Why Organized Religion is a Problematic Way to Grow Closer to God.

[at_peace]

a case of relegion blues.

 

[RobHom]

I think it is within the rules and purpose of this forum to open up a dialogue regarding the topic of non-Catholic religion.

OK, I’ll “play”…open your dialogue…but be up-front enough to name that non-Catholic “religion”…OK?

Beyond that…so far all you have done is posted a mini-thesis of justification for your claims to having left the Catholic Church.

Are you possible a “poseur”?

 

[buffalo]

The Roman Catholic Church has become a bureaurocracy of the highest order and has been for centuries. It could be argued that this has diverged from the teachings of Jesus which sought to simplify spiritual life away from this type of thing. This is because, when humans create organizations, political intrigue ensues, with all it’s inherent flaws. Jesus understood this.

Jesus does indeed see the flaws of men. He founded His Church and bound it. He protects it through the Holy Spirit.

In the case of preserving the deposit of faith the Church is essential. Jesus founded an organization and a head of the organization. If He had not done so the Catholic Church would not be in existence today and His message would be lost.

Jesus created the organization not humans.

 

[at_peace]

my question is: are you troubled by the organized religion or the confusion of religions among christianity?

I’ve concluded that, the more organized the religion, the worse.

 

[buffalo]

I’ve concluded that, the more organized the religion, the worse.

Great - now give us the facts. Or is it an emotional issue?

 

[at_peace]

OK, I’ll “play”…open your dialogue…but be up-front enough to name that non-Catholic “religion”…OK?

Beyond that…so far all you have done is posted a mini-thesis of justification for your claims to having left the Catholic Church.

Are you possible a “poseur”?

I don’t understand French, sorry. I thought this was the most appropriate forum because I’ve decided to try to follow Jesus without the help of any religious organization.

 

[RobHom]

The Roman Catholic Church has become a bureaurocracy of the highest order and has been for centuries. It could be argued that this has diverged from the teachings of Jesus which sought to simplify spiritual life away from this type of thing. This is because, when humans create organizations, political intrigue ensues, with all it’s inherent flaws. Jesus understood this.

And yet throughout my entire life of well over half a century I haven’t spent more than 3 minutes worrying about all the hoopla you are concerned about… I could conversely argue that your argument is like a colander and full of holes…looks like we’re headed toward that “interpretation thing”…at just a little less than light speed.

 

[at_peace]

Great - now give us the facts. Or is it an emotional issue?

I’m a human subject to the same emotions as others. Probably more because I’m female.

 

[buffalo]

I’m a human subject to the same emotions as others. Probably more because I’m female.

How were you hurt?

 

[RobHom]

I don’t understand French, sorry. I thought this was the most appropriate forum because I’ve decided to try to follow Jesus without the help of any religious organization.

Here’s the explanation of “poseur”= poser. Fake, etc.

If I had a penny for every “former Catholic” who popped up in a Catholic web forum… I could buy a new Bentley every week.

In other words, I am questioning the very veracity of your statement that you left the Catholic Church.

SO, are you going to ante up and name your new religion, or are you going to play the game of “obfuscation and dodging by answering questions with questions”…?

 

[at_peace]

And yet throughout my entire life of well over half a century I haven’t spent more than 3 minutes worrying about all the hoopla you are concerned about… I could conversely argue that your argument is like a colander and full of holes…looks like we’re headed toward that “interpretation thing”…at just a little less than light speed.

I don’t know what you mean by the “interpretation thing”. I’ve never heard that term. I’m not a Bible scholar.

There are varying interpretations for Bible passages even within the Catholic Church, as far as that goes. I do have respect to Catholic intellects and scholars, but of course the Church would never question the interpretation of passages that support its place as the one true Church that Christ established or the unique characteristics of the Catholic Eucharist, inspite of passages that might contradict their stance.

But, as I say, I’m not avidly interested in debating Bible passages…

 

[rinnie]

I cant see things the way you see them. To me when I go to Church I am receiving Christ in the Eucharist, I am hearing the word of Christ and getting closer to him each time. If I were to leave the Church I would in turn be turning away from God. If the RCC is a organized Religion it was organized by Jesus Christ himself. And thats good enough for me. How do you feel you are keeping close to Christ without keeping and learning his commandments. And receiving him in Church. Now if you arent Catholic then I can understand, but if you are than I cant. No offense to any other Relgion though.

 

[at_peace]

Here’s the explanation of “poseur”= poser. Fake, etc.

If I had a penny for every “former Catholic” who popped up in a Catholic web forum… I could buy a new Bentley every week.

In other words, I am questioning the very veracity of your statement that you left the Catholic Church.

