Why pray?

[reen12]

Judaism looks outward toward life.
We are to leave the world a better place
than we found it.

A focus on the afterlife is not found, in Judaism -
the focus on the afterlife…so familiar, to ancient Egyptians.

Judaism is concerned with this life - trusting God for
the world to come. Man is to enjoy His creation, turning
back to him teshuva] when he/she sins, yet this is
not to be the focus, in life.

Christianity comes along - and changes this focus.
Now man is said to be born in ontological sin. [original sin]
How is one to be 'saved?" What is the state of
one’s eternal ledger? How can one pare days off of
purgatory?

Is righteousness imputed? Or does an ontolgical change
take place, in man’s very soul?’
Does one require ‘works’? How sure can one be - about one’s
‘salvation?’

Yet the God of Israel has granted salvation, mercy, forgiveness
and life in the world to come. Not just for His chosen people.
But for all people.

Christian theology rolls down the centuries, composing tomes on salvation, types of grace, categories of sin, days off of purgatory, treasury of merit, ‘applied’ indulgences, 'economy of salvation…"

The look inward - not outward, begins…

reen12

 

[steve_b]

It’s always nice to see devotion to given beliefs,
here on the forum.

Some enjoy spreading the word of a savior, who came
to save humankind… from a non-existent reality.
Conflating ‘messiah’ and ‘savior.’
And a whole religion was built on this
conflatory platform. To wit:

“You can’t be saved without Jesus!”

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

“Original sin has got to go! That’s why we need a savior.”

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

It’s surely understandable that human beings wish to
convey their beliefs about Godhead.

reen12

Did you see where the writer of your website believes in reincarnation?

“Sometimes, a soul that has already been here on earth is returned to earth and placed into the body of a child soon to be born. This happens for several reasons. The primary reason is as follows: A person has a job to do on earth. If that job is not done, the soul might have to come down to try again”

beingjewish.com/soul/soul.html

As I’m reading through the site you’re so enamored with, I get the sense the writer is just making up stuff as he goes along.

 

[steve_b]

“Original sin has got to go! That’s why we need a savior.”

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

reen12

From that link.

:
While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam’s sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

God put one stipulation on Adam and Eve. They disobeyed, therefore death came to them.[Gen 3:19] Prior to this, death was not a factor for THEM. Death is the result of original sin.

What about THEIR offspring, the rest of humanity. Eve is called the mother of all humanity [Gen 3:20] Did humanity escape what was put on Adam and Eve, or was it passed on?

 

[johnnydigit]

why pray? many practical modern psychological and biological benefits. helps to calm, to focus, concentrate on “good” (God = good), which in turn bring peace and happiness. patience, endurance, perseverance… basically, name every benefit in the book. this is proven not in just religious context, but in countless scientific studies (look up relaxation techniques, also fasting to improve focus and to cleanse the body is fascinating).

prayer is the key to life, because it is the key to God. if everyone prayed, the world would be at (a better) peace. trust a little and you will see.

"never trust someone who doesn’t pray"

 

[reen12]

Christian theology rolls down the centuries, composing tomes on salvation, types of grace, categories of sin, days off of purgatory, treasury of merit, ‘applied’ indulgences, 'economy of salvation…"

The look inward - not outward, begins…

What of this ‘turn inward?’

-Preoccupation with -----> ‘am I saved?’…
and that which ‘pertains’ to salvation.

----->categories of grace, economy of salvation,
treasury of merit, applied indulgences…

How to ‘get to heaven’ looms large, in Christianity.
‘…Am I saved?’ http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[reen12]

How to ‘get to heaven’ looms large, in Christianity.
‘…Am I saved?’ http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

In terms of Christianity - as with the ancient Egyptians -
the focus is now on an afterlife.

Once again, living in God’s world is thought of as, primarily,
a ‘stage’ of human existence…a way-station of sorts.

Life is described - in one well known Christian prayer, as
‘a vale of sorrows.’

