Why pray to Mary or anyone other than God?

[Insight]

Mary is/was the mother of Christ. Sorry, but my simple mind can’t imagine that God had a mother or father. The human aspect of Christ certainly had a mother, and that was Mary. God is God is God - no mother or father - eternal - not created - not born.

Found this interesting explanation of Mary, comparing Her to the Ark of the Covenant:

“Some Catholics may be concerned that Marian Apparitions might distract our focus from Jesus Christ, or they may have difficulty comprehending the whole Catholic Co-Redemptrix philosophy. Some non-Catholics may also have difficultly understanding the Co-Redemptive process, considering Mary to be only some kind of a birthing vessel, even capable of possessing the same sins and sinful desires as any other woman.

The Ark of the Covenant was so Holy, that God gave specific instructions as to how It must be built. Every single detail; from the wood that must be used, to what metals to incorporate, how to carry It, how to hold It, what was to be placed in It, etc. God even warned; if It starts to tip or fall don’t touch It. We all know what happened when the Ark was being carried by the Israelites on an ox-cart and began to tilt, an Israelite put his hand on It to stabilize It, and God instantaneously struck him dead. God warned not to touch It, and He immediately defended His Vessel with severe capital punishment. God doesn’t give these exacting instructions in the Old Testament only once, but He gives them twice. The Ark possessed such incredible power, that armies who carried It before them, won their victories. When King David recovered the Ark he danced every seven steps proclaiming his joy at getting the Ark Back. He was even chastised by his wife who said he was making a fool out of himself. He told her that she didn’t understand the significance. We got the Ark back! He knew there was power there!

And if there was so much power with the Ark because It contained objects that were touched by the very Finger of God (the Jewish Decalogue known as the Ten Commandments, on two tablets that God inscribed with His Finger), how much more power is there in the Container that enclosed the actual Divine Holy Finger of God? And not just the Finger, but the Hand of God, and not just the Hand, but the entire Body of God? And how much more Holy of a Vessel would be required to carry all that Divinity? And how much more exacting and perfect construction would be required to build such a Faultless Holy Vessel? And that is what Mary is, God’s most Perfect Ark, the bearer of Himself.”

DefendingMedjugorje.com/Pages/Antagonist.htm

God Bless

 

[Disinherited]

Christ is one Person but has two natures: a divine one and a human one. If Mary isn’t the Mother of God because She didn’t give Jesus His Divine nature, then Jesus Himself shouldn’t be called the Son of God because God certainly didn’t give Him His human nature. God may have created humanity but He didn’t exactly create the body of Jesus out of thin air like how He did with Adam, if you know what I mean. He used the Holy Spirit and the virginal body of Mary to make the body of Christ. (Also, Roy, you seem to be saying that because they were bad people [Solomon and David] then a monarch is essentially bad. Not true, because first of all Solomon was said to be a great leader and very kind, and even if every king in the world was corrupt they would still have God-given rights and that doesn’t change the fact that Christ is called the King of Kings in the Bible itself. It doesn’t speak of Him as King metaphorically but literally, having power over the earth and the Church, etc… the same goes for our interpretation of Mary being our admirable Queen. In all respect, your comment of the American founding father made me laugh, especially since they had not god given rights. Neither God nor Mary nor the Church ever sanctioned what they did even though alot of it wasn’t essentially wrong and contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church actually supported democracy during all its years of existence. It just doesn’t believe that all countries are suitable to be democratic).

Some Protestants will counter this (contradicting their previous opinion and all common sense) by saying that the body of Jesus never was made by the body of Mary but was created by God in heaven and then it was passed through into Mary’s womb. Plot holes? Many, because if that were true, the Bible would at least explain this a bit and if it were true, then Jesus wouldn’t have gotten our own flesh but only an artificial one.

In fact, there is an opinion which I hold. I never heard anyone say it but it seems so plausible to me. It is that in one way or another, there necessarily had to be a woman (the Blessed Virgin Mary) in order for Jesus to come into this world and assume our flesh. This Mary wasn’'t absolutely absolutely necessary (emphasis added) as God alone could do everything by Himself but was hypothetically necessary to Him in order for things to work even better.

