I
Incomplete
Guest
You won’t have that kind of certainty until you die. To follow Catholicism, you will not have that certainty. To NOT follow it, you will not have the certainty that you are doing what is right and true.
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1
1voice
Guest
John 18 Amplified:Hello,
I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**
Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.
In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.
Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular
Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?
37Pilate said to Him, Then You are a King? Jesus answered, You say it! [You speak correctly!] For I am a King. [Certainly I am a King!] This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who is of the Truth [who is a friend of the Truth, who belongs to the Truth] hears and listens to My voice.
Code:
38Pilate said to Him, What is Truth?Jesus answered you when he answered Pilate.
Pilate’s final comment … seems to match yours.
Seem like a perfect example of how religious ritual … no matter the source or the history … is worthless without a real, heart to heart, encounter with the creator of the universe.
W
Warrenton
Guest
You’re definitely getting warmer, as the old kindergartern game used to go.There is no single unifying purpose for our existence. Your life’s meaning is not for me, or anyone else, to hand down to you. We give life meaning, and that’s true for everyone.
In the first sentence, take out “single unifying” and you’re be warmer still without God.
We are either willed to be here, maintained by someone’s power, or not. If not, then it is a tale told by an idiot.
If there is a meaning, then the meaning is not ours. We know this because we do not create ourselves. As Plato writes in Phaedo, a lyre cannot be the product of its harmony.
From this, we know that if there is a purpose, it comes from God. Your purpose is the same as my purpose, is the same as everyone else’s purpose, even the King of Spain’s.
If a fly said to you, my purpose is different than the other fly’s, because he sits on a dungheap while I sit on a rotten apple, you would tell the fly he is confusing vocation, or happenstance with function.
Saying we have different purposes is not only false, like our friend the fly, it is a similar exaltation of the trivial, which is only not trivial in our eyes because of pride, or self pity, which is an inside out pride.
Cheers, and keep praying while you doubt.
It as effective as exercising, even though we eat donuts and watch re-runs of The Beverly Hillbillies.
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
My major concern is not the existence of God(s). It’s religion, that is, being religious.No, you don’t need to do it. Not unless you want a relationship with God, and want to live with Him one day. And if you’re absolutely certain there’s no God, then there’s no need.
It is not absolutely necessary for you to do what you do for a living, either.
Thank you all. I learned much from this. I might be back for other discussions.
Peace
I
Incomplete
Guest
I am still confused. You talk as though you don’t know if God exists, but that if He does exist, He started the Catholic church. So if you think He does exist and started a Church, why would you think He doesn’t want you to be part of it?My major concern is not the existence of God(s). It’s religion, that is, being religious.
Thank you all. I learned much from this. I might be back for other discussions.
Peace
You talk earlier about the evidence for the Resurrection, saying it isn’t enough for you because all the other miracles aren’t proven. That sounds like you aren’t sure about God. And now you say your concern is not the existence of God.
You talk about your problem with suffering. Why is that a “religion” problem and not a “God” problem?
I’m glad you learned a lot. I think people really want to answer your concerns, but it is hard to follow what your real concern is.
If you believe in God, to answer a former question, then yes, religion is necessary. It’s like with your friends. You don’t develop a relationship without conversation. You don’t develop a relationship with God without spending time with Him.
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
I think it’s best I summarize what I believe. I wrote several things under the assumption that readers are/were Theists, especially Catholic.I am still confused. You talk as though you don’t know if God exists, but that if He does exist, He started the Catholic church. So if you think He does exist and started a Church, why would you think He doesn’t want you to be part of it?
You talk earlier about the evidence for the Resurrection, saying it isn’t enough for you because all the other miracles aren’t proven. That sounds like you aren’t sure about God. And now you say your concern is not the existence of God.
You talk about your problem with suffering. Why is that a “religion” problem and not a “God” problem?
I’m glad you learned a lot. I think people really want to answer your concerns, but it is hard to follow what your real concern is.
If you believe in God, to answer a former question, then yes, religion is necessary. It’s like with your friends. You don’t develop a relationship without conversation. You don’t develop a relationship with God without spending time with Him.
