Why pray?

[steve_b]

To return to a question that I posed, without reply from you:

quote: steve b

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did Mary, Jesus, and Joseph follow?

I would say, they practiced what was perscribed by the law (Moses) but also, Jesus was fulfilling the prophesies of the OT and ushering in the NT in Himself.

BTW reen, there’s a whole slew of questions I’ve asked that you didn’t answer

Don’t feel pressured to answer them. If you don’t want to that’s okay

 

[steve_b]

When one states that part of that believed - by a given group,
seems reasonable or likely, mystification may express:
If you do not believe all that is believed by X, why would you identify
with that faith?

"Identify,’ here = ‘all or nothing.’

The assumption is made that it is to be - ‘all or nothing.’
An additional assumption may express
:
Any belief, concerning God and His relationship with
human beings, has not the ‘seal of approval’ of deity…

• if ‘merely’ personal beliefs are expressed.

No truth value is granted.

The assumption here is that theological reality cannot be known outside of a particular group. :

Who do you think you are, holding beliefs of your own?
By whose authority…?
Don’t you know that…fill in the blank.]

The assumption, implied here, is that one needs [requires?] the
sanction of a given religous group.
Any belief held, outside of a given group, is dismissed out of hand.

Yet here’s where an interesting phenomenon occurs:
If one is a part of a faith group - and one states the beliefs of that group,
now we’re back in a loop:

My religious group has the truth…the whole truth…and nothing but the truth:
Where does it say that?..
You have not the authority…
Only my group is competent to assign truth-value
Didn’t Jesus say?..
You are not competent to render an opinion,
for you are making an assertion based on just you.

…back in the loop

quote: reen12

reen, where is authority for you?

 

[reen12]

quote: reen12

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did Mary, Jesus, and Joseph follow?

I would say, they practiced what was perscribed by the law (Moses)…

True.

quote: steve b

…but also, Jesus was fulfilling the prophesies of the OT and ushering in the NT in Himself.

On what ‘authority’ do you rely - in making this claim?

Jesus was not a God/man.
There was no plan - that involved a ‘savior’ from original sin and personal sin.
Those are both inventions of Christianity.

The parent faith - Judaism - in it’s dominant teaching, rejects
the notion of an ontological sin, a sin in man’s very being.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

No original sin, no need for a ‘savior’ from same.
No divine ‘plan’ that included a ‘savior.’
God Himself, in the Hebrew Scriptures, provides salvation,
mercy, forgivenes and eternal life.

Yet Christianity claims to be the ‘fulfillment’ - of the beliefs of
parent faith.
Most interesting. Cafeteria religion? “This is true, in terms of
the parent faith. This needs ‘nuancing’…?”

Nuancing? *Mosiach *[messiah] now becomes a God/man?

This goes beyond ‘nuancing.’ This is sheer invention,
where the one authority - established by God, is rejected -
and another embraced.

So much for ‘authority.’ Authority exists if I say it exists?

reen12

 

[reen12]

For centuries, Judaism acknowledged God as savior.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

But now the ‘misunderstood’ scriptures reveal a new ‘meaning.’

Mosiach [messiah - ‘the anointed’] now becomes ‘savior.’

Messiah does not mean ‘savior.’
Messiah [Mosiach] = ‘anointed.’

---

It is not up to me - in terms of the canons of logical thought, to prove a negative -

“Jesus was not a God/man.”

It is up to the believer to prove - that Jesus of Nazareth is the God/man, savior.

---

Who gave Christians the ‘authority’ - to go beyond Torah?

If exterior 'authority" is so highly to be prized [in matters of
religious belief] - by what authority did others ‘decide’ that
the beliefs of God’s chosen people now needed ‘nuancing?’

They didn’t ‘understand’ what it ‘meant.’

---

By what ‘authority’ do others claim that revelation was ‘ongoing?’

By what authority did others ‘decide’ - that the beliefs of His
chosen people and Torah - were now to give way to another “authority?”

quote: steve b

I would say, they practiced what was perscribed by the law (Moses)…

“Law” implies ‘authority.’

quote: steve b

…but also, Jesus was fulfilling the prophesies of the OT and ushering in the NT in Himself.

