Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tacdon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
KP3243 said:
Again the Archangel Raphael presents Tobit’s prayers before the Throne of God, Raphael also says something that doesn’t come up in scripture again until the Book of Revelation, Revelation 8:2, Raphael says he is one of the 7 angels who serve before the Throne of God, Revelation affirms this.
Click to expand...
Excellent scriptural reference. The point here is that no protestant authority has ever definitively ruled one way or the other on Tobit or any of the Deuteroncanonical books. Why? First, they have no authority to do so and second, they are so completely fragmented that they cannot ever know if those books are canonical or not. The Catholic (and Orthodox) Church does know about those seven books and has no such problem in their theology.

I find it amazingly ironic that those who live by scripture alone also settle for far less scripture than either Church that traces directly back to Christ.
 
tacdon said:
Well if I didn’t mean it clear, I believe that the saints in heaven are so very alive, but I believe there bodies are so very dead laying in a grave as we speak.
Click to expand...
Almost all of them with the exception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Elijah and Enoch who have their bodies in heaven. And?
 
KP3243 said:
Do you honestly think pure spirits are holding man made bowls in Heaven? Come on man!
Click to expand...
So, some angels are in God’s constant presence, not praying?

I don’t think I’ve ever come across with a situation where someone thinks angels don’t pray (I mean a believer).
 
tacdon said:
Well if I didn’t mean it clear, I believe that the saints in heaven are so very alive, but I believe there bodies are so very dead laying in a grave as we speak.
Click to expand...
Oh you made it crystal clear you said a dead person in heaven and said nothing of a dead body laying in a grave. It’s ok I understand now that you’ve changed your position.
 
KP3243 said:
Do you honestly think pure spirits are holding man made bowls in Heaven? Come on man!
Click to expand...
No I never said that. I don’t believe they are holding man made bowls. There are bowls that are in heaven and I guess God made those bowls.
 
ClearWater said:
So, some angels are in God’s constant presence, not praying?

I don’t think I’ve ever come across with a situation where someone thinks angels don’t pray.
Click to expand...
They are all the time. A bowl is a man man thing and is clearly a metaphor. It means that our prayers are heard and treated with much love and care, they aren’t tossed aside and true humble prayer is like sweet incense to God.
 
ClearWater said:
So, some angels are in God’s constant presence, not praying?

I don’t think I’ve ever come across with a situation where someone thinks angels don’t pray (I mean a believer).
Click to expand...
Go ask the question in a protestant forum and see what replies you get. I have not seen one verse that clearly without any doubt says angels pray.
 
WordHeavy said:
Oh you made it crystal clear you said a dead person in heaven and said nothing of a dead body laying in a grave. It’s ok I understand now that you’ve changed your position.
Click to expand...
Position is the same, just defining what I meant.
 
tacdon said:
The angel did not pray. Carrying bowls is not praying.
Click to expand...
If you want to limit, yourself, God and prayer that’s fine. But prayer is a verb, an action. An action which includes, Adoration, Petition, and Thanksgiving. It can be done kneeling, walking, and upon one’s bed. Actions like the use of incense preformed in the Temple in the days of the Old Law, as well as in the homes of the Children of Israel, so too in the Church and in the homes of the Faithful even today. While use in the home is more common in Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Catholic homes it is of ancient origins as part of prayer. While you are not accustomed to it, after Protestantism ejected it along with inspired books of the Bible, and other teachings and practices the Apostles received from Jesus is sad, but there are many who do want to follow the 16th Century re-invention of Christianity.

The other problem is you seem to be treating the Scriptures not just out of historical context, but as if it was written in English, and modern English at that. For the word pray has been used and continues to be used as more than a petition to God alone even over the past three hundred years in English. So some reflection on the cultural, religious and historical context is in which it was written is important.
 
tacdon said:
You’re trying to make the point that is why we need one church. The Catholic church in its 2000 years or so of existence hasn’t proven that Peter was the first pope.

Peter was a Jew. How many Jewish popes other than Peter has there been? If it was so important Peter would of wrote in a book who his successor was.
Click to expand...
Your first mistake is thinking that we are supposed to be separate from our Jewish brothers and sisters in God’s eyes we are supposed to be one. Go back to 1st century Israel, how many people could read and write? Not many, oral tradition was huge with the ancients, as you can see when Jesus meets the Samaritan woman at the well, whose well is it, Jacob’s who lived 1000s of years before. Not for anything all the so called scripture scholars like Nichodemus and Saint Paul couldn’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah right away, but the simple minds like Peter could.
 
tacdon said:
You’re going back to that is why we need one church.

The Catholic church does not have the historical evidence to prove who Peter’s successor was. The Catholic church also can’t prove from scripture that Peter was the first pope. The catholic church also can not prove that Jesus built the church on Peter. They might give some verses, but those verses are misinterpreted.
Click to expand...
It’s been fun, but now you are out of ammo and just spewing ad hominem. All the best to you, brother. Keep seeking the truth.
 
tacdon said:
You’re going back to that is why we need one church.

The Catholic church does not have the historical evidence to prove who Peter’s successor was. The Catholic church also can’t prove from scripture that Peter was the first pope. The catholic church also can not prove that Jesus built the church on Peter. They might give some verses, but those verses are misinterpreted.
Click to expand...
According to you, I should take your word for it?

I should disregard 2,000 years of countless writings for your opinion?

I should deny the power of the Holy Spirit to maintain the teachings of Christ (John 14)?

Seriously?

But you apparently believe Matt 18 has no bearing on our lives, Jesus was stupid for saying it because no one uses it, and no can get resolution to our problems.

If I was Lutheran MS and my wife was Lutheran ELCA, and she wanted to murder our unborn child by abortion, I would go to my church and they would tell her she could not do that, and she would go to her church and they would say it is her right to choose and our child would be killed.

Thanks a lot everyone who fractured the church into anything goes factions, of which you are trying to advocate
 
KP3243 said:
Your first mistake is thinking that we are supposed to be separate from our Jewish brothers and sisters in God’s eyes we are supposed to be one.
Click to expand...
Christianity is a Jewish religion. Jesus was “sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The twelve were all Hebrews, as were the first 8,000 adherents (Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4). A reading of Romans 11 reveals that we gentiles have been grafted into the Jewish vine, but it is all the easier for God to graft the natural branches back in.
 
Jon_S said:
According to you, I should take your word for it?

I should disregard 2,000 years of countless writings for your opinion?

I should deny the power of the Holy Spirit to maintain the teachings of Christ (John 14)?

Seriously?

But you apparently believe Matt 18 has no bearing on our lives, Jesus was stupid for saying it because no one uses it, and no can get resolution to our problems.

If I was Lutheran MS and my wife was Lutheran ELCA, and she wanted to murder our unborn child by abortion, I would go to my church and they would tell her she could not do that, and she would go to her church and they would say it is her right to choose and our child would be killed.

Thanks a lot everyone who fractured the church into anything goes factions, of which you are trying to advocate
Click to expand...
Abortion is wrong and any church who says different is wrong.
 
tacdon said:
Abortion is wrong and any church who says different is wrong.
Click to expand...
The people in those churches would disagree. They use scripture alone too.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a church that Christ left us to definitively say it is wrong…wait he did do that. He did not leave us a single printed word, instead choosing to leave us a living voice of authority, the church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top