Why pray, when we cannot change God's will?

[mathematoons]

I’m still confused.

If I pray to God asking for the continued health of my family or for the Church to get stronger, does the prayer have no use, if things are already predistined?

Some are saying yes, some are saying no.

Is there an apologetic in the room?

I have the same question. What kind of omniscient, omnipotent God can be swayed by a flawed human being? If He can, then He is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and hence is not God. I can pray for anything until the cows come home, but if that’s not God’s will, then He won’t change His mind; if it is God’s will, what was the point?

I’ve heard that we do prayers of petition to acknowledge our dependence on God, but otherwise, I don’t get it. I think I’m going to ask my priest next time I meet with him.

 

[TimothyH]

He said those sentences as God. He is God … not matter how slave He was …

Yes, Jesus is God.

Yet God willingly accepted the limitations of becoming human. He cried when his friend died. He got tired and hungry. He prayed to his Father for help. He came into the world helpless in the womb of a peasant girl.

Sometimes Jesus would step out of the limitations placed on him as a human. He walked on water. He fed five thousand with five loaves. He rose from the dead. But he always willingly returned to his humanity, willingly accepted the limitations placed on him as someone who is fully human.

I think the answer to the question, at least for me, is that sometimes he just wants to hear me ask. He just wan’t to know that I trust him. After trying a million things myself, I do what I should have done first - pray. And then things start happening.

And sometimes God just laughs and says, “No.” We have to be willing to accept that.

August 27 was the feast of St. Monica, the patron of mothers. She prayed tears for 40 years that her son, a carousing sex addict, would be converted to the faith. And he was. He became St. Augustine, one of the greatest saints and doctors of the Church.

I think we are sometimes impatient too. And not too willing to accept no for an answer.

-Tim-

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Yes, Jesus is God.

-Tim-

Sorry, I cannot accept that.
It would be as if God was making fun of us when he said: “Ask and it will be given to you”. what would thing of a person who has got a ring to give to his wife but waits for her to ask for it?
Look at Mary. She changed the course of History when she said YES to God. Do you think that God has asked her to be just the Mother of God but would not care for her answer?

I know how you feel: if God knows your decision and God is unchangeable,how does he change his opinions?

Sincerely on the philosophical side of the question, I have no time to develop it but I know that we may change God’s decision as Jesus changed His.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

This question has not been dogmatically defined by the Church; I would say for good reason. The Rabbis believed in this tension between free will and predisposition as well, and didn’t even bother trying to explain. Old proverb: All things are predestined, and yet man has free will. When you ask a question, the Rabbi again responds with : All things are predestined, man has freewill.

There is room for both ends of the freewill/predestination spectrum, whether one leans toward Molinism or Thomism. St Thomas also developed a speculation about “contingency,” such as God seeing all possible outcomes of a given decision, knowing the answer in His predestination, and yet man does freely choose his path. An example can be seen by King David in 1 Samuel 23:1-14, in which David is given two visions of the future depending on the path he chooses. Food for thought.

 

[RobbyS]

Well I am no apologist but I will let God, in the person of Jesus Christ, speak for Himself
Matthew Chapter 6:
5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread; 12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; 13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. 14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Note above that Jesus, who is the Son of God, and God Himself tells us to pray and He tells us how to pray. He does not say - “Don’t pray because you can’t change God’s mind”. He says TO pray and to Pray quietly (in your room) and humbly for Gods Will and not ours to be done.

Add to this, the fact that the Gospels record several instances of Jesus praying and/or going off to pray, Mt 14:23; Mt 19:13; Mt 26:36: Luke 6:12; Luke 9:28; John 14:26;
The entire Chapter of John 17 is a prayer by Jesus to the Father.

So - We pray because we are commanded and commended to Pray.
We Pray because it strengthens us to Pray.
We Pray because Christ Himself Prayed and we seek to imitate our Lord.
We Pray to place ourselves in God’s Holy presence, opening up to Him ourselves and our desires.
We Pray to better understand God’s Will in our Lives.
We Pray that we may Learn
We Pray that we might grow closer to God in Love.