1.) There might be a God
2.) One approach to God would be something like agnosticism, Deism, etc…essentially…apathy…non religious
3.) The other approach to God would be Theism
4.) Based on my studies, I conclude that Catholicism is the most reasonable Theistic approach and would “do” Catholicism when I am convinced.
Right now I feel I am at #2. When I mentioned how if I believe there is a God that he created the Catholic Church, I was aiming that towards the Theists, especially Catholics, reading this.
Peace
I
Incomplete
Guest
Are you saying you’re agnostic?I think it’s best I summarize what I believe. I wrote several things under the assumption that readers are/were Theists, especially Catholic.
1.) There might be a God
2.) One approach to God would be something like agnosticism, Deism, etc…essentially…apathy…non religious
3.) The other approach to God would be Theism
4.) Based on my studies, I conclude that Catholicism is the most reasonable Theistic approach and would “do” Catholicism when I am convinced.
Right now I feel I am at #2. When I mentioned how if I believe there is a God that he created the Catholic Church, I was aiming that towards the Theists, especially Catholics, reading this.
Peace
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
Sounds right.Are you saying you’re agnostic?
An agnostic and non-religious person who if concluded Theism (vs Deism) is “correct” would be Catholic due to historical evidence.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
I like order. I like having someplace to find answers. I like having the ultimate parent authority. I like believing I am a child of God. It makes me feel special. I like the idea of giving my children a sense of understanding and something that will serve them in the future when I am gone. I believe it is true and I like things that are true. How’s that?Hello,
I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**
Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.
In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.
Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular
Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
It is hard to believe and like you I agree with what hasn’t changed. There is a sense of Awe. Ya gotta wonder about all the buildings with crosses on them as you drive and then ask where do I go if I am going to go to one of them?I stopped believing that if there is a God, He created the Catholic Church. The historical evidence for Christ, and even the the Resurrection is amazing both in amount and content. However, such amount and content seem proportional to the massive propagation of the Christian religion/community.
I see what can the "fingerprints of God’ on the Catholic Church but still don’t believe. Examples of fingerprints:
*longevity of the Catholic Church
*even the “bad” Popes never reversed Christianity
*courageous role of Pope Pius XII during the Holocaust
*etc
I
Incomplete
Guest
Then it might be good to work that out before deciding about being “religious.” Having said that, it depends on what “religious” means to you. And also having said that, know that you will probably not find certainty, not 1+1=2 certainty, but that doesn’t mean God does not exist. And you can make a choice to live as if He does exist, even with lots of doubts.Sounds right.
An agnostic and non-religious person who if concluded Theism (vs Deism) is “correct” would be Catholic due to historical evidence.
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
This is what confuses me about religion. You say you are Jewish, but don’t practice/observe certain things that others Jews do. You even admit that you do things less in a way? Is God OK with that? I don’t get it. Who is correct? You, them, or no one? If no one is correct, why practice a religion at all?I’m not what one might call a religious or Orthodox Jew, that is, one who abides by most of the Torah commandments. Neither am I what one calls a secular, agnostic, or atheist Jew. I do believe in Judaism’s basic dogma about G-d, the Messiah, sin, and the afterlife, and observe most of the major holidays to a certain extent, but certainly not in the way an Orthodox Jew does. However, I have a deep faith in the moral teachings and wisdom of Judaism and attempt to put that faith into action in my everyday life. In Judaism (and no doubt in Catholicism as well), one does not “do it,” as though religion were a separate part of one’s life, as distinct from work and leisure activities. On the contrary, religion informs all the behavior in one’s life, not for the purpose of restriction but as a means to enlightenment.
I am not encouraging you to embrace theism; I am encouraging you to embrace the religion of your choice, which seems to be Catholicism. This requires knowledge of its teachings, which you say you have already, and beyond that, faith in its teachings. As I stated previously, this faith does not necessarily mean embracing every ritual without reasoning, doubting, and searching. I believe you can combine your faith and reason if you choose to do so. Like any other enterprise, and perhaps more so, it requires effort on your part. If you are content in your life without the possibility of growth by means of experiencing religion, so be it; however, I get the feeling you are not, or else you would not be questioning as you are. You also appear to be afraid of taking the plunge because it is risky in your view and perhaps a waste of your time. Again, as in other aspects of life, you will never find out what the potential rewards are if you are held back by fear.
