Why "practice" religion?

[PathDiagnosis]

Hello,

I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**

Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.

In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.

Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular

---

Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?

---

 

[Nelka]

Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?

Yes there is a God and He is God.

You need a relationship with Him, do married couples have a relationship or do they live silently together?

I was not born a Catholic.
I was not born into any luxury.
I was unable to research the Church history as a child.

All souls yearn for God but some ignore this feeling and try to replace it with something else.

Why did you fall away from the Church?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I practice religion because practice makes perfect. God is perfect. Therefore practicing makes me more like God (theosis).

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I have a relationship with God because He wills it. Yes, I was born into Catholicism, but I choose to remain because I believe it is true. Yes, I am blessed to have luxuries such as cash to afford to buy a mini theology/apologetics library and the time to read up on it.

I can NOT be happy without religion because it is through practicing the Catholic faith that I receive Holy Communion.

What is wrong with living without religion… You’d be missing out on keeping up with strengthening that relationship between you and God.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Why did you fall away from the Church?

I stopped believing that if there is a God, He created the Catholic Church. The historical evidence for Christ, and even the the Resurrection is amazing both in amount and content. However, such amount and content seem proportional to the massive propagation of the Christian religion/community.

I see what can the "fingerprints of God’ on the Catholic Church but still don’t believe. Examples of fingerprints:

*longevity of the Catholic Church
*even the “bad” Popes never reversed Christianity
*courageous role of Pope Pius XII during the Holocaust
*etc

 

[Tony888]

Hello,
*
***Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. ****
***Basically, can you be happy without religion? ***
***Can you go without it? ***
***Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? ***
Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?

• God in your life increases wellbeing, life is not a happiness contest.
• What do you mean, “go without it?”
• Do you personally have morals if you are apathetic, don’t know or care about them?

PathDiagnosis,
I urge you to read up on James Fowler and Stages of Faith.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

• God in your life increases wellbeing, life is not a happiness contest.
• What do you mean, “go without it?”
• Do you personally have morals if you are apathetic, don’t know or care about them?

PathDiagnosis,
I urge you to read up on James Fowler and Stages of Faith.

Morals exist. They may come from a God (if He exists), human experience, a combination of the aforementioned, or just one of the aforementioned. I’m just not religious.

I stopped believing that the Catholic Church was created by God, mostly after my study of early Church history, including the historical evidence for Jesus Christ. The rest of Christianity is based on such historical evidence, and I already concluded that non-Catholicism was/is false in a Universe in which the Judeo-Christian God was/is true.

Other religions lack historical evidence and there is not enough time in life to learn the details of every single every single religion that ever existed and still exist for me to pick one to join. I study religion for pleasure sometimes.However, I do enjoy Greek and Egyptian mythology, so I supposed I indirectly study religion via that enjoyment. Those religions no longer exist.

Thank you for the suggested reading. I noticed you’re LDS. Interesting. I considering Mormonism in the past. Unlike the plethora of Protestant denominations, Mormonism claims to be the original Church of Jesus Christ, similar to what Catholics believe. I admire that position.

Peace!

 

[kaneata]

Hello,

I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**

Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.

In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.

Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular

---

Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?

---

I don’t necessarily feel like I “need” to practice a religion, I “want” to. I like going to church and receiving communion. I have faith and believe. I have studied for myself and want to practice what I’ve learned and discovered. I have felt God’s presence.
I couldn’t answer whether living without religion can still make a person happy because I wouldn’t want to find out.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

I don’t necessarily feel like I “need” to practice a religion, I “want” to. I like going to church and receiving communion. I have faith and believe. I have studied for myself and want to practice what I’ve learned and discovered. I have felt God’s presence.
I couldn’t answer whether living without religion can still make a person happy because I wouldn’t want to find out.

Thank you so much for your response. I think in general people do what “works” for them: religion, non-religion, etc.

Peace

 

[Jack_Bauer]

To answer your real question. Because I believe I follow the commandments of Christ. That practice has turned into genuine love for God and my brothers and sisters, whether in Christ or not.

By definition, you are considered “apostate” because you no longer believe in God or in Jesus, if I understand your post, This is different than heresy.

Going through the motions really isn’t good enough. So no matter what devotion you involved yourself in or sacramental you wore will or ever will get you into heaven. It’s the genuine devotion behind the intent that will make you a Saint [get you into heaven]. I croak everytime I I hear someone say something like you did and continues to “practice” the faith. Unless one adopts Jesus into ones heart with all of the requirements and devotions, there is a good chance they won’t be saved in the end.

