienced a Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite and ever sense I have felt a great pull.

I know I don’t have to “switch” or “change” rites, I can go to a Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy if I want but I feel compelled to change rites, but what would that even mean?

Let’s pretend I can change or have permission, what would be the difference between being a Latin attending a Byzantine rite vs being a Byzantine attending a Byzantine rite?

I don’t understand what I’m feeling, and it doesn’t matter what I want really. If the church says i can’t, i can’t and Glory to God. But even if I could change should I? I honestly don’t feel nearly as close or drawn to God in one as I do the other…

Anyway, I’m severely confused. I just want that feeling every time I go to mass/divine liturgy. And no, I don’t hate the ordinary form of the latin mass, that has nothing to do with it. I love the Church and if She told me I should stand on my head while I recite the Our Father, who am I to argue with Her, but I don’t want to deny what God may be pulling me towards.

Are you currently at a Byzantine church? I find the Byzantine (Ruthenian) liturgies very beautiful, and I have been attending our chapel since its founding five years ago, but it has only been within the past year that I have given serious thought to requesting an official transfer. Nevertheless, I draw from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as a backdrop for my own spiritual reflections frequently.

**The most beautiful, both aesthetically as well as theologically, I think, are the parts which I, as a layman, cannot sing in the Divine Liturgy, and that is the anaphora. (“For you are God, ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible…”) Why I think these words in parentheses are beautiful is a subject for another time and will take several paragraphs to discuss, and no, it is not the notion in Catholic circles that the anaphora is what “makes the Mass the Mass” (or “the Divine Liturgy the Divine Liturgy”). (And no, I am not dismissing this notion; it is just that I have something else to say about the anaphora.)

 

[benjamindt]

Are you currently at a Byzantine church? I find the Byzantine (Ruthenian) liturgies very beautiful, and I have been attending our chapel since its founding five years ago, but it has only been within the past year that I have given serious thought to requesting an official transfer. Nevertheless, I draw from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as a backdrop for my own spiritual reflections frequently.

**The most beautiful, both aesthetically as well as theologically, I think, are the parts which I, as a layman, cannot sing in the Divine Liturgy, and that is the anaphora. (“For you are God, ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible…”) Why I think these words in parentheses are beautiful is a subject for another time and will take several paragraphs to discuss, and no, it is not the notion in Catholic circles that the anaphora is what “makes the Mass the Mass” (or “the Divine Liturgy the Divine Liturgy”).

I don’t remember the exact Liturgy but I remember them being Byzantine (it’s been a while) The closest one to me is a Ruthenian Catholic Church and they have a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (I’m pretty sure, I know it’s Ruthenian, the liturgy may be different from what i remember).

I’m honestly leaning to just attending the divine liturgies when i can instead of changing. I’m not sure. I don’t know anything about the byzantine Church and obviously wouldn’t switch without knowing, that’s why I’ve said I feel drawn by the liturgy. I’m not necessarily itching to change. I just want to do what God wants me to do and be where He wants me to be.

I know there is no more truth in the Byzantine Liturgies than there is in the Roman Masses, and vice versa. I just want to do what God wants me to do and I’m wondering if changing rites is what He’s drawing me to. Not that I understand why, if He is, but then again I don’t need to understand His will, I just want to do it.

 

[GEddie]

Truth is still not equable with beauty.

Human death is certainly true, but there is no beauty whatsoever in it. Conversely, a painted false door in a stone wall might be beautifully done, but it is still a visual deception.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Mongo]

Truth is still not equable with beauty.

Human death is certainly true, but there is no beauty whatsoever in it. Conversely, a painted false door in a stone wall might be beautifully done, but it is still a visual deception.

ICXC NIKA

Death isn’t truth, and neither is a painted door.

 

[benjamindt]

Truth is still not equable with beauty.

Human death is certainly true, but there is no beauty whatsoever in it. Conversely, a painted false door in a stone wall might be beautifully done, but it is still a visual deception.

ICXC NIKA

A beautiful door that is not a door can not be a beautiful door, it can only be a beautiful painting of a door on a rock.

I’m going to go find some writings by Church fathers about beauty and truth. I’m sure there are some out there.

 

[GEddie]

Well I guess this is where I get off.

No-one is going to convince me that beauty is not subjective, or that beauty and truth **necessarily **go together. Moreover, I noticed that my question as to whether transfers from West to East over aesthetics meant the Latin Church was less “true” was ignored.

OP: Whatever you choose, God Bless, and ICXC NIKA.

To me, switching churches over aesthetic preferences belongs in the same column as concerns over “being spiritually fed.” But that’s just me.

So long, hasta la vista, Cinco de Mayo and all that stuff.

