Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

[Robyn_p]

Why didn’t any of the apostles pray to saints in heaven?

The Bible doesn’t record them doing that, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t, or that they objected to it. Maybe they really never did pray to a saint, who knows. But that doesn’t therefore make it wrong. It also never records them singing or using instruments during church services. But it’s not wrong to do that. In fact, it’s good.

You are right in that Jesus doesn’t really need the prayers of the saints. He doesn’t really need my own prayers either. But he wants us to pray for each other. Why? I don’t really know. For whatever reason, He seems to like letting us human beings be his instruments of grace. I see no reason why that would cease in heaven.

 

[Psalitte]

You never read about Paul or anyone in the bible asking any saints in heaven to pray for them either.

From the Apocalypse:

“2 And I saw seven angels standing in the presence of God; and there were given to them seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.
4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”

 

[Robyn_p]

Catholics do not pray to Saints or to Mary but rather they ask the Saints and Mary to pray to Jesus for them. Whereas Jesus, whom Christians believe to be G-d, is a mediator to G-d the Father, the Saints are intercessors to Jesus.

Hey Meltzerboy, I’m curious, does Judaism have or did it ever have any belief in the intercession of the saints? Or something similar?

I ask because the 2nd book of Maccabees has a scene where the prophet Jeremiah is seen in heaven praying for the Jewish soldiers, so it made me wonder if this was a common belief in Judaism.

 

[ClearWater]

What is the point of praying to anyone but Jesus? Jesus can handle all our prayers

Do you ever ask anyone to pray for you? Normally, the more, the better, when it comes to having others praying for us, right? Well, that’s how many of us feel. We call this “intercessory prayer”. Now, why do you bother to ask anyone to ever pray on your behalf? Why not go directly to the “man upstairs” without any mediators or intermediaries like you say?

We say prayer as communication, one thing.

We Catholics believe that when we die, we continue to live. Recall scripture that God says he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are** ALIVE**. So, we believe in the same way that I can ask you to pray for me, or you can ask me to pray for you, we can ask those who have gone before us to pray for us. We believe they can hear us and pray for us.

There was a point in scripture where we saw an example of a request for intercessory prayer. There was the rich man who died and went to hell. Recall he asked for Abraham to intercede on his behalf. Although Abraham didn’t, couldn’t (because the man was in hell), intercessory prayer does exist and work.

We believe that sometimes, we are in a state of sin and that God would often be more willing to hear the request of a saint in heaven than from ourselves. Especially in those cases, but not only, it is helpful to have someone who is in heaven interceding for us.

A lot of Protestants believe everything needs to be direct, no intermediaries whatsoever. However, God frequently used intermediaries, angels, for example. Even the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Annunciation didn’t speak to God, directly, but to the Angel Gabriel.
That was the Blessed Virgin Mary!

In the Bible, there was a case of Christ who spoke to both Moses and Elijah, while still in the flesh. Why did he bother? Why was that good, or necessary? Neither of them is God.

The Bible tells us the saints are like the angels in heaven (Luke 20:36).

We believe people in heaven are united with Christ and are one in spirit with him (Corinthians 6:17).

People in heaven are partakers of divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

The martyrs in heaven know what is going on here on earth (Rev. 6:10).

Dead people in heaven present our prayers to God in the form of incense (Rev. 5:8).

We believe we, the Church, are one body, not separated.

Intercessory prayer is a little like how Mary interceded for the couple at the Wedding of Cana when Christ said it wasn’t his time, yet. Mary interceded for the couple, got her way, and Christ listened to her, changed his mind, said, “yes”. This was a direct result of Mary’s intercession for the couple.

Now, think of a family. Imagine a child asks his father, hears “no”, goes to the mother, asks for her to intercede on his behalf. Sometimes, the father will say “yes” if the mother asks. That’s a little how intercessory prayer works.

I think we need a little humility to realize that it wouldn’t hurt to ask others for their prayers, not depend exclusively on our own merits, since most of us are in a sinful state.

