Why "practice" religion?

[PathDiagnosis]

Read your Bible. It did not take until 33 AD for either God or true religion to enter human history. He and it have been a part of human consciousness ever since the first man and woman were created. They didn’t come into the picture late at all.

The history of Christianity is a history of progressive revelation by God of Himself. Which makes sense.

A teacher imparting mathematical knowledge to a class of 5 year olds doesn’t start with complicated stuff like quadratic equations - they start with the basics, addition, subtraction and times tables.

So God started with the basics of His moral code with Adam and Eve - His existence, the existence of good and evil, the importance of heeding His warnings against evil and sin and its consequences. Then progressively, as humans became more intellectually capable, He added layers of the moral code. Not just more rules but more understanding of their purpose. Finally, the pinnacle of His revelation was Himself in the person of Christ Jesus, with His teachings about self-sacrifice, selfless love and service to others.

Doesn’t this sound rather “Deus ex Machina”? It might be true, but it could also be a means to justify Christianity.

 

[meltzerboy]

To me, the idea of God is like the possibility of life (in form of at least something akin to “civilization”) on other planets.

To me, religion is like saying life for sure exists on those planets and claiming they speak English, French, or Spanish etc. Too specific.

Does that analogy make sense? I hope.

Nice analogy. However, are you aware of the hypothesis regarding the multiverse, that is, the idea that there may be an infinite number of universes? According to this hypothesis–based on mathematics, string theory, and the concepts of dark energy and continuous inflation, but not on direct observation or hard empirical evidence–if there is virtually an infinitude of universes, then some of them might be very similar to our own, even identical parallel universes, while others are totally remote, with very different material composition and life forms. Therefore, on those planets within the multiverse that are nearly identical to our own, it may be that the languages are very near to those we speak on Earth. To be sure, this is all speculation, but nonetheless worth contemplating.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Nice analogy. However, are you aware of the hypothesis regarding the multiverse, that is, the idea that there may be an infinite number of universes? According to this hypothesis–based on mathematics, string theory, and the concepts of dark energy and continuous inflation, but not on direct observation or hard empirical evidence–if there is virtually an infinitude of universes, then some of them might be very similar to our own, even identical parallel universes, while others are totally remote, with very different material composition and life forms. Therefore, on those planets within the multiverse that are nearly identical to our own, it may be that the languages are very near to those we speak on Earth. To be sure, this is all speculation, but nonetheless worth contemplating.

Religion, and probably everything in life is worth contemplating. Thanks.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Religion, and probably everything in life is worth contemplating. Religion is probably speculation, too. Thanks.

 

[meltzerboy]

Read your Bible. It did not take until 33 AD for either God or true religion to enter human history. He and it have been a part of human consciousness ever since the first man and woman were created. They didn’t come into the picture late at all.

The history of Christianity is a history of progressive revelation by God of Himself. Which makes sense.

A teacher imparting mathematical knowledge to a class of 5 year olds doesn’t start with complicated stuff like quadratic equations - they start with the basics, addition, subtraction and times tables.

So God started with the basics of His moral code with Adam and Eve - His existence, the existence of good and evil, the importance of heeding His warnings against evil and sin and its consequences. Then progressively, as humans became more intellectually capable, He added layers of the moral code. Not just more rules but more understanding of their purpose. Finally, the pinnacle of His revelation was Himself in the person of Christ Jesus, with His teachings about self-sacrifice, selfless love and service to others.

However, I think Mormonism and Islam would both disagree concerning at what point in history revelation ceased. And for Quakerism, as well as the Reform branch of Judaism, the revelation of G-d is a continually individual process. A topic for another thread, perhaps. Nonetheless, even standing outside of Christianity, I like your explanation.

 

[PRmerger]

I can’t talk myself out of this position. The idea that it took until 33 AD (aprox.) in human history for the true religion to arrive (assuming Theism is true) doesn’t make sense to me.

This is not an accurate representation of Catholic theology, Path. We do not claim that “it took until 33 AD” for true religion to arrive.

Firstly, the ancient pagan myths that point to an Incarnation bear the shadows and hints of that Which Was to Come. And these shadows are ancient. From the beginning of human history, really.

Secondly, salvation is from the Jews. That, too, is Catholic theology (I’m surprised you did not know this, as you were in seminary, yes?) So from the beginnings of Judaism, near the beginnings of human history, we have the introduction of salvation way, way, way before 33 AD.

 

[PRmerger]

If there be some supreme being out there, so be it. However, religion is the reduction of that supreme being into extreme details: seven sacraments, etc, etc, etc.
Peace.

