There is no scripture that says scripture proves everything.I can prove it by the fact that you can’t provide scripture that does prove they hear are prayers.
What traditions are you speaking of? How would you know, you don’t even know what church I go to. Anyways that’s off topic.There is no scripture that says scripture proves everything.
We have the church.
Even your own tradition has tons of man made traditions not found in scripture…anywhere. Of course you have no problem with those right!
Are your arguments along the lines of “I know you are but what am I”.You have provided nothing that says people in heaven can hear our prayers.
Asking those who have gone before us for their prayers is an ancient practice. Examples can be found in the catacombs as well as the writings of the Early Fathers. This is a part of the doctrine of the communion of saints. The saints in heaven are not worshipped or thought to have any power in and of themselves. They are merely asked to pray for and with us. We believe they can do this in part because of what we read in Scripture. We know that those in heaven care for us (Luke 15:7). We also know that they present our prayers to Jesus (Revelation 5:8). Finally we see that they add their own prayers to ours (Revelation 8:3-4).
Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels… as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).
Pectorius
Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).
Cyprian
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).
Anonymous
Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
Anonymous
Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).
Cyril of Jerusalem
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition… (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Anonymous
Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Hilary of Poitiers
To those who would wish to stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
Ephraem of Syria
Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (De Timore, Anim. in fin. [A.D. 370]).
Liturgy of St. Basil
By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).
Gregory Nazianzen
Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]).
May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand (Orations 17 [24] [A.D. 376]),
Gregory of Nyssa
Do you, [Ephraem] that art standing at the divine altar . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom (Sermon on Ephraem the Syrian [A.D. 380]).
Ambrose of Milan
May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance (Hexameron 5:25:90 [A.D. 388]).
John Chrysostom
He that wears the purple . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).
When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God] (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).
Augustine
A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
Jerome
You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).
I could guess but if you want to tell me your denomination I can be far more specific.What traditions are you speaking of? How would you know, you don’t even know what church I go to. Anyways that’s off topic.
None of the verses say they HEAR our prayers. There are verses of them carrying bowls of prayers, but there are no verses that say they hear our prayers.Are your arguments along the lines of “I know you are but what am I”.
We have given you countless verses, if you choose to reject scripture them that’s on you.
I also hold highly the Early Church Fathers who said;
Really ??None of the verses say they HEAR our prayers. There are verses of them carrying bowls of prayers, but there are no verses that say they hear our prayers.
Baby dedication. Jesus’s parents brought him to the temple as a babyI could guess but if you want to tell me your denomination I can be far more specific.
I will throw out baby dedication for one
Salvation by faith alone, two
And the bible as sole authority, 3
I’m sure they are aware they are carrying prayers, but it doesn’t mention anything about them hearing our prayers then praying for us.Really ??
It seems you are saying they are involved but clueless. How bizarre
My simple understanding of intercessory prayer is paralleled to the process of becoming professional. For example, consider a person becoming a professional basketball player. When the person first begins learning basketball, although s/he may accept Michael Jordan as the current pinnacle of basketball playing, s/he does not primarily focus on the professional teachings and talents of MJ. Instead, s/he may focus on the teachings and talents of an interceding player, such as a recreational youth b-ball coach, followed by a high school coach, then a college coach, then a professional coach. Once s/he has attained talents and understandings near the level of MJ, s/he can truly explore the understandings and talents of MJ.What is the point of praying to anyone but Jesus? Jesus can handle all our prayers
Lots of Bible verses say the people in heaven can hear our prayers.None of the verses say they HEAR our prayers. There are verses of them carrying bowls of prayers, but there are no verses that say they hear our prayers.
Jesus was taken to the temple for circumcision. Nice try.Baby dedication. Jesus’s parents brought him to the temple as a baby
Nothing you provided proves they hear our prayers.Lots of Bible verses say the people in heaven can hear our prayers.
Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10 - “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. … Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Hebrews 12:1 - “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses…”
Revelation 18:20 - “Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets.”
Revelation 5:13-14 - “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, ‘To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!’ And the four living creatures said, ‘Amen!’ and the elders fell down and worshiped.”
How did the elders and angels in heaven reply “amen” if they couldn’t hear what every creature on earth had said? How did they say the middle part of those verses in unison with the people “on earth” if the ones in heaven couldn’t hear what the ones on earth were saying? How can they not hear our prayers if Revelation 5:8 says they carry them before God? I think Scripture is pretty clear that the people in heaven can hear us, and that supports what Catholics do by praying to them.
Well if Jesus already has all our prayers I see no point in them carrying bowls of our prayers to JesusI’m sure they are aware they are carrying prayers, but it doesn’t mention anything about them hearing our prayers then praying for us.
Let’s go through them one by one. Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10 - “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. … Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” I think this passage teaches that they can hear our prayers because it says they react to them. Do you see how I can get that out of there?Nothing you provided proves they hear our prayers.
Give me the verse that says he was taken there for circumcision.Jesus was taken to the temple for circumcision. Nice try.
It still doesn’t say that people in heaven hear us asking to pray for them.Let’s go through them one by one. Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10 - “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. … Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” I think this passage teaches that they can hear our prayers because it says they react to them. Do you see how I can get that out of there?
Do you deny the Trinity the bible also doesn’t say that. There is far more evidence for the Saints hearing us than for the Trinity.It still doesn’t say that people in heaven hear us asking to pray for them.
I don’t deny the Trinity. The word Trinity isn’t in the bible, but the description of God being 3 in 1 is.Do you deny the Trinity the bible also doesn’t say that. There is far more evidence for the Saints hearing us than for the Trinity.
How old are you? I am guessing about 12.
The words “saints hear our prayers” is not in the Bible, but the description of them hearing reacting and presenting them is.I don’t deny the Trinity. The word Trinity isn’t in the bible, but the description of God being 3 in 1 is.
Yes I know that the use of saints here is in reference to the people on Earth, but that’s not the point, if you read the passage carefully you’ll note that the prayers, here represented as incense, are being gathered by an Angel and being handed to God, read the last phrase, it says that the prayers of the saints, are handed to God from the hands of an Angel, why?Shouldn’t they just go directly to God?Its talking about the saints who are alive on earth, not the ones in heaven.