Hello,

I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**

Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.

In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.

Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular

---

Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?

---

 

[PathDiagnosis]

To answer your real question. Because I believe I follow the commandments of Christ. That practice has turned into genuine love for God and my brothers and sisters, whether in Christ or not.

By definition, you are considered “apostate” because you no longer believe in God or in Jesus, if I understand your post, This is different than heresy.

Going through the motions really isn’t good enough. So no matter what devotion you involved yourself in or sacramental you wore will or ever will get you into heaven. It’s the genuine devotion behind the intent that will make you a Saint [get you into heaven]. I croak everytime I I hear someone say something like you ***did and continues to “practice” the faith. *** Unless one adopts Jesus into ones heart with all of the requirements and devotions, there is a good chance they won’t be saved in the end.

I don’t know what you mean. I currently do not practice Catholicism or consider myself Catholic. By definition I am an apostate because Baptism is a permanent mark.

I listed my “external” Catholic life to give an idea of the things I did when I was a “practicing Catholic”. I did believe in Jesus Christ and had a relationship with Him. I enjoyed Holy Hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, even beyond First Fridays. I did not enter any non Catholic Christian community because I believed them to be false under the assumption that Christianity was true (especially Sola Scriptura).

Peace

 

[Tony888]

Morals exist. They may come from a God (if He exists), human experience, a combination of the aforementioned, or just one of the aforementioned. I’m just not religious.

I stopped believing that the Catholic Church was created by God, mostly after my study of early Church history, including the historical evidence for Jesus Christ. The rest of Christianity is based on such historical evidence, and I already concluded that non-Catholicism was/is false in a Universe in which the Judeo-Christian God was/is true.

Other religions lack historical evidence and there is not enough time in life to learn the details of every single every single religion that ever existed and still exist for me to pick one to join. I study religion for pleasure sometimes.However, I do enjoy Greek and Egyptian mythology, so I supposed I indirectly study religion via that enjoyment. Those religions no longer exist.

Thank you for the suggested reading. I noticed you’re LDS. Interesting. I considering Mormonism in the past. Unlike the plethora of Protestant denominations, Mormonism claims to be the original Church of Jesus Christ, similar to what Catholics believe. I admire that position.

Peace!

Hi PD,
If we are apathetic about having clear moral guidelines, then what are we left with? Don’t break the law, or at least don’t get caught? **Morals don’t exist unless you choose them to exist. **

I believe every type of religion eventually comes down to faith and having the Holy Spirit in your life… None have the empirical evidence to sway an Athiest

So while studying books on religion is insteresting, I urge you to focus on prayer. Any religion without God in your heart is just a community group…

 

[Jack_Bauer]

I don’t know what you mean. I currently do not practice Catholicism or consider myself Catholic. By definition I am an apostate because Baptism is a permanent mark.

I listed my “external” Catholic life to give an idea of the things I did when I was a “practicing Catholic”. I did believe in Jesus Christ and had a relationship with Him. I enjoyed Holy Hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, even beyond First Fridays. I did not enter any non Catholic Christian community because I believed them to be false under the assumption that Christianity was true (especially Sola Scriptura).

Peace

So basically, you reject God… or more precisely you reject Christ. Don’t know your culpability, but it sounds like you received enough catechesis to know truth, yet still cognitively chose not to believe.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

To answer your real question. Because I believe I follow the commandments of Christ. That practice has turned into genuine love for God and my brothers and sisters, whether in Christ or not.

By definition, you are considered “apostate” because you no longer believe in God or in Jesus, if I understand your post, This is different than heresy.

Going through the motions really isn’t good enough. So no matter what devotion you involved yourself in or sacramental you wore will or ever will get you into heaven. It’s the genuine devotion behind the intent that will make you a Saint [get you into heaven]. I croak everytime I I hear someone say something like you did and continues to “practice” the faith. Unless one adopts Jesus into ones heart with all of the requirements and devotions, there is a good chance they won’t be saved in the end.

Thank you for your response. Again, we do what works for us. This is great so long as do not harm others or ourselves in the process. I noticed this when I was a Catholic, especially with regard to the practice of private devotions. I prayed the Marian Rosary but others didn’t and had preference for other chaplets. Another example: I preferred the fivefold scapular over the Miraculous Medal.

Thanks.