We Catholics believe it’s good to ask others for prayers. If anything, it’s probably even better to ask those in heaven for prayers, since they are already in a state of grace, not sinful, closer to God, have more “pull”, if you will.

God will listen to the angels, saints when he sometimes won’t listen to our sinful selves. We think it’s an act of great humility to ask for help and prayers, not to assume we are worthy in our current state to always try to go directly before the throne of God, alone, say, without any advocates.

 

[dmar198]

Simple answer: we pray to people other than Jesus because we’re folowing the Bible. Here are some Bible passages that support praying to the saints and angels: 1) “Bless the Lord, O you his angels” (Psalms 103:20) “Bless the Lord, all his hosts” (Psalms 103:21) “Praise him, all his angels” – “Praise him, all his host” (Psalms 148:1-2) “Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets.” (Revelation 18:20)These verses show that we can address the saints and angels in heaven when we pray. The difference between the prayer, “Bless the Lord, all his hosts” and “Pray for me, all his hosts” is only the difference between two kinds of prayer. Either way you are addressing the people in heaven, it’s just that if you pray the first way, you’re asking the saints to pray with you, and if you pray the second way, you’re asking the saints to pray for you.2) “[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb…[with] incense, which [is] the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:8) “And another angel came…and he was given much incense to [offer] with the prayers of all the saints.” (Revelation 8:3)These verses tell us two things about the saints in heaven. First, they have our prayers and they bring them before God. This shows that they’ve received them. The “incense” of prayer rises to the saints according to this passage. That shows the saints being prayed to at the very least by some people. Second, the saints in heaven are praying about our prayers. People don’t fall down before God for nothing. Rev. 8:3 makes this clearer by saying that incense-prayer from heaven was added to the incense-prayer from earth. This shows us that the saints in heaven add their prayers to ours. Therefore, they receive our prayers, present them to God, and join their prayers to ours.3) “[Jacob] strove with the angel and prevailed, [then] he wept and sought his favor.” (Hosea 12:4) “[T]he angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads.” (Genesis 48:16)These passages show angels being prayed to. Jacob prayed to an angel for his favor and then later asks him to bless his children. The Hosea passage is clarified by Genesis 32:24-29, where Jacob says to the angel, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” Some people argue that the angel was actually God because in verse 30 Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face,” but Hosea 12:4 says it was an angel. Genesis 32:30 could mean that Jacob thought the angel was God, or understood that angels bear with them the real presence of God. It is also significant that God has no body. That means the reference to His face is symbolic. It refers to God’s presence.4) “[A]t your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. Hear, O daughter, consider, and incline your ear; forget your people and your father’s house; and the king will desire your beauty. Since he is your lord, bow to him; the people of Tyre will sue your favor with gifts, the richest of the people with all kinds of wealth.” (Psalms 45:9-13)This passage is in a messianic psalm and discusses the woman who will stand at the right hand of the Messiah. The woman is Mary and it says specifically that the people of faraway nations “will sue [her] favor with gifts.” This passage shows us that Mary can be prayed to, but it’s also significant because it is a prophecy that is only fulfilled in the Catholic Church. Protestant churches don’t even claim that there is a woman who all the nations seek for her favor, but the Bible says there would be, and she would stand at the right hand of the Messiah.5) “Grace to you and peace from him who is, and was, and is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne.” (Revelation 1:4)In this passage St. John invokes a blessing upon the churches in Asia. He did not only invoke grace from God, but from angels. An invocation is a form of prayer which calls down a blessing on someone. In this passage he calls it down from God and seven angels, which shows us a prayer to the angels.

 

[meltzerboy]

I know that Catholics claim they aren’t praying to saints, they say they are asking the saints to pray for them.

Whether you want to call it praying or asking, it is some form of communication.

I’ll rephrase it for you then. Why don’t catholics just pray to Jesus instead of communicating to saints to pray for them?

Its not like Jesus can’t handle all our prayers. The evidence that Jesus is the mediator between God and man is in the scripture and it is easily and plainly understood. However; the evidence that saints hear our prayers is very little and has to be stretched to make it fit.