Again, it seems that your understanding of Catholic theology is quite lacking here.

Do you know what happens at the Divine Liturgy? Heaven and Earth crash together in a way that makes nuclear fission appear as child’s play.

As poet and author Annie Dillard states: “It is madness to wear ladies’ straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should all be wearing crash helmets. Ushers should issue life preservers and signal flares; they should lash us to our pews.”

At the sacraments, the universe is changed forever–at Baptism an indelible mark is placed on the soul and, as I stated, the universe is changed forever. Same thing with marriage, ordination, reconciliation. etc.

Sacraments being a “reduction”? As if.

Me thinks that you really have no clue what Catholicism is, years in the seminary nothwithstanding.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you. I will think about this. I get what you are saying: everything before Christ was preparation, etc. Another other religions peopled followed are/were false, etc.

So then, the truth is one of the following:

A.) All current religions, including Catholicism, are just a continuation of what humans have always been doing (see my previous posts).

B.) Catholicism is the final thing.

Thanks

The answer, as with most Catholic answers, is both/and. Not either/or.

I don’t see why it must be, as you say, “one of the following”.

Catholicism is the “final” thing, if by thing you mean “revelation of God”.

And, all current religions are indeed a continuation of that which has been placed in the human heart. Some are just more consonant with the truth than others.

 

[MontChevalier]

Perhaps Path needs a more historical view of the World and religion; especially Catholicism’s place in it. Is Path aware at how fortuitous the rise of Christianity was? The fact that this Religion from the Levant suddenly appeared and in a mere 200 years had become the dominant religion in the Roman Empire?

What about the fact that it was the Catholic Church that held the reigns of Western Society together during the Early Middle Ages (400-1000a.C.)? A pagan Frankish tribe from the Rhine would not have been able to build itself up into an Empire without the proper will to do so. Most of that will was placed into one Religion; Catholicism.

Could a pagan tribe truly stand against the Hordes of Islam, pouring in from the South? If you look closely at the Pagan tribes from Arabia, Persia, India, even North Africa and the heretical Arian nobility that controlled Spain at the time. Much has been done throughout history to just be some “continuation of paganry from the past.”

Here is a list of Catholic-Cleric Scientists who have been attributed to services to humanity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric%E2%80%93scientists

You’ll find philosophies, schools for the deaf, for the blind, you’ll sciences after sciences. Now imagine all of that gone. Even in China they lacked many of the things listed here; but that’s not for this conversation.

Can the world truly have existed today the way it is, had Christianity not existed? I think not. Technology would still be lacking and knowledge, lots of knowledge, from the Roman Empire would be gone. And Empires may rise and fall, but they would never measure up to anything like the Roman Empire or like what we have today.

-MontChevalier

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Again, it seems that your understanding of Catholic theology is quite lacking here.

Do you know what happens at the Divine Liturgy? Heaven and Earth crash together in a way that makes nuclear fission appear as child’s play.

As poet and author Annie Dillard states: “It is madness to wear ladies’ straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should all be wearing crash helmets. Ushers should issue life preservers and signal flares; they should lash us to our pews.”

At the sacraments, the universe is changed forever–at Baptism an indelible mark is placed on the soul and, as I stated, the universe is changed forever. Same thing with marriage, ordination, reconciliation. etc.

Sacraments being a “reduction”? As if.
**
Me thinks that you really have no clue what Catholicism is, years in the seminary nothwithstanding.**

I never attending divine liturgy and am only familiar with the Latin Rite (Ordinary and Extraordinary Form). I understand what you are saying. I know there are sections in the CCC that explain that everything before Catholicism is a “shadow” before Christ or something like that. ***I consider/considered that opinion, but it still seems like part of an invented religion. No other religion (to my knowledge) claims that, but that explanation itself could have evolved with religion and in proportion to everything else that evolved in human civilization. ***Religion sure is difficult to explain in words.

Response to the underlined:
I learned as much as I could before converting from Protestantism to Catholicism: pre-RCIA, RCIA, etc. Sorry if I don’t know as much as you. “No clue” means know knowledge. Based on my first response, does it seem to you I know nothing about Catholicism?
I venture to say I actually no more than the average Catholic about Catholicism. I’ve met Catholics don’t do not understand the relationship of Scripture and Tradition, etc.

Thanks.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Perhaps Path needs a more historical view of the World and religion; especially Catholicism’s place in it. Is Path aware at how fortuitous the rise of Christianity was? The fact that this Religion from the Levant suddenly appeared and in a mere 200 years had become the dominant religion in the Roman Empire?