For all these reasons we pray.

I hope this helps some.

Peace
James

Well said. Jesus said to Peter, get behind me Satan. We mustfollow the Lord. We know that his way led to the Cross, his resureection, and his entering into Glory. Our way will not be the same, but we must pray so that we will know which way, leads to Glory. If we do not pray, we risk our salvation. We hope that if we take the wrong path, he will trip us before we blunder into the chasm.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Yes, Jesus is God.

Yet God willingly accepted the limitations of becoming human. He cried when his friend died. He got tired and hungry. He prayed to his Father for help. He came into the world helpless in the womb of a peasant girl.

Sometimes Jesus would step out of the limitations placed on him as a human. He walked on water. He fed five thousand with five loaves. He rose from the dead. But he always willingly returned to his humanity, willingly accepted the limitations placed on him as someone who is fully human.

I think the answer to the question, at least for me, is that sometimes he just wants to hear me ask. He just wan’t to know that I trust him. After trying a million things myself, I do what I should have done first - pray. And then things start happening.

And sometimes God just laughs and says, “No.” We have to be willing to accept that.

August 27 was the feast of St. Monica, the patron of mothers. She prayed tears for 40 years that her son, a carousing sex addict, would be converted to the faith. And he was. He became St. Augustine, one of the greatest saints and doctors of the Church.

I think we are sometimes impatient too. And not too willing to accept no for an answer.

-Tim-

A German friend of mine uses say that her mother used to say often: “Thanks to God that He did not hear my prayers” and “Thanks to God that id did happened what I wished!”.

 

[fred_conty]

Will it ever be explained to our satisfaction?
All we really know is that God is in full control but that we do still have free will.
Even tho God is unchangable yet he told us to ask and if we didn’t we would not receive.
Receiving is contingent upon our asking.

Not knowing the mystery yet following his instructions, is trusting in Him.
And the more trust, the more it moves mountains. Peter learned about trust when
he walked on water until he began to doubt.

 

[SGWessells]

Will it ever be explained to our satisfaction?
All we really know is that God is in full control but that we do still have free will.
Even tho God is unchangable yet he told us to ask and if we didn’t we would not receive.
Receiving is contingent upon our asking.
.

He also said that you would receive what you asked for without exception (restrictions may apply). How’s that working for everyone?

 

[chris62]

He also said that you would receive what you asked for without exception (restrictions may apply). How’s that working for everyone?

I hope you don’t understand that to mean: If I ask for $10 God will give it to me.

Surely you don’t do you?

 

[Danno2281]

Just a few thoughts: Jesus sought the will of the Father in the Garden, but, had He asked, His Father would have sent legions of angels to defend Him (Mt, 26:53). Jesus ‘hour’ (to begin His public ministry) had not yet come, but in response to His mother’s request, He initiates it (“This first of His signs Jesus worked at Cana of Galilee” [Jn. 2:12]).

 

[Swiss_Guy]

This is confusing, but I need to know the answer (if a mortal can comprehend it ), since I’m just one of those persons who likes to know everything.

I think it is clear from scripture that God changes his mind. but it is also clear from scripture that God has predestined what will happen. So if God predestined what will happen, then God knew he would change his mind. Therefore, his mind wasn’t actually changed, since he knew what the end result would be. But in Scripture it said God changed his mind. This doesn’t make sense to me.

Ideas?

 

[SGWessells]

I hope you don’t understand that to mean: If I ask for $10 God will give it to me.

Surely you don’t do you?