Peace

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Hi PD,
If we are apathetic about having clear moral guidelines, then what are we left with? Don’t break the law, or at least don’t get caught? **Morals don’t exist unless you choose them to exist. **

I believe every type of religion eventually comes down to faith and having the Holy Spirit in your life… None have the empirical evidence to sway an Athiest

So while studying books on religion is insteresting, I urge you to focus on prayer. Any religion without God in your heart is just a community group…

All,

Thank you so much for your responses. It is much easier to discuss these matters online with all sorts of people in the world than in person. I have Catholic friends but it is nice to hear from non-Catholics as well.

I’m not a very “philosophical” person (see my profile) so please forgive me if I use any words incorrectly, including “philosophical”.

I don’t know where morals come from. The Seven Noahide Laws make sense and work. Do they come from a God or “human experience” and later “codified” by religion (Judaism)? Things to think about.

I am currently reading the Book of Mormon (now at Jarom) and doing my best to correlate it with Doctrine and Covenants. I try prayer along the lines of “God if you exist, help me”. I try to be as “prayerful” as I can. I know there are different versions of Joseph Smith’s vision. Would God lead different people to accept different versions? It doesn’t make sense to me. The same goes for private revelations of the Catholic Church** (yes, I know, they are not part of the Deposit of Faith which ended with the death of St. John)**.

If all the religions in the world “lead to God” how is it that certain religions (especially Catholicism) claim to be the ordinary means of salvation? Yes, know about culpability (those you through now fault of there own do not know the Gospel Christ…His Church…etc…i forgot the CCC paragraph#).

We all had/have different experiences that lead/led us to God(s) and a particular religion or non-religion. Maybe, like human experiences in general, we are all neither correct or incorrect? Even within “non-religion” there are variances. For example, I might be an “agnostic” (semantics semantics!). Others are(often annoying) hardcore anti religious atheists (Richard Dawkins, people on The Atheist Experience that joke about stealing and abusing consecrated Communion wafers, etc).

Peace

 

[PathDiagnosis]

So basically, you reject God… or more precisely you reject Christ. Don’t know your culpability, but it sounds like you received enough catechesis to know truth, yet still cognitively chose not to believe.

"
“Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.” (Lumen Gentium 16)
"

I think I am seeking God. I occasionally pray “God if you are there, etc” while learning about religion. Did God just make me “overly” objective and evidence/proof driven? By the time I die I might not have concluded to any single religion- there are and were too many.
Maybe my efforts count according to Lumen Gentium 16?

Peace

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello,

I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**

Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.

In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.

Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular

---

Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?

---

Judaism is an orthoprax religion in that it involves the practice of moral behaviors. Studying the Torah (Written Law) and Talmud (Oral Law) gives one a better idea of what is considered moral behavior: one cannot solely rely on one’s own conscience and intuition to judge what is good or bad. For example, one might not have given much thought to feeding one’s pet before oneself and one’s family since one’s dog and cat are unable to delay their need for gratification; or not demonstrating unusual dexterity in front of someone who may be disabled. Knowledge of the Law gives us guidelines. It is not just a legalistic enumeration of minutiae that have no relevance to the modern world. But knowledge must be put into action (“Studying is not the ultimate but the doing.”) It is not enough to love and pray for others–essential as this is–when one is in a position to help them by means of actions. Now It is true one’s behavior should not be for the purpose of display or boasting, but rather be motivated by sincere, not selfish, intentions based on faith. For example, take the area of helping others financially. Judaism outlines moral degrees of charitable giving from lowest to highest. Among the lowest forms include giving to others grudgingly and believing in reciprocity, that is, that one will receive a material (or spiritual) reward for one’s generosity. Nonetheless, even this kind of non-altruistic helping is considered better than not helping at all.

You state you are knowledgeable in the Catholic religion. However, you also state that works don’t matter much to Jesus. This is incorrect, for Catholicism believes that faith without works is unfulfilled faith. Faith is needed for sure, but faith must be demonstrated by one’s moral behavior.

 

[jmcrae]

Having a community to belong to is very important. Religion provides that community in a way that allows you to have contact with a wide variety of opinions and outlooks - more so than belonging to a school or a political party.

Not that you shouldn’t support your school,or belong to a political party, but belonging to a religious community gives you a broader perspective.

Even if I were to stop believing in God or in the Sacraments, I think I would still come to Church on Sundays, just because of that.

I believe in the Catholic faith because it’s the only one that makes sense to me.

I also don’t think you have to know every detail about every other religion before rejecting them. Anything pantheistic or polytheistic is out already, in my case, because I know by reason that there is only one God. So, as soon as I know it’s pantheistic or polytheistic, that’s all I need to know before crossing it off my list.

Anything that didn’t come into existence until hundreds or thousands of years after its’ founder died and went to Heaven is also out, for being speculative rather than experiential.