What about the fact that it was the Catholic Church that held the reigns of Western Society together during the Early Middle Ages (400-1000a.C.)? A pagan Frankish tribe from the Rhine would not have been able to build itself up into an Empire without the proper will to do so. Most of that will was placed into one Religion; Catholicism.

Could a pagan tribe truly stand against the Hordes of Islam, pouring in from the South? If you look closely at the Pagan tribes from Arabia, Persia, India, even North Africa and the heretical Arian nobility that controlled Spain at the time. Much has been done throughout history to just be some “continuation of paganry from the past.”

Here is a list of Catholic-Cleric Scientists who have been attributed to services to humanity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric%E2%80%93scientists

You’ll find philosophies, schools for the deaf, for the blind, you’ll sciences after sciences. Now imagine all of that gone. Even in China they lacked many of the things listed here; but that’s not for this conversation.

Can the world truly have existed today the way it is, had Christianity not existed? I think not. Technology would still be lacking and knowledge, lots of knowledge, from the Roman Empire would be gone. And Empires may rise and fall, but they would never measure up to anything like the Roman Empire or like what we have today.

-MontChevalier

I don’t deny that Christianity, particularly Catholicism, is/was a positive force in the world, or at least Western Civilization. But, like I said before, this is probably why it is surviving for so long. It could be a continuation of the collective religious inventions of humans and be surviving due to non-biological natural selection.

Why point out Catholic scientists? I know who some of them are, including the one associated with the Big Bang theory. The Ancient Egyptians made some remarkable scientific discoveries (later rediscovered, etc) and they were not of the Judeo Christian traditions. Pointing out scientists that are religious is like saying you should jump off a cliff because this famous rock star did it too.

It’s things like these I am discerning before returning to any variation of Theism.
Peace

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Perhaps Path needs a more historical view of the World and religion; especially Catholicism’s place in it. Is Path aware at how fortuitous the rise of Christianity was? The fact that this Religion from the Levant suddenly appeared and in a mere 200 years had become the dominant religion in the Roman Empire?

What about the fact that it was the Catholic Church that held the reigns of Western Society together during the Early Middle Ages (400-1000a.C.)? A pagan Frankish tribe from the Rhine would not have been able to build itself up into an Empire without the proper will to do so. Most of that will was placed into one Religion; Catholicism.

Could a pagan tribe truly stand against the Hordes of Islam, pouring in from the South? If you look closely at the Pagan tribes from Arabia, Persia, India, even North Africa and the heretical Arian nobility that controlled Spain at the time. Much has been done throughout history to just be some “continuation of paganry from the past.”

Here is a list of Catholic-Cleric Scientists who have been attributed to services to humanity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric%E2%80%93scientists

You’ll find philosophies, schools for the deaf, for the blind, you’ll sciences after sciences. Now imagine all of that gone. Even in China they lacked many of the things listed here; but that’s not for this conversation.

Can the world truly have existed today the way it is, had Christianity not existed? I think not.** Technology would still be lacking and knowledge, lots of knowledge, from the Roman Empire would be gone. And Empires may rise and fall, but they would never measure up to anything like the Roman Empire or like what we have today.

-MontChevalier**

It might not. But, like I said, does that make Christianity God’s final revelation or a collective religious invention of human civilization that is surviving because of non-biological natural selection?

 

[Izdaari]

Hello,

I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?

---

Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?

---

The first thought that comes to mind is, we practice religion because we’re not very good at it, so we need lots of practice!

I am a Protestant Christian rather than Catholic or Orthodox, because that’s the tradition I was raised in. I actually believe all three are valid expressions of the Christian faith, and could possibly see myself converting to one of the other two. I’m not expecting to, just saying it’s possible.

But I’m not Christian because it fulfills some particular emotional need for me. I am Christian rather than agnostic or Zen/Taoist because I became convinced it was actually true, that the gospel story actually happened as described, and that Jesus really was God incarnate, come to reconcile us to Himself and to reveal more of the truth to us.

I mentioned Zen/Taoist because that’s what I was before I returned to the Christian faith. And, really, so far as my emotional needs, I was quite happy with it, and perhaps my life on earth would be just as good had I stayed on that path. However, my eternal destiny might not be so good.

 

[PRmerger]

PathDiagnosis:
I never attending divine liturgy and am only familiar with the Latin Rite (Ordinary and Extraordinary Form).

Path, the Divine Liturgy and the Latin Rite Mass are synonymous. Please see this reference from the Catechism:

The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the** Divine Liturgy **on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season. But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily. CCC1389

I learned as much as I could before converting from Protestantism to Catholicism: pre-RCIA, RCIA, etc. Sorry if I don’t know as much as you. “No clue” means know knowledge. Based on my first response, does it seem to you I know nothing about Catholicism?