I don’t, but Jesus evidently does. John 14:14 says, “if you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.” He doesn’t say, “if you ask anything of me beyond this minimum amount or level”, or “if you ask anything of me, I will think it over and get back to you,” or “if you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it if I think it is in your best interest.” The only qualification Matthew gives is believing. “Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive” (Mat. 21:22). Last time I looked, “whatever” means “whatever.” Not “some things, but not all.”
Now if someone asks for $10.00 in Jesus’ name and believes with unshakable sincerity that he will receive it,** yet doesn’t**, what are we to conclude? Jesus lied? Jesus doesn’t keep his promises? Or Jesus was misrepresented by the gospel authors, calling into question everything else in the gospels? What other alternative is there? Yet similar prayers go unanswered every day, don’t they? Isn’t it a commonplace explanation among Christians whose heartfelt prayers went unanswered that “God said no”? I’ve heard them say it many times. Yet, if the gospels are trustworthy, “God said no” is a direct contradiction of an explicit promise of Jesus Christ himself.

 

[SGWessells]

This is confusing, but I need to know the answer (if a mortal can comprehend it ), since I’m just one of those persons who likes to know everything.

I think it is clear from scripture that God changes his mind. but it is also clear from scripture that God has predestined what will happen. So if God predestined what will happen, then God knew he would change his mind. Therefore, his mind wasn’t actually changed, since he knew what the end result would be. But in Scripture it said God changed his mind. This doesn’t make sense to me.

Ideas?

Welcome to the wonderful world of Biblical nonsense. It can afford you hours of amusement.

The very notion that a God whose knowledge is infinite and wisdom unsearchable could change his mind is in itself a good example of absurdity. What would make such a being change his mind? As you say, he knew every consequence beforehand, so nothing in the outcome surprised him; he cannot make an error in judgment; he has no subconscious mind to play tricks on him; he is not subject to blindness or self-delusion; and no outside force or counter-argument can deceive him or convince him to do something which, on more mature reflection, turned out to be a mistake. So there is no conceivable thing, being, or situation that could make God regret anything he did. Yet he does.
Some say God was just accommodating himself to our way of understanding things so we can comprehend, if only “through a glass, darkly,” his state of mind. But that doesn’t work. In order for God saying “I’m sorry I made Saul king” to be an accommodation, it would have to be similar in some way to our own regrets, otherwise there’s nothing for it to accommodate to. If there were no similarity between God’s regret and ours, we could not identify with God’s emotion, and the accommodation would fail. So God would have to wish he had done otherwise, which for reasons above, seems impossible.
Or if “I’m sorry I made Saul king” means only, “Saul’s failure saddens me,” he still knew it ahead of time yet chose to do it anyway, which doesn’t make any better sense.

 

[chris62]

I don’t, but Jesus evidently does. John 14:14 says, “if you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.” He doesn’t say, “if you ask anything of me beyond this minimum amount or level”, or “if you ask anything of me, I will think it over and get back to you,” or “if you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it if I think it is in your best interest.” The only qualification Matthew gives is believing. “Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive” (Mat. 21:22). Last time I looked, “whatever” means “whatever.” Not “some things, but not all.”
Now if someone asks for $10.00 in Jesus’ name and believes with unshakable sincerity that he will receive it,** yet doesn’t**, what are we to conclude? Jesus lied? Jesus doesn’t keep his promises? Or Jesus was misrepresented by the gospel authors, calling into question everything else in the gospels? What other alternative is there? Yet similar prayers go unanswered every day, don’t they? Isn’t it a commonplace explanation among Christians whose heartfelt prayers went unanswered that “God said no”? I’ve heard them say it many times. Yet, if the gospels are trustworthy, “God said no” is a direct contradiction of an explicit promise of Jesus Christ himself.

And what is asked in Jesus’ name?
If we are asking of Jesus we are not asking things of this world.
We are in the spiritual.
We ask of things spiritual.
And anything you ask spiritually, if you are a spiritual person, if you are on the same playing field, “I will do it.”

I assume that was what Jesus was taking about.

 

[Jkimbo]

We can not asking any thing in Jesus name and expect Him to do it, more nonsense.

More accurate would be if we ask for some thing that is according to God’s Will in Jesus name He will do it for us!