 

[ClamDigger]

Found this interesting explanation of Mary, comparing Her to the Ark of the Covenant:

“Some Catholics may be concerned that Marian Apparitions might distract our focus from Jesus Christ, or they may have difficulty comprehending the whole Catholic Co-Redemptrix philosophy. Some non-Catholics may also have difficultly understanding the Co-Redemptive process, considering Mary to be only some kind of a birthing vessel, even capable of possessing the same sins and sinful desires as any other woman.

The Ark of the Covenant was so Holy, that God gave specific instructions as to how It must be built. Every single detail; from the wood that must be used, to what metals to incorporate, how to carry It, how to hold It, what was to be placed in It, etc. God even warned; if It starts to tip or fall don’t touch It. We all know what happened when the Ark was being carried by the Israelites on an ox-cart and began to tilt, an Israelite put his hand on It to stabilize It, and God instantaneously struck him dead. God warned not to touch It, and He immediately defended His Vessel with severe capital punishment. God doesn’t give these exacting instructions in the Old Testament only once, but He gives them twice. The Ark possessed such incredible power, that armies who carried It before them, won their victories. When King David recovered the Ark he danced every seven steps proclaiming his joy at getting the Ark Back. He was even chastised by his wife who said he was making a fool out of himself. He told her that she didn’t understand the significance. We got the Ark back! He knew there was power there!

And if there was so much power with the Ark because It contained objects that were touched by the very Finger of God (the Jewish Decalogue known as the Ten Commandments, on two tablets that God inscribed with His Finger), how much more power is there in the Container that enclosed the actual Divine Holy Finger of God? And not just the Finger, but the Hand of God, and not just the Hand, but the entire Body of God? And how much more Holy of a Vessel would be required to carry all that Divinity? And how much more exacting and perfect construction would be required to build such a Faultless Holy Vessel? And that is what Mary is, God’s most Perfect Ark, the bearer of Himself.”

DefendingMedjugorje.com/Pages/Antagonist.htm

God Bless

I apologize for any confusion my post may have caused due to my poor seperation of my posts and Roy’s posts. I did not write the thing about “God has no mother”, that was Roy.

 

[Insight]

I apologize for any confusion my post may have caused due to my poor seperation of my posts and Roy’s posts. I did not write the thing about “God has no mother”, that was Roy.

Roger on that, God Bless

 

[rikkk1958]

Anyway, thanks for your patience. I am inclined to think that 'no one cometh unto the Father but by me" but I don't interpret that to mean that Jesus keeps out everybody but Christians. I expect to find  Zoroastrians, Shintoists, Rastafarians, shamanists, worshipers of the sun and the moon, and millions of others in the world to come. What an interesting gathering! My honest opinion is that we'll all feel a bit silly because our religious insights have been so narrow. With maybe 100,000,000 stars (or even solar systems) out there in space I somehow doubt if we know very much. "Now we know in part...And the greatest of these is love." I Cor. 13. I do praise God daily for this magnificent, mammoth, mirculous and mysterious world.

God bless everybody.

Roy, our position as Catholics is obedience to Christ. You may be right in your own understanding but this is where we differ because although we are not perfect, we want to be obedient to what Christ did and said while alive, but He no longer walks with us, He had to give authority to His apostles so that they can continue to proclaim and teach the Gospel but also taught us how we should be in communion with Him through His Church. Obedience means, we have to abide as much as possible to what He said and that, some may be literally to the point that we have to believe His real presence in the Eucharist. We believe and the apostles believed, the bread and wine they took were His body and Blood. Just imagine if you are also present in that room.

 

[Roy5]

rikkk1958

 No argument. As I have said repeatedly, I respect variuous faiths, and various interpretations of Christianity. I am simply pointing out why many people, even though raised Catholic, find Catholicism (and evangelical Protestantism) too limited and limiting as they study more. 