Catholicism is in keeping with Jewish law on this issue. Just as Catholicism believes in the Communion of Saints, Judaism believes in the Communion of the Righteous, both living and dead. That is why it is permissible to call on one’s deceased parents, for example, to pray for them; in fact, it is customary for Jews to visit a graveside on a holy fast day and pray in the company of righteous souls. This action has biblical precedence. One does not pray to one’s family or “beseech them” in the sense of expecting them to rise up; however, one can ask for their intercession since they have a loftier relation to G-d. The same applies to righteous, holy Jewish strangers who are alive (Tzadikim). There is Talmudic, Zohar, and even Torah justification for this since Moses, our greatest prophet, served at times as an intercessor between the Jewish people and G-d.

 

[ClearWater]

Oh yeah, and recall the rich man who went to hell asked Abraham to intervene also for his family, to tell them about the existence of hell, to warn them. It wasn’t that Abraham couldn’t have intervened. However, he declined saying that it would all be to no avail. So, Abraham did not intervene on the rich man’s behalf but could have had he wanted to.

 

[Frankenfurter]

Humbly, I must say that some of my prayers are not worthy of going directly to Jesus with. I think of prayer as a 2 way street. I listen too. My favorite saint is St Bernard of Clarvaux. I can pray to him (not worship, but communication as you said) and he speaks back in his own words through his writings. Since the topics of my prayers are universal, his speech is still timely. It is if he speaks directly to me. But I have to become ready to receive it.

It helps sometimes to talk not with the president, but the director, or VP who know the president , because you are not yet ready to approach the big guy until you get some things sorted.

Saint Joseph can help us understand what it means to do God’s work. I mean hard work that you don’t want to do, but do it in service of God. In his case he speaks with his actions and life, not the written word.

Listen to the saints with all your senses and heart and soul. That is the key part of prayer: listening. If we only have Jesus, then we have no example that is attainable.

 

[TimothyH]

Catholics do not pray to Saints or to Mary but rather they ask the Saints and Mary to pray to Jesus for them. Whereas Jesus, whom Christians believe to be G-d, is a mediator to G-d the Father, the Saints are intercessors to Jesus.

Whoa! Speak for yourself. We pray to Saints and to Mary all the time.

I go to a weekly novena to St. Jude where we address many prayers to the St. Jude directly.

Catholics absolutely do pray to saints.

-Tim-

 

[EMFrost]

If I need to get something off the top shelf and I can’t reach it, is it sinful to ask my taller neighbor rather than Christ alone to reach it for me?

God works through the people all around you, on earth or in heaven. You’re not ignoring Him if you ask another person or saint for help. In fact you’re acknowledging the good in His creation and His ability to work, not just through yourself, but through those around you.

 

[ClearWater]

If I need to get something off the top shelf and I can’t reach it, is it sinful to ask my taller neighbor rather than Christ alone to reach it for me?

God works through the people all around you, on earth or in heaven. You’re not ignoring Him if you ask another person or saint for help. In fact you’re acknowledging the good in His creation and His ability to work, not just through yourself, but through those around you.

 

[meltzerboy]

Whoa! Speak for yourself. We pray to Saints and to Mary all the time.

I go to a weekly novena to St. Jude where we address many prayers to the St. Jude directly.

Catholics absolutely do pray to saints.

-Tim-

I thought Catholics ask saints to intercede or pray FOR them. Praying TO saints would mean worshiping, not venerating, them. There is, I think, a significant difference.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What is the point of praying to anyone but Jesus? Jesus can handle all our prayers

Yep!

All we do is ask others to pray for us. I ask my friends, family, priest, and my friends in heaven to pray for me.

People don’t disappear when they die. They live on, in heaven they are forever a part of the body of Christ. As such they can pray for me just like I might ask you to do.

Revelation 5:8

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

The Catholic Church uses incense to symbolize prayer in this way. Does yours? It seems the Bible clearly shows Saints in heaven presenting “the prayers of Gods people” to Christ.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hey Meltzerboy, I’m curious, does Judaism have or did it ever have any belief in the intercession of the saints? Or something similar?