The “no clue” is not meant to be taken literally.

Sadly, it’s quite clear that you are quite un-catechized. So it’s good for you to be here. Good for you to be asking questions. Kudos to you on that one!

I venture to say I actually no more than the average Catholic about Catholicism. I’ve met Catholics don’t do not understand the relationship of Scripture and Tradition, etc.

Thanks.

Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately, most Joe-Catholics-in-the-pews are abysmally ignorant about the faith. :doh2:

 

[GaryTaylor]

The first thought that comes to mind is, we practice religion because we’re not very good at it, so we need lots of practice!

But I’m not Christian because it fulfills some particular emotional need for me. I am Christian rather than agnostic or Zen/Taoist because I became convinced it was actually true, that the gospel story actually happened as described, and that Jesus really was God incarnate, come to reconcile us to Himself and to reveal more of the truth to us.

I mentioned Zen/Taoist because that’s what I was before I returned to the Christian faith. And, really, so far as my emotional needs, I was quite happy with it, and perhaps my life on earth would be just as good had I stayed on that path. However, my eternal destiny might not be so good.

Amen. practice leads to becoming proficient. As is anything else in life.

Whats happening with your emotional needs with Christianity? I get the impression you feel a lack as opposed to Zen/Taoist. IMHO, I believe this could work in unison, and enhance your emotional state. Not the total concept of Zen, but aspects of it correctly applied to Christianity. For example with a Contemplative/Meditative state, thus centering correctly on the Lord, then seeing reality in truth.

There are also just dry periods. The Lord isn’t a light-switch which can be turned on and off. Its His Will, His Grace.

IMHO without knowing how far you traveled on the path of Zen, I would speak to a Catholic Priest as a Spiriual advisor, and unless you have some pre-conceived notion about the Rosary or Catholicism, which is often a result of learned behavior. I would pray the Rosary daily, ask for nothing in return, make an honest effort at it for a year. And see what happens with spiritual/emotional needs as opposed to wants.

If you can open up you mind enough to trust Zen, then in truth there shouldn’t be a problem trusting the spiritual aspect of Catholicism.

For me most Buddists or followers of Zen, who deeply follow its spiritual path, I’ve found understand the mystical aspect of Catholicism, which is well documented.

Peace

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you. All of this sounds like what religion seems to be: verbosity/prose/poetic to give more meaning to life.

And why seek meaning, if we are nothing more than a random collection of cells that just happened to snap together at some point in evolutionary history, purely by happenstance?

 

[GaryTaylor]

At some point one must admit their knowledge doesn’t trump the CC. If I earned 10 more degree’s, combined with all the knowledge of the professor’s who taught me. I would still be “lacking” in comparison to the 2000 years of scholars and knowledge which combines to form the CC. In other words…the Mystical Body of Christ.

What I call the one whom knows everything?..GOD!

Peace

 

[Armyvet007]

Why “practice” religion?

I can learn Russian by just watching Russian movies and TV shows filmed during the 50s and 60s, doesn’t mean I will be able to converse intelligently and without linguistic error in Russian. Having a relationship/conversing with God without religion is like using the above method to learn Russian and proclaiming that I can speak it like a native Russian.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

Path, the Divine Liturgy and the Latin Rite Mass are synonymous. Please see this reference from the Catechism:

The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the** Divine Liturgy **on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season. But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily. CCC1389

The “no clue” is not meant to be taken literally.

Sadly, it’s quite clear that you are quite un-catechized. So it’s good for you to be here. Good for you to be asking questions. Kudos to you on that one!

Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately, most Joe-Catholics-in-the-pews are abysmally ignorant about the faith. :doh2:

Well, I before leaving Protestantism for Catholicism I knew enough to defend the Catholic Church (confession, Purgatory, Papacy, etc). I’m not saying I’m an expert, however.

 

[PathDiagnosis]

The answer, as with most Catholic answers, is both/and. Not either/or.

I don’t see why it must be, as you say, “one of the following”.

Catholicism is the “final” thing, if by thing you mean “revelation of God”.

And, all current religions are indeed a continuation of that which has been placed in the human heart. Some are just more consonant with the truth than others.

This bothers me. All current religions are either human inventions and a continuation of what humans have always been doing (see my comments about history and anthropology of religion, etc) or one of them is true, namely Catholicism.

---

This assumption that all other myths/religions are a “continuation of what has been placed in the human heart (not the physical organ)” seems like an "excuse’.***

Please, someone provide an opinion besides this to my concern that all religions are just human inventions as seen throughout history.