According to Judaism (I think) I could just strive to be a Righteous Gentile by obeying the Noahide Laws as much as possible (which I would do anyways, and I think most people try)…and it doesn’t matter what religion. I don’t get that. The Jewish God creates Judaism but doesn’t care if I’m Jewish, etc?
As a Jewish person (you)…by encouraging me to embrace Catholicism, isn’t that like saying just do it because it works for you and might not be true anyways? In that case, religion is, like I’m say…a byproduct of human experience…why “do it” if I’m happy with everything else in life (I think).
I
Incomplete
Guest
I know this isn’t addressed to me, but I couldn’t resist.This is what confuses me about religion. You say you are Jewish, but don’t practice/observe certain things that others Jews do. You even admit that you do things less in a way? Is God OK with that? I don’t get it. Who is correct? You, them, or no one? If no one is correct, why practice a religion at all?
According to Judaism (I think) I could just strive to be a Righteous Gentile by obeying the Noahide Laws as much as possible (which I would do anyways, and I think most people try)…and it doesn’t matter what religion. I don’t get that. The Jewish God creates Judaism but doesn’t care if I’m Jewish, etc?
As a Jewish person (you)…by encouraging me to embrace Catholicism, isn’t that like saying just do it because it works for you and might not be true anyways? In that case, religion is, like I’m say…a byproduct of human experience…why “do it” if I’m happy with everything else in life (I think).
If I follow your thinking on this, then you are on the right path. If I follow your thinking, you are saying…don’t do just what works for you. Find truth and follow it.
The seeking you are doing, I pray you find truth and stay in it. “Practicing” religion can help you find it.
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
I get what some of you are saying about “practicing” religion without knowing absolutely everything about it.This bothers me. True, in other areas of life we accept/do things without knowing everything. We love co certain people, and trust them without empirical evidence. When doing chemistry homework or working somehow as chemists, we accept principles of mathematics and/or physics without knowing the details of those principles. Those principles have even deeper underlying principles in calculus, quantam mechanics, etc. I get that. However, such matters pertain to this word in the here and now.
Religion applies to the things outside space and time. I just can’t apply that same level of thinking I do in other areas of life to religion (reason and faith, etc). You may say that “God is a mystery and we will never fully understand”…what if that is just a coping mechanism…and it’s all false?
So many religious people do not know the details of their own faith and I can’t comprehend why they still identify as such. There are just doing what works for them without full objective understanding.Catholic children receive first communion around age eight (I think). I doubt any of them are familiar with everything single thing in the Summa Theologica. Heck, not even I am. To fully understand the faith shouldn’t one read the Cathechism and its citations (not just the quotes, but the full works, and works quoted in that, and works quoted in that…etc), the Bible, correlate the Bible with ancient greek/hebrew/other Jewish texts, and then correlate those with others, and those with others…It’s impossible to understand EVERYTHING about religion…which has powerful claims.
I met Catholics that do not know the difference between Christ and the Trinity, think the Immaculate Conception is the Virgin Birth, etc, etc, etc…but they still go to Mass every Sunday, pray etc…they don’t know what they are doing. These things bother me.
Again…saying “God is a mystery and we will never know” does not suffice to me.
Yes our brains our small, why not use what mental energy we have to live this life without religion?
peace
Religion applies to the things outside space and time. I just can’t apply that same level of thinking I do in other areas of life to religion (reason and faith, etc). You may say that “God is a mystery and we will never fully understand”…what if that is just a coping mechanism…and it’s all false?
So many religious people do not know the details of their own faith and I can’t comprehend why they still identify as such. There are just doing what works for them without full objective understanding.Catholic children receive first communion around age eight (I think). I doubt any of them are familiar with everything single thing in the Summa Theologica. Heck, not even I am. To fully understand the faith shouldn’t one read the Cathechism and its citations (not just the quotes, but the full works, and works quoted in that, and works quoted in that…etc), the Bible, correlate the Bible with ancient greek/hebrew/other Jewish texts, and then correlate those with others, and those with others…It’s impossible to understand EVERYTHING about religion…which has powerful claims.
