Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

[Filioque]

[Why take a chance that your prayers are not being heard? The verses given to say that saints pray for us in heaven are not very specific.

There is no doubt that Jesus hears our prayers. Why not just pray to Jesus then? If you ask another christian on earth to pray for you, then you also know that Jesus will hear their prayers too. There is no doubt.

Now I think you are in danger on a biblical proportion. First assuming that any Catholic, myself included does not take my prayer to God the Father in Jesus’ name or to Jesus directly. Secondly, it sounds very anti-biblical that you are making assumptions which may be a direct violation of the prohibition against false witness against your neighbors.

As for me and my household, I will choose Christ Jesus. But not the Christ Jesus who was invented in the 16th Century and after by those who threw out what was hard for them to believe. No I choose the Jesus who really did the following.

Commanded that we chew on His body and drink His Blood.

Commanded that we make Anmensis of His Sacrifice, (not just a simple rememberence of a supper)

Commanded that we preach His good news to the ends of the earth, and Baptize all nations.

Had the authority to forgive sins, and then laid hands on select men, (Apostles) and then breathed on them, giving them that same authority.

Had all authority given to Him by the Father, and then gave that authority, (keys) to Simon who He renamed Kephas.

Who spoke to us through St. Paul, who admonished us to keep fast to the traditions he had given them in Writing And Word. Either what was handed down from the time of the Apostles is true, or as in Protestantism, we reject the traditions handed down and ignore history (including the petitioning of Saints,) and either limiting or rejecting them as members of the Body of Christ, and re-invent what Jesus gave the Apostles for ourselves, isolated from all others who have gone before us as various competing sects of Protestantism does…

The Jesus who called Himself, the Way the Truth and the Life; and Teaches us in the Scriptures which His Church defined, tjat the Church is the Pillar and Bulkworth of the Truth. Either He spoke in error, or both are the truth.

If we must prove all things are permitted by the standards you seem to hold us, but not yourself to, then we see nothing about printing presses, automobiles, telephones or computers in the Bible, we reduce God and His authority to our individual opinion, rather than following and trusting in what He told us, and left us for our spiritual safeguard.

Jesus it would seem gave authority to the Apostles, and the NT tells us to be obedient to our leaders. St. Paul stresses this when he asserts the authority of those he laid hands on. But it seems you want us to reject that, and take you on your word because you can’t find something in the edited Bible you have.

I choose Christ, and stand with His entire Body of Christ, here on earth, in Purgatory and in Heaven.
[/quote]

 

[hu324b]

You are proclaiming everyone is dead in Christ - your words these people are dead.

We proclaim they are all alive in Christ.

 

[in_servitude]

I have some questions, then.

What is the point of asking someone else to pray for you?

What is the point of praying for another person?

Does God desire that we pray for one another on Earth?

Is it selfish to restrict our prayers to one’s own intentions?

Do you expect that, God willing, once you are in Heaven after this journey on Earth, that you will pray for your loved ones? Will you pray for your grand children? And, their grand children?

My questions are about our God-given communal living conditions that have been created for us.

I’d like to add more questions to this list of questions. You seem to say that unless the Bible permits/endorses prayer in a certain way, it must necessarily be avoided.

Is it okay to pray in a restaurant before your meal? If so, why is that okay?

Is it okay to pray at church? If so, why is that okay?

Matthew Ch 6 discusses this issue:

5 “When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. 7 In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

If I read this correctly, then you can only pray in your inner room. No exceptions.

 

[pablope]

I know that Catholics claim they aren’t praying to saints, they say they are asking the saints to pray for them.

Whether you want to call it praying or asking, it is some form of communication.

I’ll rephrase it for you then. Why don’t catholics just pray to Jesus instead of communicating to saints to pray for them?

It is rooted in our Jewish roots.

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

And check this thread out too:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11012687#post11012687

Since the ancients understood their lowlinness in relation to God much better than we do, they naturally were attracted to the 100% human mother, whereby Christ could be accessed through her compassion and lowliness. Men knew they were lowly and unworthy. Mary was a human being, sharing in our lowliness. Yet she was also the Mother of God, and she had her son’s ear! Thus, many were instinctively drawn to approach God through His mother.

Today, man is arrogant. We don’t understand our own unworthiness in relation to God. Thus, for many, praying through Mary to Christ is not intuitive. But to men of the 1st and 2nd centuries, and later, it was just common sense. This Tradition has been handed on for 2000 years. But that is why Protestants don’t don’t “get it”, because their theology and spiritual practices have their roots in the 15th century, rather than in the ancient Traditions of The Church

 

[rfournier103]

I haven’t seen a verse that says angels pray. An angel of a child sees the face of God, but it never says prayer.