SO, are you going to ante up and name your new religion, or are you going to play the game of “obfuscation and dodging by answering questions with questions”…?

My new religion? I remain a baptized Christian who is not a part of any congregation. I recently decided to stop attending Mass based on the arguments I discussed in my opening post.

 

[buffalo]

My new religion? I remain a baptized Christian who is not a part of any congregation. I recently decided to stop attending Mass based on the arguments I discussed in my opening post.

Make sure you know what you left. Most people don’t.

I am here to help.

 

[Contarini]

I think my biggest reason for ceasing my involvement with the Catholic Church, and my reluctance to join any other, is that organized religion inevitably is a flawed system of spiritual progress.

People involved in churches and church organisations always succumb to the ordinary evils of bureaurocracy. They hold positions of power that is in their personal self interest to protect. They do this in usual ways, such as squelching their opposition, securing their power base, creating political alliances.

Of course, the Catholic Church, with it’s size and hierarchy, has one of the most strongly established traditions of political intrigue that permeates the culture of its institutions.

Many current religions, including Chrisitianity and its varying sects, originally sprang up in opposition to the organized religion of the day.

I think that’s a misreading of early Christianity. Obviously early Christianity was *incidentally *opposed to established forms of Judaism, because these forms of Judaism did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. And obviously the corruption and abuse of power characteristic of all organizations (as you note) helped motivate people to look for an alternative. But these are relatively peripheral. The basis for Christianity was faith in Jesus as the Messiah, not “opposition to organized religion.” It was therefore perfectly natural that Christianity would itself turn into an “organized religion.” While that organized religion always needs reforms, this is not a reason to abandon it–it doesn’t touch the central question, which is whether Jesus is really the Son of God or not. If He is, then we best show our faithfulness to Him by remaining faithful to the historical community built on faith in Him, bearing with and endeavoring to reform its corruptions and allowing it to bear with and reform ours.

Buddhaism arose out the corruption of Hinduism, Christianity out of that of the Jews, Protestantism was a response to the failings of the Catholic Church, and some of the newer forms of Chrisitanity sprang from stagnant Mainline Protestant Churches.

This is a sterile and depressing cycle, leading to despair, cynicism, and arrogance (and if you don’t think despair and arrogance go together I think you haven’t looked into the human soul deeply enough). We have to break it. There are two possible ways: remain with the community in which you find yourself, or find the community that you believe has the truth and stick with it no matter what its corruptions may be.

You radically underestimate the purifying effect of humble submission to a concrete human community. Of course this is only possible if we believe that such a community truly embodies God’s plans for the human race. But there is no reason to assume that only a morally and spiritually perfect community can do so. Everything we see about the world we live in indicates that it’s not so simple.

I know that the basic, Enlightenment-driven assumption of American culture is that the hardy individual can find purity and goodness by striking out for his or herself and repudiating the corruptions of tradition. But I think this is a disastrous lie.

Edwin

 

[RobHom]

My new religion? I remain a baptized Christian who is not a part of any congregation. I recently decided to stop attending Mass based on the arguments I discussed in my opening post.

That being the case…how is it that you expect to “open a dialogue” on a “religion”?

I don’t wish to seem antagonistic, and I really prefer to be helpful as well…but its very difficult when it appears that you are being somewhat evasive in your answers…or point.

 

[RobHom]

I don’t know what you mean by the “interpretation thing”. I’ve never heard that term. I’m not a Bible scholar.

Ok, we’ve eliminated that issue. BTW…neither am I.

There are varying interpretations for Bible passages even within the Catholic Church, as far as that goes.

Can you provide examples of those varying interpretations held within the Catholic Church?.

I do have respect to Catholic intellects and scholars, but of course the Church would never question the interpretation of passages that support its place as the one true Church that Christ established or the unique characteristics of the Catholic Eucharist, inspite of passages that might contradict their stance.

Was that a “fore-handed slap” or a “back-handed slap”? Can you cite contradictory passages?

But, as I say, I’m not avidly interested in debating Bible passages…

No need to ‘debate’…just state your case and support it with ‘proofs’.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Can you provide examples of those varying interpretations held within the Catholic Church?.

A better question, I think, would be how many passages of Scripture has the Catholic Church infallibly interpreted?

 

[RobHom]

A better question, I think, would be how many passages of Scripture has the Catholic Church infallibly interpreted?

Very true… I had thought of that, but elected to ask the other way.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Very true… I had thought of that, but elected to ask the other way.

So if a Catholic has a question about, say, a passage in the book of 2 Corinthians, that the Catholic Church hasn’t infallibly interpreted, where does he or she go to get the “right” interpretation? Since they cannot rely on their own judgment (or whatever other criteria you would use to interpret any other book).