I met Catholics that do not know the difference between Christ and the Trinity, think the Immaculate Conception is the Virgin Birth, etc, etc, etc…but they still go to Mass every Sunday, pray etc…they don’t know what they are doing. These things bother me.
Again…saying “God is a mystery and we will never know” does not suffice to me.
Yes our brains our small, why not use what mental energy we have to live this life without religion?
peace
I
Incomplete
Guest
It might be all false. And it might be true. If it’s true, and you’re not striving to grow in God, where does that leave you? If it’s false and you “practice” religion, it does no harm. Now, that’s not a good reason in itself. But I’m saying this to you because you seem to have a fear of making a mistake. Yet either decision you make could be a mistake. Not “practicing” might be wrong.Religion applies to the things outside space and time. I just can’t apply that same level of thinking I do in other areas of life to religion (reason and faith, etc). You may say that “God is a mystery and we will never fully understand”…what if that is just a coping mechanism…and it’s all false?
So many religious people do not know the details of their own faith and I can’t comprehend why they still identify as such. There are just doing what works for them without full objective understanding.Catholic children receive first communion around age eight (I think). I doubt any of them are familiar with everything single thing in the Summa Theologica. Heck, not even I am. To fully understand the faith shouldn’t one read the Cathechism and its citations (not just the quotes, but the full works, and works quoted in that, and works quoted in that…etc), the Bible, correlate the Bible with ancient greek/hebrew/other Jewish texts, and then correlate those with others, and those with others…It’s impossible to understand EVERYTHING about religion…which has powerful claims.
I met Catholics that do not know the difference between Christ and the Trinity, think the Immaculate Conception is the Virgin Birth, etc, etc, etc…but they still go to Mass every Sunday, pray etc…they don’t know what they are doing. These things bother me.
Again…saying “God is a mystery and we will never know” does not suffice to me.
Yes our brains our small, why not use what mental energy we have to live this life without religion?
peace
You do not have to know every single detail to “practice” religion. Religion is to draw us closer to God, to love like He does. If you had to know every detail, what of those who are too young to know (and die too young) or those who are mentally handicapped? Does this mean God does not love them?
I’m not sure why you think a person needs to know every detail. Religion is a about a relationship. Just like your relationships with those in the hear and now, you don’t have to know every detail to have one.
I don’t know why you think it’s wrong to worship without understanding. I love my husband dearly, but after 22 years of marriage, I’m finding I still do not understand everything about him.
So, why is it so important to know every single detail before “practicing” a religion?
meltzerboy
New member
Do you know everything about medicine, your chosen field? No, since nobody does. It’s the process of learning and discovery that counts and makes the field worthwhile. The same is true for religon or any other subject matter. You might argue that religion is too important to make such a commitment without certainty. But you cannot have certainty at the start of your quest, only at the end, if even then. (I understand this bothers you.) When one goes on a journey, the destination is important but so are the sites along the way. Finally, the fact our brains are small should not deter us, because we can envision things beyond the capacity our brains have to comprehend. That’s the wonderful thing about our minds and the wonderful thing about our faith.I get what some of you are saying about “practicing” religion without knowing absolutely everything about it.This bothers me. True, in other areas of life we accept/do things without knowing everything. We love co certain people, and trust them without empirical evidence. When doing chemistry homework or working somehow as chemists, we accept principles of mathematics and/or physics without knowing the details of those principles. Those principles have even deeper underlying principles in calculus, quantam mechanics, etc. I get that. However, such matters pertain to this word in the here and now.
Religion applies to the things outside space and time. I just can’t apply that same level of thinking I do in other areas of life to religion (reason and faith, etc). You may say that “God is a mystery and we will never fully understand”…what if that is just a coping mechanism…and it’s all false?