This is totally contrary to the Judaic view of God - and our life in His world.

Between ‘this vale of sorrows’ - and weeks devoted to repentence
and self-accusation of sin [Advent, Lent] no wonder one may view life as
a way-station to the afterlife.

Am I saved? How have I sinned…let me count the ways. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

…The turn inward.

reen12

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hmmm…well, you just showed that the God of Elijah showed His power and the lack of power of Baal. So, I don’t see how you can what you have now said. How can He be as ineffective when He destroyed the prophets of Baal?

That was explained. He can be seen to be ineffective, because what Elijah said then of Baal, is fully as true of God: now, or during WW2. God has become like all once-vigorous gods - He is now as feeble as His Divine enemies were, when He was not feeble but vigorous.​

What is the use, to people now, of a God who was strong & real 2000 years ago, but is now as inactive as Baal was 2800 years ago ? Salvation years ago is useless, to people who need salvation now. God rests on His laurels, & seems to think - or His adorers seem to think - that He can lie back & take His ease because He did something in the long-ago past. Being a God of the past is no use to Christians or Jews (or to anyone else) living now.

A God strong at the Exodus is useless in 1942, **if **He is not still a Saviour. Instead of being a Saviour, He let His people be slaughtered like cattle. That is not salvation. To call it salvation, is to make words meaningless.

People do foul things to another, & always have. Their religion or lack of it has not changed this. It makes much more sense to believe that God is either non-existent, or amoral. At least people will not be hoping in a God Who makes no difference, & waiting for a God to act Who never will. Trust in God is pernicious: it encourages us to think that we cannot help ourselves. But if we do not trust ourselves, we will not take precautions against evil, & it will happen. If people had trusted in God rather than in themselves, they would still be believing that sickness is caused by demons - explaning sickness by demonic action may have suited the NT world, but is rightly rejected now, despite the NT, despite Christianity.

Prayer is self-delusion, of as much use as a placebo - as I pointed out, it makes no difference what one prays to: the Jewish-Christian God, or a six-foot invisible rabbit. The results - or lack of them - will be the same: & at least an invisible bunny does not require belief in fairytales fit only for children & old women. People pray all the time - they are talking into the air: there is nothing to hear them, so why waste time to no purpose? People talk of “answers to prayer” - but never of the countless prayers that are not “answered”: all the millions of miracles at Lourdes that don’t happen; instead the dozen or so things classified as miracles get the attention. But as there are next to no miracles there, maybe there never were any, at Lourdes or elsewhere. When did you last hear any discussion of miracles outside Christianity ? It doesn’t happen - but these things are as significant for other religions, as Christian miracles are for us. That is an artificial view of reality.

Catholicism would be better off if it dropped God in theory, just as it often has in practice. Most Christianity would be exactly the same if it dispensed with all the God-stuff - it would have far more time to do real good to real people, & would be far more credible in every way.

That is the problem

Yes, you’re right. God doesn’t need apologists to defend Him and He doesn’t need a mortal to accuse Him of things that the mortal cannot totally understand.

I understand enough to see that a do-nothing deity is unworthy of belief. His own book condemns Him. So does the Church, by over-defining Him. ​

I have no excuses for God’s behavior. He doesn’t need to answer to us. Though I may not understand it, I trust in Him.

Which is fine for you, individually - what about those who do not; who cannot ? What will you say to them ?​

 

[steve_b]

In terms of Christianity - as with the ancient Egyptians -
the focus is now on an afterlife.

Once again, living in God’s world is thought of as, primarily,
a ‘stage’ of human existence…a way-station of sorts.

Life is described - in one well known Christian prayer, as
‘a vale of sorrows.’

This is totally contrary to the Judaic view of God - and our life in His world.

Between ‘this vale of sorrows’ - and weeks devoted to repentence
and self-accusation of sin [Advent, Lent] no wonder one may view life as
a way-station to the afterlife.

