Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

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Jon_S said:
What’s the difference?
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The difference is it never says the angel was praying. The difference is the angel was offering the prayers, which means giving the prayers. What the means who knows. It could mean that the angel was carrying the prayers.
 
tacdon said:
What is the point of praying to anyone but Jesus? Jesus can handle all our prayers
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Humility. Are you so confident you please The Lord in all you do that you can just talk to him like you do anyone else? If He physically was standing in front of you, your face would be on the floor. When we ask blessed mother to intercede for us, she takes our prayers which are usually pitiful and presents them to Jesus in a manner that is void our self love and makes our prayers pleasing and acceptable to Him.
 
tacdon said:
The difference is it never says the angel was praying. The difference is the angel was offering the prayers, which means giving the prayers. What the means who knows. It could mean that the angel was carrying the prayers.
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You don’t believe angels pray?
 
ClearWater said:
You don’t believe angels pray?
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I haven’t seen a verse that says angels pray. An angel of a child sees the face of God, but it never says prayer.

Satan spoke with God, so I’ll make a speculation which is my opinion that angels speak to God as well, but speaking to God doesn’t mean someone is praying to God for something. The angels could just receive commands from God, because God doesn’t need angels to tell him what is happening he already knows what is happening.
 
tacdon said:
The difference is it never says the angel was praying. The difference is the angel was offering the prayers, which means giving the prayers. What the means who knows. It could mean that the angel was carrying the prayers.
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Like he wrote the prayers on little papers or something and carried them to God?

Lol!

Wonder why that is necessary when we can pray straight to God!

It seems as if you have created a very absurd scenario to not admit your wrong. I see Protestants do this a lot. They dig themselves in a hole and rather than saying ok pull me out your right, they dig the hole deeper and come up with some extra biblical speculation that is far more speculative and ungrounded than any catholic teaching.
 
tacdon said:
How do I know that saints also means people on earth? I know it from reading the verses with the word saint in it and understanding the context around it. Also, protestants believe saints also mean Christians on earth. Even though I’m sure you don’t care what the protestant definition on saint is.

Where does the bible say there will be additional revelation? Are you going to give me the verse in John that is talking about the Holy Spirit? That verse is referring to the holy spirit coming and those new revelations are in the rest of the new testament.
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Catholics hold both public revelation which ended with the Apostles that man must believe in order to be saved and in private revelation that you can choose to believe or not to believe. The Church goes to extraordinary lengths when private revelation might have occurred and it usually takes a long time to be approved. The most recent approved apparitions are Our Lord’s revelation to Saint Faustina about Divine Mercy and Our Lady of Fatima. We are not yet permitted to believe in the apparitions at Medjugorje until they have been officially cleared by the Vatican, I am not even sure we are allowed to discuss them on this forum.
 
tacdon said:
That doesn’t have anything to do with an apostle praying to a dead person in heaven.
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A dead person in heaven. Wow as per Christian belief those who are in heaven are more alive than us.
 
tacdon said:
I haven’t seen a verse that says angels pray. An angel of a child sees the face of God, but it never says prayer.

Satan spoke with God, so I’ll make a speculation which is my opinion that angels speak to God as well, but speaking to God doesn’t mean someone is praying to God for something. The angels could just receive commands from God, because God doesn’t need angels to tell him what is happening he already knows what is happening.
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Saint Raphael in the Book of Tobit offers Tobit’s supplications before the glory of The Lord.
 
Iron_Donkey said:
Doesn’t the fact that different people could interpret the verses in such drastically different ways on such important issues bother you? We’re talking about salvation of souls here. The options are a) God instituted sola scriptura, and either didn’t realize or didn’t care that people living according to it would definitely end up believing things that jeopardize their salvation, or b) God didn’t institute sola scriptura.

That is, the mere fact that an honest back and forth fails to resolve the issue demonstrates that the system in faulty. A house built on sand, if you will. And I don’t particularly remember Jesus being all that complimentary about houses built on sand.
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Or perhaps c) The differences in detail regarding your belief have little to do with your salvation compared to your acts of kindness?
 
tacdon said:
I haven’t seen a verse that says angels pray. An angel of a child sees the face of God, but it never says prayer.