On what authority do you rely, in terms this statement?

---

That one 'decides" [personal decision] to accept exterior
authority - in matters of faith - is a wholly personal decision.

The personal decision - to cede authority - in matters
religious, to a given group, is just that - a personal decision.

Yet by what ‘authority’ does one go beyond Judaic authority
and Torah?
The precise ‘authority’ [Torah] - that Christians acknowledge to have pertained…before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Apparently authority is to be acknowledged - when one ‘agrees’
with same. So much for ‘authority.’

reen12

 

[reen12]

Each human being is the ‘author’ of their own decisions.
In that sense, ‘authority’ is always personal.

And this personal ‘authorship’ brings with it personal responsibilty.
I decide. . One ‘authorizes’ oneself.

One who holds that hell awaits, if a given faith-beliefs are rejected,
states this belief through self-authorization. One has ‘authorized’ oneself
to accept a given set of beliefs - some of which pertain to one’s ‘eternal abode.’

One chooses [authorizes oneself] to accept given writings as statements of truth.

One chooses [authorizes the self] to accept the judgement of others,
in matters of religious faith.
One claims to ‘cede’ authority to a given religious group.
Yet the decision, to cede this authority, is personally authorized.

Each human being is the ‘author’ of their own decisions.

In that sense, ‘authority’ is always personal.

The God of scripture is implausible, at best.

reen12

 

[steve_b]

steve:

…but also, Jesus was fulfilling the prophesies of the OT and ushering in the NT in Himself.

reen:

On what ‘authority’ do you rely - in making this claim?

The Church and scripture. .
reen:

Jesus was not a God/man.
There was no plan - that involved a ‘savior’ from original sin and personal sin.
Those are both inventions of Christianity.

Not inventions, revelation.
reen:

The parent faith - Judaism - in it’s dominant teaching, rejects
the notion of an ontological sin, a sin in man’s very being.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Saul now Paul, a pharisee, then disciple of rabbi Gamaliel, now apostle of Jesus, taught otherwise.

Did you look up rabbi Gamaliel? Here’s a link
newadvent.org/cathen/06374b.htm
reen:

No original sin, no need for a ‘savior’ from same.
No divine ‘plan’ that included a ‘savior.’
God Himself, in the Hebrew Scriptures, provides salvation,
mercy, forgivenes and eternal life.

How does God in the Hebrew scriptures provide salvation, mercy, forgiveness, and eternal life? I’ve asked you this question before.
reen:

Yet Christianity claims to be the ‘fulfillment’ - of the beliefs of
parent faith.
Most interesting. Cafeteria religion?

Judaism split.
Jesus the messiah, Son and Word of God, the one the prophets pointed to that would come, and those who followed Him on one side (Christianity), and those who didn’t follow Him on the other.
reen:

*Mosiach *[messiah] now becomes a God/man?

This goes beyond ‘nuancing.’ This is sheer invention,
where the one authority - established by God, is rejected -
and another embraced.

It’s all the same authority, the same God. OT and NT.
reen:

So much for ‘authority.’ Authority exists if I say it exists?

reen12

 

[steve_b]

For centuries, Judaism acknowledged God as savior.

centuries? Is that all?
reen:

But now the ‘misunderstood’ scriptures reveal a new ‘meaning.’

Mosiach [messiah - ‘the anointed’] now becomes ‘savior.’

Messiah does not mean ‘savior.’
Messiah [Mosiach] = ‘anointed.’

---

It is not up to me - in terms of the canons of logical thought, to prove a negative -

“Jesus was not a God/man.”

It is up to the believer to prove - that Jesus of Nazareth is the God/man, savior.

---

Who gave Christians the ‘authority’ - to go beyond Torah?

Rabbon Gamaliel, certainly knew the law.

newadvent.org/cathen/06374b.htm%between%

 

[steve_b]

Each human being is the ‘author’ of their own decisions.

If you mean we are free to make decisions I agree. Otherwise without free will, we couldn’t be held culpable for anything we do
reen:

In that sense, ‘authority’ is always personal.