So many religious people do not know the details of their own faith and I can’t comprehend why they still identify as such. There are just doing what works for them without full objective understanding.Catholic children receive first communion around age eight (I think). I doubt any of them are familiar with everything single thing in the Summa Theologica. Heck, not even I am. To fully understand the faith shouldn’t one read the Cathechism and its citations (not just the quotes, but the full works, and works quoted in that, and works quoted in that…etc), the Bible, correlate the Bible with ancient greek/hebrew/other Jewish texts, and then correlate those with others, and those with others…It’s impossible to understand EVERYTHING about religion…which has powerful claims.
I met Catholics that do not know the difference between Christ and the Trinity, think the Immaculate Conception is the Virgin Birth, etc, etc, etc…but they still go to Mass every Sunday, pray etc…they don’t know what they are doing. These things bother me.
Again…saying “God is a mystery and we will never know” does not suffice to me.
Yes our brains our small, why not use what mental energy we have to live this life without religion?
peace
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
OK.Do you know everything about medicine, your chosen field? No, since nobody does. It’s the process of learning and discovery that counts and makes the field worthwhile. The same is true for religon or any other subject matter. You might argue that religion is too important to make such a commitment without certainty. But you cannot have certainty at the start of your quest, only at the end, if even then. (I understand this bothers you.) When one goes on a journey, the destination is important but so are the sites along the way. Finally, the fact our brains are small should not deter us, because we can envision things beyond the capacity our brains have to comprehend. That’s the wonderful thing about our minds and the wonderful thing about our faith.
However, you are Jewish. Others here are Catholic, etc. They are on this thing called a “faith journey”. Currently, if I can somehow be convinced that Theism is the “correct” approach to God (if there is a God), I would be Catholic. Two different journeys. One of them must be wrong, or maybe both are wrong. Does this bother you or anyone else on here?
A reply like “God is a mystery each journey is a mystery only He can judge”…I can’t live with that.
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
Like I said, we do/accept things outside of religion without knowing everything about them: doing physics without knowing everything about math, trusting our loved ones, etc.It might be all false. And it might be true. If it’s true, and you’re not striving to grow in God, where does that leave you? If it’s false and you “practice” religion, it does no harm. Now, that’s not a good reason in itself. But I’m saying this to you because you seem to have a fear of making a mistake. Yet either decision you make could be a mistake. Not “practicing” might be wrong.
You do not have to know every single detail to “practice” religion. Religion is to draw us closer to God, to love like He does. If you had to know every detail, what of those who are too young to know (and die too young) or those who are mentally handicapped? Does this mean God does not love them?
I’m not sure why you think a person needs to know every detail. Religion is a about a relationship. Just like your relationships with those in the hear and now, you don’t have to know every detail to have one.
I don’t know why you think it’s wrong to worship without understanding. I love my husband dearly, but after 22 years of marriage, I’m finding I still do not understand everything about him.
So, why is it so important to know every single detail before “practicing” a religion?
Religion is different, it pertains to to matters that exist outside of time and space. For example, the Catholic Church claims that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. The Earth is a TINY TINY TINY TINY TINY blue dot in possibly some obscure corner of a corner of a corner of the Universe. For me, I just need to know everything before accepting such huge claims.
P
PathDiagnosis
Guest
I think one of things I’m afraid of is “giving in to” a possibly constructed need for religion and the feelings it provides. To the best of my knowledge/feelings, I feel I don’t need religion, I am just objectively/intellectually interested in it.
If I “practice” religion, I fear I will be giving into something I don’t need. Technically, we don’t need other things in life…but still…why add religion?
If I “practice” religion, I fear I will be giving into something I don’t need. Technically, we don’t need other things in life…but still…why add religion?
J
jmcrae
Guest
Primitive Man managed to live without electricity or gas, or even nylon, and he had not yet invented ice cream, yet he still felt the need for religion. One of the first uses he had for fire was to burn the sacrificial offering, and to create the vessels needed on the Altar - cooking actually came later.I think one of things I’m afraid of is “giving in to” a possibly constructed need for religion and the feelings it provides. To the best of my knowledge/feelings, I feel I don’t need religion, I am just objectively/intellectually interested in it.
If I “practice” religion, I fear I will be giving into something I don’t need. Technically, we don’t need other things in life…but still…why add religion?
Religion is a basic human need.
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