 There are at least two major problems. One is authority. I find it difficult to allow someone or something else - whether a Pope, the magisterium, a creed or a Bible - to be in charge of my thinking. Call that ego or rebelliousness or whatever you want. I must have been born with an innate curiosity, eager to explore this vast and profound existence and universe without the feeling that I have to conform to guidelines that have come down through the ages. To begin with, I've read widely in the field of religious faith over many years and the more I learn the more I realize that there have been all manner of opinions within the wider church. Various votes were taken by various councils, and I am not ready to say that those decisions always were dictated by the Holy Spirit. Those who do accept that - fine. Some of us apparently find that impossible to do.

 The second major problem is tradition. So often theologians 'prove' this or that idea by quoting some Church Father or some other ancient source. Now I have read many of the Church Fathers over the years and have not been that impressed. That they were brilliant for their age may be true. But their age had feeble telescopes and no microscopes. They believed that the sun ran around the earth, that heaven was somewhere above the clouds, that hell was in remote regions under the earth, that diseases could be caused by demons, etc. They also believed in witches and even dragons. In short, they lacked knowledge that we consider elementary today, and embraced all manner of superstitions instead. So, proving something by saying the early Christians believed it doesn't carry weight with me. I got to the point where I needed to be free of beliefs that can seem primitive in toay's world.  I have to admit that I even wrestle with certain central teachings. The notion, for example, that God had his only Son killed in such a cruel fashion to save us from sin - hm! There must have been a better way. It smacks of the insistence that God demanded a human sacrifice, a blood sacrifice, and nothing less. Millions believe it, but I suspect that millions of mass-attending Christians, both Catholics and Protestants, have trouble with it too, so they take it as symbolism. I tend toward doing the same.

 My faith centers in God and his power, mercy, and love. Christ embodied all that and much in the New Testament indicates this. I find that the Sermon on the Mount, the Parable of the Good Samaritan and Matt. 25:31ff provide the core of my religion. There are far too much God-directed genocide in the Old Testament (e. g., Joshua told to murder the inhabitants of Jericho and Saul commanded to slaughter all the Amalekites). And i am troubled by some passages in the New Testament, too; e. g., 'slaves, obey your masters'; women keep silence in the churches; and even such words attributed to Jesus as recorded in Matt. 10:34 and Luke 14:26. 

 In short, I apparently need a reasonable religion and always have worried that paganism has infected Christianity in a variety of ways over the centuries.

 But God is our strength and our Redeemer, our hope and ouir consolation, our Lord and our salvation, and I am grateful for that. I will be pleased when Catholicism is a 'big tent' and permits a freer atmosphere for people like me whose curiosity and awe before creation lead us to keep asking questions and enjoying the search for answers.

 

[Tiberius1701]

My faith centers in God and his power, mercy, and love. Christ embodied all that and much in the New Testament indicates this. I find that the Sermon on the Mount, the Parable of the Good Samaritan and Matt. 25:31ff provide the core of my religion. There are far too much God-directed genocide in the Old Testament (e. g., Joshua told to murder the inhabitants of Jericho and Saul commanded to slaughter all the Amalekites). And i am troubled by some passages in the New Testament, too; e. g., ‘slaves, obey your masters’; women keep silence in the churches; and even such words attributed to Jesus as recorded in Matt. 10:34 and Luke 14:26.

In short, I apparently need a reasonable religion and always have worried that paganism has infected Christianity in a variety of ways over the centuries.

But God is our strength and our Redeemer, our hope and ouir consolation, our Lord and our salvation, and I am grateful for that. I will be pleased when Catholicism is a ‘big tent’ and permits a freer atmosphere for people like me whose curiosity and awe before creation lead us to keep asking questions and enjoying the search for answers.