And this personal ‘authorship’ brings with it personal responsibilty.
I decide. . One ‘authorizes’ oneself.

One who holds that hell awaits, if a given faith-beliefs are rejected,
states this belief through self-authorization. One has ‘authorized’ oneself
to accept a given set of beliefs - some of which pertain to one’s ‘eternal abode.’

One chooses [authorizes oneself] to accept given writings as statements of truth.

One chooses [authorizes the self] to accept the judgement of others,
in matters of religious faith.
One claims to ‘cede’ authority to a given religious group.
Yet the decision, to cede this authority, is personally authorized.

Each human being is the ‘author’ of their own decisions.

In that sense, ‘authority’ is always personal.

The God of scripture is implausible, at best.

reen12
:doh2:where are you going with this?

 

[reen12]

Consider the deity - to whom we are told to pray -

How do Judeo-Christian scriptures deal with
the existence of suffering and evil?
Particularly the suffering of innocents?

The Book of Job is often referenced, in this regard.
The suffering of an innocent child is not addressed.

The author of Job didn’t want to go anywhere near this reality.
Better to craft a dialog between God and a grown man.
After all, a grown man has had enough time to sin.

The ‘dialog’ with Job, a grown man, does not apply to the 3 year old,
abducted in Portgual last summer, who is all alone in her confusion and terror.
Water to wine, at Cana. No help for a 3 year old.

Mary concerned about the discomfort of the host,
yet Mary does not urge her son to intervene for a 3 year old?

A real 3 year old - not the construct ‘Job.’ A 3 year old who needs the
*real *arms of mommy. Not some wretched, abstract ‘plan’ of divinity,
and the defense of same. A child who suffers alone in horror goes unaided,
while the wedding guests sip a miracle.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Why pray?

In Job, the God we are to pray to plays bully.
“I’m bigger and stronger than you.”

Were you there when I layed out the heavens?

No. Was I supposed to be?

Might makes right?

---

At the end of the tale of the suffering of Job,
all is restored to Job.
There sits Job at a new table, with new dishes and new children.
Children as ‘replaceable.’ Utter farce.

No matter which faith one chooses to authorize -
as one’s particular spokesman [calling same ‘faith’] -
no matter what doctrines are given the nod to,
the harsh fact remains that the ‘defended’ deity is more interested
in his vast eternal plan, than in the suffering of innocents.
Especially an innocent who is subjected to horror all alone,
with no loving arms to hold her.

Jesus was said to sleep in a manger,
with the soft noises of nearby animals singing him to sleep.
He is watched over, protected, and cared, for by loving parents.
Warm straw and the protection of Joseph and Mary.
Unimaginalbe suffering - all alone, for a little 3 year old,
in Portugal, taken suddenly from mommy and comfort and love.

“Let he who has ears, listen.”

Take your own advice.

reen12

 

[Pier]

Why pray?

In Job, the God we are to pray to plays bully.
“I’m bigger and stronger than you.”

Were you there when I layed out the heavens?

No. Was I supposed to be?

Might makes right?

---

At the end of the tale of the suffering of Job,
all is restored to Job.
There sits Job at a new table, with new dishes and new children.
Children as ‘replaceable.’ Utter farce.

No matter which faith one chooses to authorize -
as one’s particular spokesman [calling same ‘faith’] -
no matter what doctrines are given the nod to,
the harsh fact remains that the ‘defended’ deity is more interested
in his vast eternal plan, than in the suffering of innocents.
Especially an innocent who is subjected to horror all alone,
with no loving arms to hold her.

Jesus was said to sleep in a manger,
with the soft noises of nearby animals singing him to sleep.
He is watched over, protected, and cared, for by loving parents.
Warm straw and the protection of Joseph and Mary.
Unimaginalbe suffering - all alone, for a little 3 year old,
in Portugal, taken suddenly from mommy and comfort and love.

“Let he who has ears, listen.”

Take your own advice.

reen12

But these are the sins of MEN!!

 

[reen12]

But these are the sins of MEN!!

I know they are, Pier.