What if some one asked to be a millionaire in Jesus name?
Wish his wife would die In Jesus name?

See the problem?

It has to be in accordance with God’s Will.

I realize some people runaway with that verse, like some Protestant Churches insisting, “all you gotta do is ask”

Read the fine print

 

[SGWessells]

And what is asked in Jesus’ name?
If we are asking of Jesus we are not asking things of this world.
We are in the spiritual.
We ask of things spiritual.
And anything you ask spiritually, if you are a spiritual person, if you are on the same playing field, “I will do it.”

I assume that was what Jesus was taking about.

He does not limit requests he will grant to the “spiritual world.” If accounts of his healing miracles are accurate, he surely would grant prayers “in his name” for healing. Yet many parents have prayed that their children be healed, and they were not. Same with other relatives, and friends.So either Jesus made promises he couldn’t keep,. or he was inaccurately reported; whichever it is, Christians have to make desperate excuses, which the Bible never authorizes, for why God didn’t grant their request when he said he would.

 

[chris62]

We can not asking any thing in Jesus name and expect Him to do it, more nonsense.

More accurate would be if we ask for some thing that is according to God’s Will in Jesus name He will do it for us!

What if some one asked to be a millionaire in Jesus name?
Wish his wife would die In Jesus name?

See the problem?

It has to be in accordance with God’s Will.

I realize some people runaway with that verse, like some Protestant Churches insisting, "all you gotta do is ask

Read the fine print

Jkimbo, I was referring to spiritual requests, which has nothing to do with being a millionaire.

 

[chris62]

He does not limit requests he will grant to the “spiritual world.” If accounts of his healing miracles are accurate, he surely would grant prayers “in his name” for healing. Yet many parents have prayed that their children be healed, and they were not. Same with other relatives, and friends.So either Jesus made promises he couldn’t keep,. or he was inaccurately reported; whichever it is, Christians have to make desperate excuses, which the Bible never authorizes, for why God didn’t grant their request when he said he would.

Everything spiritual will be granted, in Jesus’ name. Also there will be other miracles as well.
Fairly simple.

 

[Jkimbo]

Jkimbo, I was referring to spiritual requests, which has nothing to do with being a millionaire.

My apologies if I misunderstood you, but the subject did remind me of some misconceptions some people have regarding that verse of Jesus. I suppose I was addressing that in a more general way as you might be surprised to the confusion that has had on some people.

 

[SGWessells]

Everything spiritual will be granted, in Jesus’ name. Also there will be other miracles as well.
Fairly simple.

Maybe simple, but not in the biblical text. There are numerous prayers in scripture for such unspiritual things as victory in battle or healing from disease. Jesus made no distinction in this promise between “spiritual” and material requests. Last time I checked, “whatever” still meant "whatever."Jesus told us to ask for, among other things, “our daily bread.” Is that “spiritual”? (Yes, some commentators say it refers to the Eucharist, but even if it does, it refers to daily physical needs as well).

The obvious fact that this promise is rarely fulfilled in the real world is a problem for Bible believers, which is why they have to resort to evasions and qualifications like “spiritual prayers will be granted” or “prayers in accordance with God’s will.” The advantage here, of course, is that such requests are not as easily falsified. Anybody can claim that a “spiritual” request had been granted. If someone prays that his atheist Uncle Elmer would convert before he died, even if Elmer passed away cursing God, the person could claim that he converted at the last moment. If a pious nephew prays that God will bless Aunt Sadie, anything good that happens to Aunt Sadie afterward will seem to be a confirmation that the prayer worked, even though he has no way of knowing that it would not have happened anyway That’s the way a psychological tendency called “confirmation bias” works. We tend to notice and remember what confirms our expectation and forget what doesn’t. .It’s why people believe in astrology and prophecy. If some psychic predicts that twenty specific things will happen by the end of the year, and only one happens,people will be amazed at the person’s psychic powers, and forget that 19 predictions failed.