Well, sorry Roy, but Catholicism, while being a gigantic Cathedral the size of the entire universe and beyond, is still presided over by the Great High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ Who is Truth and Light. And, in His House, we will always be judged by what Truth we were offered, and how we responded to it. If you cannot even submit to the very words of Christ the Word, because it ruffles your feathers to think that God, the Author and Creator of Everything, the Eternal Being Who IS Truth just might have more of a right to tell you what Truth is (you know, since He IS It and created and sustains It) than your own, pathetically limitted and fallible human brain does, then I’m afraid I have to warn you that you’ll probably end up being eternally haunted by the words,
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in Heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers’” (Matt 7:21-23).
Although I’m sure you think this verse too is just “limitting and limitted” thinking at work again - and you probably don’t believe that anyone could possibly prophesy, or cast out demons (which you probably don’t believe exist anyway), or “do many mighty works” i.e. miracles that you likely don’t believe in - I still promise that if you keep declaring yourself wiser than God, then Matthew 7:21-23 and all the verses like it will forever haunt you, when you look up from the Pit at the Eternal Cathedral where pagans and atheists and all the rest who at least submitted to the Truth to which they had access are dancing and singing along side the Church Triumphant in the Holy Mass of the Wedding Supper of the Lamb for all Eternity.

 

[Roy5]

Gosh, Tiberius. You certainly have become an avid cheerleader for the Church. This pit business. Is that hell fire? Scary. But since I rely upon my faith in Christ, I’m happy in my faith. Or, lack of it, as you might suggest.

The number of converts among my family and friends is a bit startling. Some of them left Catholicism for a form of evangelical Protestantism. Others are like I am - not so interested in a specific affiliation but continuing to explore the mysteries of life and trying to be worthy disciples of Jesus. I guess I've come to think of faith not so much as a matter of hierarchy or of Biblical literalism or of sacraments but of a simple trust in God. I don't sweat the details. Demons or no demons. A true church or a humble faith. Transubstantiation or a reminder that Christ is among us. Prayers to 1000 saints or to the one Lord. I leave it up to individual Christians as to what they find to be true.

Which Tiberius are you seeking to emulate? My Roman history is a bit weak but I seem to recall that one of them sought to be a greated reformer. I am rather sympathetic to reformers. Among my favorites is John XXIII. I also am a devotee of St. Francis of Assissi. I admired St. Thomas Aquinas until I pored over his Summa and discovered that he wanted heretics to executed. Do you agree with him on that? Not too different from consigning them to the pit, is it?    

 I am a great admirer of priests and nuns who are dedicated, sacrificing servants of God. They continue to do some wonderful work around the world. I do have a problem with all the pomp and ceremony surrounding the hierarchy. Somehow it doesn't seem to reflect Jesus, who had no place to rest his head. I presume I am a victim of democracy and feel estranged from traditions that appear to reflect those ancient and medieval times when monarchs reigned infallibly in their costly and colorful garments.

 But God forgive me if I indicate anything but love, because I'm sure that God's love is deep and wide, and ours should be likewise. Isn't that the principal message of the gospel? Paul summed it up so beautifully in I Cor. 13.

 Keep smiling. Have a blessed Memorial Day weekend. We're going on a picnic and hope to ignore the perpetual crises in the vast world around us. After all, "I trust in God wherever I may be, upon the land or on the rolling sea. When billows roll, He keeps my soul, my Heavenly Father watches over me." One of my favorite hymns.

 

[Tiberius1701]

Gosh, Tiberius. You certainly have become an avid cheerleader for the Church. This pit business. Is that hell fire? Scary. But since I rely upon my faith in Christ, I’m happy in my faith. Or, lack of it, as you might suggest.

The number of converts among my family and friends is a bit startling. Some of them left Catholicism for a form of evangelical Protestantism. Others are like I am - not so interested in a specific affiliation but continuing to explore the mysteries of life and trying to be worthy disciples of Jesus. I guess I've come to think of faith not so much as a matter of hierarchy or of Biblical literalism or of sacraments but of a simple trust in God. I don't sweat the details. Demons or no demons. A true church or a humble faith. Transubstantiation or a reminder that Christ is among us. Prayers to 1000 saints or to the one Lord. I leave it up to individual Christians as to what they find to be true.