The suffering of that 3 year old, undergoing God knows what -
all alone without mommy, is the price paid for the ‘plan’ of divinity.
There is nothing in this universe - or any other - that ‘justifies’ this horror.

Water to wine. No one there to wipe the tears from the face
that shocked child. It’s bad enough that children suffer.
The mother of a child is with him/her, to help them to endure
suffering.

The mother of Jesus stood nearby to comfort him - and him a
grown man.

A 3 year old child, shocked, alone, and going through what
kind of hell, because of the ‘plan’ of Godhead.

quote: reen12

It’s all about Him, right? Not about that little girl.
The celestial Narcissist, who’s too busy tending to His august ego
‘I"m God, you know’] to take a few moments to rescue a 3 year old
from hellish circumstances.

reen12

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

Because 1 Tim. 2:5 says that Jesus is the one mediator between God and man, and 1 Tim. 2:1-4 makes it clear that this one mediator chooses to mediate himself through us as we pray “intercessory” prayers. We, the Church Militant, join the Church Triumphant, the Saints in heaven, as one Body of Christ to pray for one another and, as Mathew 28:18 says, we also go and makes disciples of all men. This is how Jesus mediates himself. The culminating point of our prayer as the Family of God is in the Mass at the consecration when the glory of heaven opens us so that we together can join in prayer in a spirit of Eucharistic adoration. What an altar call!

 

[steve_b]

Consider the deity - to whom we are told to pray -

How do Judeo-Christian scriptures deal with
the existence of suffering and evil?
Particularly the suffering of innocents?

The Book of Job is often referenced, in this regard.
The suffering of an innocent child is not addressed.

The author of Job didn’t want to go anywhere near this reality.
Better to craft a dialog between God and a grown man.
After all, a grown man has had enough time to sin.

The ‘dialog’ with Job, a grown man, does not apply to the 3 year old,
abducted in Portgual last summer, who is all alone in her confusion and terror.
Water to wine, at Cana. No help for a 3 year old.

Mary concerned about the discomfort of the host,
yet Mary does not urge her son to intervene for a 3 year old?

A real 3 year old - not the construct ‘Job.’ A 3 year old who needs the
*real *arms of mommy. Not some wretched, abstract ‘plan’ of divinity,
and the defense of same. A child who suffers alone in horror goes unaided,
while the wedding guests sip a miracle.

reen12

In the case of Job, who is it that causes suffering and loss for Job? God? NOPE!!! :dts:

In the case of the 3 yr old, who is it that caused the suffering? God? NOPE!!! :dts:

 

[steve_b]

Why pray?

In Job, the God we are to pray to plays bully.
“I’m bigger and stronger than you.”

Were you there when I layed out the heavens?

No. Was I supposed to be?

Might makes right?

---

At the end of the tale of the suffering of Job,
all is restored to Job.
There sits Job at a new table, with new dishes and new children.
Children as ‘replaceable.’ Utter farce.

No matter which faith one chooses to authorize -
as one’s particular spokesman [calling same ‘faith’] -
no matter what doctrines are given the nod to,
the harsh fact remains that the ‘defended’ deity is more interested
in his vast eternal plan, than in the suffering of innocents.
Especially an innocent who is subjected to horror all alone,
with no loving arms to hold her.

Jesus was said to sleep in a manger,
with the soft noises of nearby animals singing him to sleep.
He is watched over, protected, and cared, for by loving parents.
Warm straw and the protection of Joseph and Mary.
Unimaginalbe suffering - all alone, for a little 3 year old,
in Portugal, taken suddenly from mommy and comfort and love.

“Let he who has ears, listen.”

Take your own advice.

reen12

You obviously missed the point of the story.

 

[reen12]

CAF is a Catholic forum.

One expects to encounter belief in a God/man,
and the assertion of a plan of salvation - to include
a savior.

The God of Israel had already granted forgiveness,
mercy, and salvation.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

Christianity is redundant.

---

Additionally - on a Catholic forum, one unsuprisingly
encounters individuals who give their personal approval to a given ‘group’ -
in terms of the group purporting to speak for Godhead.
The individual ‘authorizes’ the group to speak for him/her.

Most interesting.