Satan spoke with God, so I’ll make a speculation which is my opinion that angels speak to God as well, but speaking to God doesn’t mean someone is praying to God for something. The angels could just receive commands from God, because God doesn’t need angels to tell him what is happening he already knows what is happening.
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What is a prayer other than asking for something?

Zechariah 1:12 Then the angel of the LORD said, `O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?’

Tobit 12:12a,15 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; . . . I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

Revelation 1:4 . . . Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
 
Jon_S said:
Like he wrote the prayers on little papers or something and carried them to God?

Lol!

Wonder why that is necessary when we can pray straight to God!

It seems as if you have created a very absurd scenario to not admit your wrong. I see Protestants do this a lot. They dig themselves in a hole and rather than saying ok pull me out your right, they dig the hole deeper and come up with some extra biblical speculation that is far more speculative and ungrounded than any catholic teaching.
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The bible called the prayers incense. Was it really incense like smoke or was it something different?

The writer of revelation was looking into the spiritual real and to the best of his ability he described the prayers as incense.

How could smoke be in a bowl, wouldn’t the smoke flow upwards and leave the bowl?

What I get from the verses is that an angel physically took bowls that were filled with prayers and then laid those bowls in front of Jesus.
 
tacdon said:
The bible called the prayers incense. Was it really incense like smoke or was it something different?

The writer of revelation was looking into the spiritual real and to the best of his ability he described the prayers as incense.

How could smoke be in a bowl, wouldn’t the smoke flow upwards and leave the bowl?

What I get from the verses is that an angel physically took bowls that were filled with prayers and then laid those bowls in front of Jesus.
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And thus the angel interceded.

And yes they used bowls of incense which burns and creates smoke, we do it at mass all the time. Just like the Bible describes.
 
Again the Archangel Raphael presents Tobit’s prayers before the Throne of God, Raphael also says something that doesn’t come up in scripture again until the Book of Revelation, Revelation 8:2, Raphael says he is one of the 7 angels who serve before the Throne of God, Revelation affirms this.
 
tacdon said:
I don’t consider that book to be in the bible. Its not in the protestant bible.
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Tobit is one of the seven books which Protestants omit from the Bible. But if you pay close attention, you’ll see that the New Testament proves Tobit to be prophetic. If you’re not familiar with the book, the short version is that the Archangel Raphael appears to Tobit disguised as a man. Eventually, he reveals himself in Tobit 12:15, saying,
“I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”
Three verses prior, he explained that, “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayers before the Glory of the Lord.” This is prophetic in at least two ways:
Look to how Gabriel introduces himself in Luke 1:19. He begins:
“I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God.”
It’s a remarkably similar structure: the angel’s identity is defined by his standing before the Presence and Glory of the Lord. So Raphael is talking like an angel. But if this is uninspired Apocrypha, how would the writer know how angels described themselves? Tobit is the first example we have of this. It isn’t like the author of Tobit was just mimicking the Old Testament.

Raphael describes himself as one of seven angels ministering before the Lord. Nothing in Scripture up to this point says anything of the sort: Raphael is the first to reveal this. Yet the Book of Revelation affirms this: yes, there are seven angels who serve before the Throne of God (Revelation 8:2). Again, if Tobit is Apocrypha, how the heck did the author know the most intimate details about the Throne of God in Heaven, when they hadn’t been revealed previously?
 
Jon_S said:
And thus the angel interceded.

And yes they used bowls of incense which burns and creates smoke, we do it at mass all the time. Just like the Bible describes.
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The angel did not pray. Carrying bowls is not praying.
 
KP3243 said:
Again the Archangel Raphael presents Tobit’s prayers before the Throne of God, Raphael also says something that doesn’t come up in scripture again until the Book of Revelation, Revelation 8:2, Raphael says he is one of the 7 angels who serve before the Throne of God, Revelation affirms this.
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Tacdon doesn’t accept the Book of Tobit as part of scripture.

Had anyone ever noticed that the Protestant Bible has the 66 books? Well, it’s just that 6 is associated with a bunch of things, not generally good. Whereas the Catholic Bible has 73 books, and 7 and 3 are associated with a lot of opposite things? Could be trying to tell us something here.

I’m not saying we need to get rid of the number 6, skip over it, but when it’s on one’s bible, twice, it is enough to give one pause. 😉

Yeah, there does seem to be a sort of foreshadowing throughout scripture, doesn’t there?
 
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