God bless, everybody, and ICXC NIKA.

 

[benjamindt]

Well I guess this is where I get off.

No-one is going to convince me that beauty is not subjective, or that beauty and truth **necessarily **go together. Moreover, I noticed that my question as to whether transfers from West to East over aesthetics meant the Latin Church was less “true” was ignored.

OP: Whatever you choose, God Bless, and ICXC NIKA.

To me, switching churches over aesthetic preferences belongs in the same column as concerns over “being spiritually fed.” But that’s just me.

So long, hasta la vista, Cinco de Mayo and all that stuff.

God bless, everybody, and ICXC NIKA.

I addressed your question. Obviously the Roman Church is not “less true” That is why I addressed the difference between divine beauty and subjective “beauty” which i would contend that subjective beauty isn’t beauty because beauty is something that is from God, and God is not subjective.

And thanks, I doubt I will be switching, but you never know. I love God and His Church (whatever rite) and I want to be wherever He wants me to be.

And I sincerely thank you for your participation in this thread, I’m glad for the many different thoughts on the subject. I don’t know what I’m going to do, but pray for me that I will let God choose for me.

Peace of Christ be with you all.

 

[Augustine]

The Divine Liturgy is an icon of Heaven and an irresistible invitation to worship the Holy Trinity!

Pax Christi

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have to be honest, I feel dead at mass in my Latin Rite church. Granted, we are in a temporary building with no pews until we can build the church, etc etc. Many reasons exist why but I experienced a Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite and ever sense I have felt a great pull.

I know I don’t have to “switch” or “change” rites, I can go to a Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy if I want but I feel compelled to change rites, but what would that even mean?

Let’s pretend I can change or have permission, what would be the difference between being a Latin attending a Byzantine rite vs being a Byzantine attending a Byzantine rite?

I don’t understand what I’m feeling, and it doesn’t matter what I want really. If the church says i can’t, i can’t and Glory to God. But even if I could change should I? I honestly don’t feel nearly as close or drawn to God in one as I do the other…

Anyway, I’m severely confused. I just want that feeling every time I go to mass/divine liturgy. And no, I don’t hate the ordinary form of the latin mass, that has nothing to do with it. I love the Church and if She told me I should stand on my head while I recite the Our Father, who am I to argue with Her, but I don’t want to deny what God may be pulling me towards.

If you’d like to change your ritual church (not simply “rite”), then you need to write to both your bishop and the bishop of the Eparchy you intend on switching to. Personally, I am fine being a Latin, and the fact I can (and do) attend Byzantine (in my case, Melkite) Divine Liturgy, is, I believe, a witness to the universality of the Church. I understand your frustration, but REALLY pray before you make a decision like this. If I recall correctly, your switch in ritual churches must be approved by the Bishop (I am not an expert in these matters).
By the way, many people that attend Eastern Catholic liturgies are canonically Latin

 

[Casilda]

I’m with you, OP. I get it. I first experienced the Divine Liturgy about 7-8 years ago, and while it felt kind of unusual and different, it felt divine. Since then, I’ve longed to return full time, but the rest of my family didn’t feel inclined to join me so I stayed where I was. Until about a month ago.

I just realized that I couldn’t take it anymore at my Latin Rite parish. My decision wasn’t about “not being spiritually fed” of any of that cliche nonsense. It was bigger than that. I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium. I understand why the Latin Rite liturgy needed a little reformation. But the liturgy at all of the Latin Rite parishes within a one-hour drive from me seems completely devoid of the divine. The parish announcements have the same prominence as the Eucharistic Prayer. The music varies, but generally is very poor. People in the pews are lifeless. It seems as if very few really understand why they’re even there. It’s certainly not like this everywhere. There are vibrant Roman Catholic dioceses and vibrant parishes. But not near me.

Robert Cardinal Sarah in the book God or Nothing says (I’m heavily paraphrasing because I don’t have the book in front of me.) that the liturgy is for God. When we make it about and for us, we destroy it. People leave without having had a deep, personal encounter with the living God.

That has been my experience entirely. For years. And I’m a weak man, desperately in need of God, seeking him with my entire being. I need that deep, personal encounter, at least once in awhile, to keep me going. And I’ve found it at Divine Liturgy.

From start to end, Divine Liturgy is about seeking mercy from and giving praise to God. There’s an unmistakable sense of leaving the world behind and entering into communion with the Divine. I love the Divine Liturgy. It helps me to love the Divine.

x ad infinitum

Changing rites is I understand difficult, and unless you were discerning a vocation within that rite probably would bring you little benefit.

The Divine Liturgy is an icon of Heaven and an irresistible invitation to worship the Holy Trinity!

Pax Christi

and it fills my soul.