One often sees this kind of thing in the news.
A given religious group claiming to speak for Godhead.

What makes me smile - is not the beliefs themselves.
It is the assumption… that these beliefs reflect reality.
This ‘assumption’ is then dubbed ‘faith.’
[This may also be known as - ‘the true faith.’]

As you know…

It is clear that…

Only groups are ‘official.’ My group speaks for God.

Don’t you know that…

Would you deny that Christ is the God Man?
This is God’s plan!

Don’t you acknowlege the authority of my group?
Don’t you believe in Jesus? It’s so obvious!

Christians can’t even get together on some of the basics.

reen12

 

[steve_b]

CAF is a Catholic forum.

One expects to encounter belief in a God/man,
and the assertion of a plan of salvation - to include
a savior.

The God of Israel had already granted forgiveness,
mercy, and salvation.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

Christianity is redundant.

on a Catholic forum, one unsuprisingly
encounters individuals who give their personal approval to a given ‘group’ -
in terms of the group purporting to speak for Godhead.
The individual ‘authorizes’ the group to speak for him/her.

Most interesting.

One often sees this kind of thing in the news.
A given religious group claiming to speak for Godhead.

What makes me smile - is not the beliefs themselves.
It is the assumption… that these beliefs reflect reality.
This ‘assumption’ is then dubbed ‘faith.’
[This may also be known as - ‘the true faith.’]

If you are going to be consistent with your thinking, then stop posting the web site you quote above, over and over and over again as if it is your gold standard…

You’ve already admitted what you don’t agree with. You pick and choose through what that web site believes like a person picking and choosing through a buffet line. Where is your conviction and confidence with that?

 

[reen12]

It’s always nice to see devotion to given beliefs,
here on the forum.

Some enjoy spreading the word of a savior, who came
to save humankind… from a non-existent reality.
Conflating ‘messiah’ and ‘savior.’
And a whole religion was built on this
conflatory platform. To wit:

“You can’t be saved without Jesus!”

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

“Original sin has got to go! That’s why we need a savior.”

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

It’s surely understandable that human beings wish to
convey their beliefs about Godhead.

reen12

 

[reen12]

In terms of Why pray? -

From the time that man walked the earth, the question of an afterlife occured.
When people finally got organized, and built cities and civilzations, this
question was still on everyone’s mind. [The ancient Egyptians outdid themselves,
getting ready for the afterlife.]

Running parallel, in the mind, was the thought:
Why do the wicked win, so often - and the good lose?
Life was precarious - in a way that it is not, in our own day.

Mellenia ago, people had to worry about starvation,
if the crops failed. There was worry, too, about the
large empires, all around. You never knew when the
armies of same would swoop down on you.

What to do?

Create gods. One for weather, one for the sea,
one for crop yields, one for battle. [Abram’s father,
Terah, was in the idol making business.]

Polytheism.

It made people feel better, to have a deity to pray to.
There were gods of both genders.

Then God - I AM, steps into His own creation.
He creates a chosen people.

The question may well arise:
How come His people didn’t even know about an afterlife?
Wouldn’t they care about that?

Why would they? Life was hard enough.

Immediate concerns trumped worry about an afterlife.
If the Master of the Universe offered protection and
good crops - and promised to make His chosen
people a powerful kingdom, that was enough.

reen12

 

[reen12]

A long story follows this choosing of a people.
Captivity in Egypt, theodicy at Sinai,
building a Temple, being carried off to Babylon -
one empire, after another, swooping down on the Israelites.

Prophets were sent by God to warn His people.
You are to hold My name sacred.
You are to worship Me alone.
You are to follow My commandments.

If not?

Down swoops another kingdom.

Through time, God’s chosen people thought more about:
“How come the wicked win, so often - and the good lose?”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

They also had time to think about how man got here.
Why was life hard - and so often unfair, even under
the best of circumstances?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

An account of man’s creation and fall is written.
Genesis ‘explains’ why life is so hard.

Later - an idea of an afterlife holds promise…
that those who were good would be rewarded -
in the world to come, and the wicked would
be punished.

This made sense. This was fair.

reen12