Which Tiberius are you seeking to emulate? My Roman history is a bit weak but I seem to recall that one of them sought to be a greated reformer. I am rather sympathetic to reformers. Among my favorites is John XXIII. I also am a devotee of St. Francis of Assissi. I admired St. Thomas Aquinas until I pored over his Summa and discovered that he wanted heretics to executed. Do you agree with him on that? Not too different from consigning them to the pit, is it?    

 I am a great admirer of priests and nuns who are dedicated, sacrificing servants of God. They continue to do some wonderful work around the world. I do have a problem with all the pomp and ceremony surrounding the hierarchy. Somehow it doesn't seem to reflect Jesus, who had no place to rest his head. I presume I am a victim of democracy and feel estranged from traditions that appear to reflect those ancient and medieval times when monarchs reigned infallibly in their costly and colorful garments.

 But God forgive me if I indicate anything but love, because I'm sure that God's love is deep and wide, and ours should be likewise. Isn't that the principal message of the gospel? Paul summed it up so beautifully in I Cor. 13.

 Keep smiling. Have a blessed Memorial Day weekend. We're going on a picnic and hope to ignore the perpetual crises in the vast world around us. After all, "I trust in God wherever I may be, upon the land or on the rolling sea. When billows roll, He keeps my soul, my Heavenly Father watches over me." One of my favorite hymns.

Roy, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, I’m simply doing the Church’s business by giving you fair warning. If you are consigned to hell, it won’t be by me. That’s God’s call.

As for which Tiberius my nickname refers to, that would be - as it says below - to the River Tiber, in Rome, signifying my conversion to Catholicism, and - as it also hints below - James Tiberius Kirk, Captain of the fictional USS Enterprise (though if I were to emulate any Captain from Star Trek, it would always be Captain Jean-Luc Picard). As for actual emulation, I try to emulate St. Macarius of Jerusalem, his deacon (and later successor to the bishopric of Jerusalem) St Cyril of the same, St. Francis de Sales who brought so many thousands of Catholics-turned-Calvinists back home to Catholicism (as he helped do for me), St. Cyprian of Carthage, G.K. Chesterton, J.R.R. Tolkien, etc. I imitate all these as they imitated Christ. But remember, Christ wasn’t all hugs and kisses, he also cleared His Father’s House with a whip…

 

[JonNC]

God bless you for speaking what’s on your mind. I have immensely value your and other opinions here. I have learned so much, however Bill Cosby once said you can serve two identical steak dinners. One on fine china the other one on a trash can lid. Which one would you like to eat off of? It’s not what you say; it’s how you say it.

To reply to your analysis how Luther stood up to create a lazy theology, I understand it, that he stood up against the practices of selling indulgence for revenue. There is no doubt that the reformation had some undesirable effects. Christian Liberty let the genie out of the bottle, if you will, with Calvinism and Anabaptist popping up, which by the way, Luther opposed.

Luther definitely came up short in some areas, I’ll give you that. Like the sacraments of the Church. Just for an example, I don’t agree with him on absolution and confession. They should be a sacrament. Philip Melanchthon thought so as well. But Luther showed his human emotion here and said although it was spiritually right, but because the Church (of antiquity) used it as a “weapon” he came short of calling it a sacrament.

So to this day, the Lutheran Church MS has absolution and confession in the service but it is not sacrament. ??? That’s like me and my wife refusing to call ourselves married because the backward state of California says the gays are now married. Here Luther threw the baby out with the bathwater in my opinion. This goes for some other sacraments as well.

Getting back to Mary, what shocked me was when I read Luther’s Explanation of the Magnificat 1522. I never knew he had such devotion to Mary. When I read the Magnificat, it was hard for me to see a “filthy drunkard” writing this.

We as Lutherans were taught in school that devotion to Mary was a Catholic teaching and Lutherans simply don’t do that. After reading the Magnificat I knew that was wrong. I called my dad to talk to him about this. He said that the immaculate conception, saying the rosary and the perpetually virginity teachings were a “Catholic thing.” When I read Luther’s writing, where he professes that this was his belief, my dad was speechless. I am not kidding; speechless. He said he had been a Lutheran for over 40 years and never knew Luther believed this.