Satan spoke with God, so **I’ll make a speculation which is my opinion **that angels speak to God as well, but speaking to God doesn’t mean someone is praying to God for something. The angels could just receive commands from God, because God doesn’t need angels to tell him what is happening he already knows what is happening.

As you are admittedly speculating; how can you tell us we’re wrong, if you don’t know yourself?

Go ask the question in a protestant forum and see what replies you get.

We really can’t do that since most Protestant forums don’t accept Catholic Christians as members. THIS forum, however, allows anyone to join. You’ve clearly come here to debate us; but Protestant forums refuse to allow us to defend the Faith. Pretty one-sided and petty if you ask me (I know you didn’t, but now you know).

Asking someone to pray for us on earth isn’t the same thing as asking a person in heaven to pray for us. I said Jesus can handle all our prayers, which includes people on earth that pray for us. People in heaven do not hear us.

How in the world do you know that?

Of course he can.

The problem is that you grow weary and do not pray without ceasing. The saints, on the other hand, can intercede for you without needing a nap.

Additionally, since they are already in heaven, they are truly righteous, and the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

All in all, I think you benefit by having these powerful prayer partners in your corner.

Mark 12:27 ~ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

How would you know, you don’t even know what church I go to. Anyways that’s off topic.

True. It IS off topic… If you’re afraid to tell us about your particular ecclesiastical community, that’s fine. I’d like to think that none of the Catholics here would ever be ashamed of admitting that they belong to Christ’s Church founded 2000 years ago.

I’m sure they are aware they are carrying prayers, but it doesn’t mention anything about them hearing our prayers then praying for us.

Really ??

It seems you are saying they are involved but clueless. How bizarre

Maybe tacdon is saying that the angels are aware that they’re carrying prayers; but aren’t privy to what the prayers say - like some kind of heavenly postal service? The mailman doesn’t read our letters before he delivers them, right?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

It’s clear to me, tacdon that no matter what rebuttal we make you will insist that we are wrong. It is also clear that whatever “church” you belong to clearly is at odds with Catholic theology and you’ve chosen to debate us here. That’s fine too. This topic can go round-and-round for weeks with us rebutting your claim that intercessory prayer is wrong; and you not being satisfied with our answers.

The Church is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim. 3:15), and Christ has preserved her and her teachings through the millennia. These teachings include intercessory prayer.

See ya 'round.

 

[CarolNoel]

I am finding this thread very interesting. Want to thank all of you for your great answers. Too bad Tacdon isn’t listening.

 

[tacdon]

A Jewish practice…not a Christian one.Luke 1:[21] And after eight days were accomplished, that the child should be circumcised, his name was called JESUS, which was called by the angel, before he was conceived in the womb.Except that we all can witness to the fact of many multitudes of answered prayers. No…we don’t take chances.

You didn’t prove anything.

 

[tacdon]

No, no it’s not. You can get to TWO Divine Persons, the Father and the Son. But nowhere does it actually say the Holy Spirit is a third Person, as opposed to just being the spirit of God interacting with the universe.

Then shouldn’t you logically object to some psalms? For instance, look at Psalm 103:20

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, / you mighty ones who do his word, / hearkening to the voice of his word!”

That would be praying to the angels, telling them to join you in praising the Lord.

(Although I currently really wish Luther hadn’t taken out the Song of the Three Children from Daniel 3. Otherwise I just would have used that)

You don’t believe in the trinity?

 

[Razanir]

You don’t believe in the trinity?

:doh2: No, I do. I was just refuting your claim that the Bible calls the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity. I don’t doubt that the Holy Spirit is God. I was just trying to tell you that it’s not explicitly stated in the Bible as you claim.

Also, what about my quote from Psalms?

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, / you mighty ones who do his word, / hearkening to the voice of his word!” Ps 103:20

That’s praying to the angels, something you claim the Bible is adamantly against.

 

[tacdon]

:doh2: No, I do. I was just refuting your claim that the Bible calls the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity. I don’t doubt that the Holy Spirit is God. I was just trying to tell you that it’s not explicitly stated in the Bible as you claim.

Also, what about my quote from Psalms?

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, / you mighty ones who do his word, / hearkening to the voice of his word!” Ps 103:20

That’s praying to the angels, something you claim the Bible is adamantly against.

How is that praying to the angels? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Razanir]

How is that praying to the angels? That doesn’t make any sense.

Okay, how would you define prayer? I know I, at least, would call that verse praying to the angels, seeing as it’s talking to someone in Heaven.

 

[in_servitude]

I’d like to add more questions to this list of questions. You seem to say that unless the Bible permits/endorses prayer in a certain way, it must necessarily be avoided.

Is it okay to pray in a restaurant before your meal? If so, why is that okay?

Is it okay to pray at church? If so, why is that okay?

Matthew Ch 6 discusses this issue:

5 “When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. 7 In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Is there any chance you could take the time to answer my questions?