Which pretty much leaves you with Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam. Except that the form of Judaism established by Moses no longer exists, and nobody knows which form of Islam was established by Mohammed. So we are left with the Catholic Church, which is known to have been established by Jesus Christ, is monotheistic, and has a sensible moral code.

Thus, the winner is: The Catholic Church. :yeah_me:

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Judaism is an orthoprax religion in that it involves the practice of moral behaviors. Studying the Torah (Written Law) and Talmud (Oral Law) gives one a better idea of what is considered moral behavior: one cannot solely rely on one’s own conscience and intuition to judge what is good or bad. For example, one might not have given much thought to feeding one’s pet before oneself and one’s family since one’s dog and cat are unable to delay their need for gratification; or not demonstrating unusual dexterity in front of someone who may be disabled. Knowledge of the Law gives us guidelines. It is not just a legalistic enumeration of minutiae that have no relevance to the modern world. But knowledge must be put into action (“Studying is not the ultimate but the doing.”) It is not enough to love and pray for others–essential as this is–when one is in a position to help them by means of actions. Now It is true one’s behavior should not be for the purpose of display or boasting, but rather be motivated by sincere, not selfish, intentions based on faith. For example, take the area of helping others financially. Judaism outlines moral degrees of charitable giving from lowest to highest. Among the lowest forms include giving to others grudgingly and believing in reciprocity, that is, that one will receive a material (or spiritual) reward for one’s generosity. Nonetheless, even this kind of non-altruistic helping is considered better than not helping at all.

---

You state you are knowledgeable in the Catholic religion. However, you also state that works don’t matter much to Jesus. This is incorrect, for Catholicism believes that faith without works is unfulfilled faith. Faith is needed for sure, but faith must be demonstrated by one’s moral behavior.***

Indeed. I am aware of the relationship of faith and works in Catholicism. I listed some of the external things I did when I was a practicing Catholic with a “relationship with God/Jesus” (yes, I had one) as an example of the “sort of Catholic” I was. I emphasized “works don’t matter much to Jesus” to assert that just because one goes to Mass, etc but their “heart” is not there…it means kinda nothing.

 

[Warrenton]

Did God just make me “overly” objective and evidence/proof driven?

First, let me say that based on your self description, we are unfortunate to have lost you, hopefully this is temporary.

I hesitate to chime in on threads like this, but because you appear to be a fellow traveller, I’m making an exception!

Whether you are overly proof driven or not is the wrong question. Those of us who are proof driven are vexed by things that are hard to prove, or can only be established circumstantially or by inference.

There is no time machine a la back to the future. So, there are a bunch of things we will never know for certain. The past beyond living memory is never certain, by its very nature. In a real way, once time is past, it ceases to exist except in the perceptions of the living. If no people were left living, the capitol would just be a random pile of rocks and ore.

The same is true for the future: it is as insubstantial as the past; less so if we posit a time in the future when we are dead.

Hence, proof-criers like you and me have to learn to live with uncertainty and doubt. Double it by a factor of two or three if you are also skeptical. This is true whether or not we choose to believe in God. Either way, the mental calm of the credulous will be something we do not experience.

We know that there are all sorts and conditions of men and women. All are necessary for the survival of the race. Things which appear a handicap in one environment are often a salvation in another. For instance, a person prone to obesity is at a disadavantage in one place, but if food becomes scarce and the temperature plummets, that person may be the sole survivor.

Each of us must assess or character, our traits, and decide where we are best placed. The Church needs skeptics and inquisitors to protect her flock from the blandishments of fast talking nay-sayers. You know the kind I mean: the semi professional army of debunkers and scoffers who delight in confusing the trusting and straiforward. People like us see them as the liars and hucksters they are. Speak out!

But, you say, I am in a state of disbelief - all my conviction seems to have evaporated.

The reply is simple: you have proved it. You talked yourself out of conviction. What of that? You are apt to do that in all circumstances. You still took an oath at baptism, or confirmation, or in prayer. Now keep it.

People like us find outselves in the place of the volunteer who enlists after the enemy’s attack, but finds himself questioning the flag midway through the war. This is a common malady among soldiers - read the Illiad, it was known of 3000 years ago. The remedy for us is the same as for the soldier: keep fighting.

As Plato said, when we die there is either nothing, or for the good person it is better. In either event, there is no shame, and considerable credit in doing the right and strengthening others to strive after virtue and goodness.

No entitly apart from the Church has enabled so many to do the right and good over so long a period. The path for skeptics is as plain as for the saints. Ride on through it!