I also read that Luther meditated on the rosary and had statues of Mary in his church. They remained there for 200 years after his death. So here I am; wanting to learn more from reliable sources about Mary. I do not want to become my like my father. If I am going to call myself a Lutheran, I am going to find out what it means. I am going to read from Luther’s own words and his teachings. Not someone else’s that came 300 years after Luther.

As for the disaster of the Reformation, I think the jury is still out on that. What I mean is that the Reformation is still on going. It has not ended. And from what I read about Luther, if he was alive today and looked at the Catholic Church of today, I believe he would support Lutherans going home (where we belong.) When we end up where we started from, then we can look back and judge the Reformation together in my humble opinion.

Luther himself said that if he knew that a piece of paper (95 Thesis) would have started such a fire, he would have been more careful on some of the points. Sounds like self-reflection and remorse for some of his words/actions. I believe he was a man of God but still a man with vices.

I think the Holy Father said it in such a perfect and eloquent way when he said, while visiting a Lutheran church in Rome, that the Reformation was a result of a sinful situation and that the divisions with the two Churches are due to a mutual “fault.”

I’d eat off of that plate any day! Again, I can’t thank you enough for this dialog! Some of the replies on this subject of Mary have really been an eye opener. I would still love to find that verse in the Old Testament that deals with God being frustrated that there is no one to hold him back when dealing with us sinners.

Good to hear from another evangelical cathlic.

Jon

 

[Tiberius1701]

I admired St. Thomas Aquinas until I pored over his Summa and discovered that he wanted heretics to [be] executed. Do you agree with him on that? Not too different from consigning them to the pit, is it?

Sorry, Roy, I meant to respond to this but forgot.

No, I don’t agree with him on that. I have not read the Summa nor do I know his cultural and historical circumstances well enough to have an opinion about his philosphy on heretics relative to its context. However here, today, I don’t see the logic in it. Heretics, by definition, are in a state of obstinate, post-baptismal rejection of Truth, which puts into question their chance of getting into Heaven. Since God’s Will is that, if their free will consents, everyone be saved and come to the knowledge of God that is, by definition, union with Him in Heaven, then executing anyone while they’re in a state of refusal seems contrary to the Will of God to me. I’d much rather give them as much time as God naturally allows to change their minds. But, remember, neither I nor St. Thomas Aquinas are Bishops, nor is either of us the Pope. So, both these opinions are just that: opinions of fallible men who do not enjoy the charism of infallibility in any capacity.

As I said in my other post, I’m not peronally consigning you, nor anyone, to the Pit of Hell. I’m mearly warning you that if you remain in a state of obstinate, post-baptismal denial of the Truth to which you are so clearly and so constantly exposing yourself, God has every right to, and may very well, consign you there Himself. I don’t say this out of malice, but rather out of love because, like God, I want to see you saved. Therefore, I offer you fair warning. However, if you do not submit to God’s Truth rather than to the “truth” you create for yourself, your blood is no longer on my hands (cf. Ezekial 33:1-11).

 

[Stepson]

Good to hear from another evangelical cathlic.

Jon

Brother the labels I’ve received let me tell you, that’s nothing. I’ve even been kicked out of a non-denominational credit union church. I just wish I could go to church floating on a cloud of righteousness like others.

 

[Tiberius1701]

Brother the labels I’ve received let me tell you, that’s nothing. I’ve even been kicked out of a non-denominational credit union church. I just wish I could go to church floating on a cloud of righteousness like others.

lol. A “credit union church”? I just have to ask, how does that work?

 

[Stepson]

lol. A “credit union church”? I just have to ask, how does that work?

They take your money, play music, pastor comes our says some inspiring words on a stage that does not have an altar but a drum set and leaves out the back. If you have a personal problem with life they don’t want to hear from you until the checks stop coming. Then they want to know when the checks are going to start back up. Kinda of like that.

 

[Hello_All]

Why dont we focus on the RESULTS of the prayer/s of Mary and the Saints.There are thousands of MIRACLES that have been attributed to their intercession.I myself have so many miracles in my life,that I received from Jesus Christ,thru the powerful intercession of them,especially Mary.Also why is the SON being pitied agaisnt hsi Mother or vise versa?

