J
Joe_5859
Guest
Here’s a place for your discussion, Ralph! I’m sure you will get many (hopefully charitable) responses!
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T
tm30
Guest
I just posted this on another thread:
Assuming the fundamentalist interpretation - if no one gets to the Father except through the Son, why did Jesus teach everyone to circumvent the Son and directly address “Our Father”? So, right there, either the fundamentalist interpretation is incorrect, or Scripture contradicts itself.
The correct interpretation involves the application of Jesus’ salvific atonement on the cross - an act that no other person can equal, being that Jesus is both human and divine. In this way, Jesus is the only mediator with the Father. No one - no saint, no living mortal, not even Mary - can mediate in this respect.
But Jesus indeed teaches that there are many general mediators with God and Himself (as the Second Person) - the saints (Revelation), the disciples (“make disciples of all nations”), Mary (Cana), angels (the annunciation) and Scripture itself (“all Scripture is useful…”).
If one broadly defines “mediation”, then the Bible is rife with contradictions. If one defines “mediation” in the context of mediating between the sin of Adam and the anger/sadness/justice of God over that sin (which we are all born with), then there shouldn’t be any further misunderstandings over perceived contradictions between invoking the help of Mary and the saints, and the role of Christ as sole mediator.
The body of Christ is alive. St. Paul describes its many parts and operations. As each of us is part of that body, created by Christ, we’re expected to “cooperate” with each other. This speaks to the importance of communion with one another - the communion of the saints.
Throughout the Gospel, there are many who mediate for others before Christ: 1) the cripple brought by his friends - whose faith wins Jesus’ pity. 2) The centurion who approaches on behalf of his ailing servant. 3) Mary interceding at Cana for the wedding couple. 4) The rich man and his servant.
These are all situations in which someone approaches Jesus on behalf of someone else. Since Jesus knows all, indeed He could simply heal all of these individuals without the help of their friends BEFORE their friends approached. He was AT the wedding in Cana. He absolutely knew there was no wine, but He wasn’t pleased to do anything about it until Mary came to him on behalf of the wedding party. These incidents are not just random insertions in the Gospel. The fact that the ill or ill-fated subjects of these stories came to Jesus through others and received their miracles is there to illustrate that it’s as much God’s will to have a direct relationship with us, as it is to have a relationship with us through our relationship with other members of His body.
One must also consider that the answer to a prayer made directly to Christ is indeed, sometimes, that He directs others around us to come to Him on our behalf. Like the cripple, we are all spiritually crippled by sin, and there is certainly nothing contradicting Scripture in asking the spiritually healthy (the saints, Mary) to bring us on a litter to Jesus, where He will regard the righteousness of the saints as the basis for our healing and forgiveness.
Assuming the fundamentalist interpretation - if no one gets to the Father except through the Son, why did Jesus teach everyone to circumvent the Son and directly address “Our Father”? So, right there, either the fundamentalist interpretation is incorrect, or Scripture contradicts itself.
The correct interpretation involves the application of Jesus’ salvific atonement on the cross - an act that no other person can equal, being that Jesus is both human and divine. In this way, Jesus is the only mediator with the Father. No one - no saint, no living mortal, not even Mary - can mediate in this respect.
But Jesus indeed teaches that there are many general mediators with God and Himself (as the Second Person) - the saints (Revelation), the disciples (“make disciples of all nations”), Mary (Cana), angels (the annunciation) and Scripture itself (“all Scripture is useful…”).
If one broadly defines “mediation”, then the Bible is rife with contradictions. If one defines “mediation” in the context of mediating between the sin of Adam and the anger/sadness/justice of God over that sin (which we are all born with), then there shouldn’t be any further misunderstandings over perceived contradictions between invoking the help of Mary and the saints, and the role of Christ as sole mediator.
The body of Christ is alive. St. Paul describes its many parts and operations. As each of us is part of that body, created by Christ, we’re expected to “cooperate” with each other. This speaks to the importance of communion with one another - the communion of the saints.
Throughout the Gospel, there are many who mediate for others before Christ: 1) the cripple brought by his friends - whose faith wins Jesus’ pity. 2) The centurion who approaches on behalf of his ailing servant. 3) Mary interceding at Cana for the wedding couple. 4) The rich man and his servant.
These are all situations in which someone approaches Jesus on behalf of someone else. Since Jesus knows all, indeed He could simply heal all of these individuals without the help of their friends BEFORE their friends approached. He was AT the wedding in Cana. He absolutely knew there was no wine, but He wasn’t pleased to do anything about it until Mary came to him on behalf of the wedding party. These incidents are not just random insertions in the Gospel. The fact that the ill or ill-fated subjects of these stories came to Jesus through others and received their miracles is there to illustrate that it’s as much God’s will to have a direct relationship with us, as it is to have a relationship with us through our relationship with other members of His body.
One must also consider that the answer to a prayer made directly to Christ is indeed, sometimes, that He directs others around us to come to Him on our behalf. Like the cripple, we are all spiritually crippled by sin, and there is certainly nothing contradicting Scripture in asking the spiritually healthy (the saints, Mary) to bring us on a litter to Jesus, where He will regard the righteousness of the saints as the basis for our healing and forgiveness.
J
JustaServant
Guest
I also just posted this on another thread:
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.
J
JustaServant
Guest
God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
T
tobinatorstark
Guest
Tobias 13:12-15Here’s a place for your discussion, Ralph! I’m sure you will get many (hopefully charitable) responses!
Give glory to the Lord for thy good things, and bless the God eternal, that he may rebuild his tabernacle in thee, and may call back all the captives to thee, and thou mayst rejoice for ever and ever. 13 Thou shalt shine with a glorious light: and all the ends of the earth shall worship thee. 14 Nations from afar shall come to thee: and shall bring gifts, and shall adore the Lord in thee, and shall esteem thy land as holy. 15 For they shall call upon the great name in thee.
Apocalypse 5:8
8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:
Apocalypse 8:3-4
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.
Job 5:1
Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints
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