I ask because the 2nd book of Maccabees has a scene where the prophet Jeremiah is seen in heaven praying for the Jewish soldiers, so it made me wonder if this was a common belief in Judaism.

Robyn, see post #26. Yes, indeed, there is something similar in Judaism.

 

[ClearWater]

Some people believe that if we ask a saint or angel to pray for us that it taking something away from God. We don’t think so, though.

We don’t think it’s sinful to ask a neighbor for prayers or the Blessed Virgin Mary or a saint. Quite the opposite. We think it’s to be encouraged.

Saints are people like us. Yet, they have made it.

As to angels, we believe we each have a guardian angel assigned to us. We think it’s very acceptable and recommended to communicate with him, ask for his help.

Now, some think we worship Mary, the saints or angels. However, I think even most small children are capable of understanding that we acknowledge that saints, angels and Mary aren’t God, to ask for their prayers but not worship them.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I know that Catholics claim they aren’t praying to saints, they say they are asking the saints to pray for them.

Whether you want to call it praying or asking, it is some form of communication.

I’ll rephrase it for you then. Why don’t catholics just pray to Jesus instead of communicating to saints to pray for them?

Its not like Jesus can’t handle all our prayers. The evidence that Jesus is the mediator between God and man is in the scripture and it is easily and plainly understood. However; the evidence that saints hear our prayers is very little and has to be stretched to make it fit.

Does this mean you never ask anyone to pray for you???

Yes Jesus can handle it all so you only pray to him right? You never ask anyone around you to pray for you? Wouldn’t want them to waste their time, you already prayed.

We pray to Christ always and ask others to do the same for us.

 

[TimothyH]

I thought Catholics ask saints to intercede or pray FOR them. Praying TO saints would mean worshiping, not venerating, them. There is, I think, a significant difference.

No, prayer is not worship. Equating prayer with worship is a non-Catholic error.

We are wise enough to know that the saints do nothing without the power of God, that all comes from God. God can and often does act unilaterally but he likes to work through people. Consider Moses and Judith and Esther. In fact, God likes to act through people so much that he became one.

***His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ *(Matthew 25:21)

The saints have entered into the joy of the master and have been given great responsibility over many things. That is why we pray to them.

-Tim-

 

[dmar198]

I thought Catholics ask saints to intercede or pray FOR them.

That’s correct, but classically Catholics call that praying to saints. In older English “pray” meant “ask,” e.g. “I pray thee, where are they?” When Catholics say “praying to the saints,” it’s with that older meaning of ask – specifically, we ask them for their intercession.

Praying TO saints would mean worshiping, not venerating, them. There is, I think, a significant difference.

As I said, when Catholics say “praying to the saints,” we are using it in an older usage that could be applied to people without implying that you are worshipping them. Does that make sense?

 

[Jon_S_1]

No, prayer is not worship. Equating prayer with worship is a non-Catholic error.

We are wise enough to know that the saints do nothing without the power of God, that all comes from God. God can and often does act unilaterally but he likes to work through people. Consider Moses and Judith and Esther. In fact, God likes to act through people so much that he became one.

***His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ ***(Matthew 25:21)

The saints have entered into the joy of the master and have been given great responsibility over many things. That is why we pray to them.

-Tim-

I don’t believe you are stating Catholic teaching correctly.

Any grace given us comes from God and if we ask a Saint for prayer, they pray for God with us and any answer is from God not the Saint.

Ie: I pray to St Jude when searching for a job. I get a job. Thanks be to God for helping me get a job and thanks to St Jude for praying for me.

 

[meltzerboy]

That’s correct, but classically Catholics call that praying to saints. In older English “pray” meant “ask,” e.g. “I pray thee, where are they?” When Catholics say “praying to the saints,” it’s with that older meaning of ask – specifically, we ask them for their intercession. As I said, when Catholics say “praying to the saints,” we are using it in an older usage that could be applied to people without implying that you are worshipping them. Does that make sense?

Yes, I understand the meaning now. Thanks.