 

[franny50]

I seldom pray to the saints to intercede.I like praying directly to the source.

 

[Roy5]

This morning the reading from Acts 17 focused on Paul at Mars Hill in Athens. The city had many idols devoted to various gods or representations of god.

As I heard the scripture a question crossed my mind. At church, with its altars to Mary and often to other saints, how different was that from what Paul found in Athens? I was especially impressed by verse 29, which reads in part that "we ought not to think that God is like gold, silver or stone, graven by art or man's hand." 

 I presume such verses as this one influenced the Puritans and others to avoid rich adornments that were so prominent in Catholicism at one time - less so since Vatican II. The Puritans and other iconoclasts went overboard, but I do have some concern, already expressed, that Catholicism can be unduly influenced by paganism, and perhaps especially when it comes to Mariology and the veneration of saints. The line between reasonable and reliable faith and superstition is thin - and am I too sensitive to crossing that line?

 Having said that, to each his own beliefs. I respect the traditions of others - yes, even of Hindus with their many avatars and incarnations - so I certainly respect those of Catholicism. But respecting and accepting are two quite different things. I spent awhile with a Hindu family in India 17 years ago, and if they don't make it into heaven I will be surprised and disappointed (and worried?). I suspect we're all involved in a lot of well-meaning guesswork when it comes to the ultimate 'truths' in this vast and mysterious universe. I glory in God, and am deeply grateful to the Lord, which is enough to keep me spiritually content. "Farther along we'll know all about, farther along we'll understand why, cheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine, we'll understand it all bye and bye." A favorite gospel chorus of mine.

 

[hooveam]

The saints are nothing in and of themselves. The only reason the Church venerates saints is to glorify God through them. Goodness is a gift that no man can produce- it comes from God. Knowing this, venerating a saint would be much like putting up a painting. You are complimenting the artist because of his handiwork.

Now, we know that in John 4:50, Jesus healed a man because of the faith of his father. We know from James 5:16, that the prayers of the righteous are powerful. Knowing that there are many more saints that are more righteous than me, and knowing that Mary is blessed among women, I find great comfort in asking for their intercession. I know that there is much spiritual warfare in the world, and that prayer is our best weapon. I like to increase the offense by requesting the prayers of the saints.

Importantly, I do set aside time every day to pray to Jesus, and that is indeed the focus of my prayerlife.

Edit: I’d also like to add that I think the saints are a gift to the Church from God. God gives them to us for more guidance and encouragement. He is the reason they are saints at all, and what he does for one person, he does for all Christians.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

This morning the reading from Acts 17 focused on Paul at Mars Hill in Athens. The city had many idols devoted to various gods or representations of god.

As I heard the scripture a question crossed my mind. **At church, with its altars to Mary and often to other saints, how different was that from what Paul found in Athens?** I was especially impressed by verse 29, which reads in part that "we ought not to think that God is like gold, silver or stone, graven by art or man's hand."

You answered your own question.

 I presume such verses as this one influenced the Puritans and others to avoid rich adornments that were so prominent in Catholicism at one time - less so since Vatican II. The Puritans and other iconoclasts went overboard, but I do have some concern, already expressed, that Catholicism can be unduly influenced by paganism, and perhaps especially when it comes to Mariology and the veneration of saints. The line between reasonable and reliable faith and superstition is thin - and am I too sensitive to crossing that line?

Even if what you said is true, I am shocked that an “open tent christian” would have any problems with paganism. *“I have many beliefs that don’t line up with the Bible but it’s your beliefs that I feel don’t line up with the Bible that are pagan…” *

I respect the traditions of others

You’ll never convince anyone of that.

God bless

 

[JonNC]

Brother the labels I’ve received let me tell you, that’s nothing. I’ve even been kicked out of a non-denominational credit union church. I just wish I could go to church floating on a cloud of righteousness like others.

Hope you know I meant it as a compliment, as I consider myself one.

Jon