Am I saved? How have I sinned…let me count the ways. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

…The turn inward.

reen12

according to the site you keep posting from, you might be reincarnated so many times you never get to heaven
beingjewish.com/soul/soul.html

from that link (emphasis, mine)

:

Some parts of a person’s spiritual essences remain at the grave for either eleven or twelve months, I forget which. (huh? he forgets!!! )
When a person dies, most of the spiritual elements leave the body. If the person, when alive, focused primarily on spiritual matters, and was engrossed in developing the spiritual self through the study of Torah and the performance of the Commandments, as well as the perfection of characteristic traits, that person will be spiritual.

[snip]

If, however, a person did not do good deeds, or never attempted to perfect his characteristic traits, or never or seldom studied Torah or prayed, that person will be rooted in corporeality. A person who during his life made the physical his primary purpose in life will have a severely underdeveloped spiritual essence. Consequently, that person will be rooted to his body even after death. Such a naranchai will have great difficulty leaving the vicinity of its dead body.

(catch that about prayer, reen? the subject of this thread?)

[snip]

“The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months,” says the Talmud (Sabbath 33b). (purgatory??? why 12 months?)

[snip]

Sometimes, a soul that has already been here on earth is returned to earth and placed into the body of a child soon to be born. This happens for several reasons. The primary reason is as follows: A person has a job to do on earth. If that job is not done, the soul might have to come down to try again.

[snip]

If a person does not accomplish what he has been sent down on earth to accomplish in his first lifetime, he might be sent down to try again. And again. And again. (I do not know if there is a limit.)
huh???

There are numerous other things that can bring someone down again. One example (of many) is someone who has died without paying back a loan or something he stole. He is sent down and given the opportunity somehow to do something for the person he owes the debt to.

[snip]

As long as we are on this physical world, we are unable to express the full holiness of the naranchai. This is because of the sin of Adam and Eve

(catch that reen? even this site says humanity has a flaw from birth due to the original sin of Adam and Eve)

I’ll stop there. You can read the full article. Regarding salvation, It seems you protest Christianity too much.

 

[steve_b]

Catholicism would be better off if it dropped God in theory, just as it often has in practice. Most Christianity would be exactly the same if it dispensed with all the God-stuff - it would have far more time to do real good to real people, & would be far more credible in every way.

Nope!!! :dts:

 

[reen12]

How like God, to choose a tiny group to carry forward
the true knowledge of Him and His Name.

As mega-religions assert, His chosen people
quietly move through the centuries, day after day.

How have His chosen people been treated by
the new mega-religions, at times?
History speaks for itself, in this regard.

Transcending the suffering, across the centuries,
comes the voice of His chosen people.

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad.

“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.”

reen12

 

[reen12]

That was explained. He can be seen to be ineffective, because what Elijah said then of Baal, is fully as true of God: now, or during WW2. God has become like all once-vigorous gods - He is now as feeble as His Divine enemies were, when He was not feeble but vigorous.​

What is the use, to people now, of a God who was strong & real 2000 years ago, but is now as inactive as Baal was 2800 years ago ? Salvation years ago is useless, to people who need salvation now. God rests on His laurels, & seems to think - or His adorers seem to think - that He can lie back & take His ease because He did something in the long-ago past. Being a God of the past is no use to Christians or Jews (or to anyone else) living now.

A God strong at the Exodus is useless in 1942, **if **He is not still a Saviour. Instead of being a Saviour, He let His people be slaughtered like cattle. That is not salvation. To call it salvation, is to make words meaningless.

People do foul things to another, & always have. Their religion or lack of it has not changed this. It makes much more sense to believe that God is either non-existent, or amoral. At least people will not be hoping in a God Who makes no difference, & waiting for a God to act Who never will. Trust in God is pernicious: it encourages us to think that we cannot help ourselves. But if we do not trust ourselves, we will not take precautions against evil, & it will happen. If people had trusted in God rather than in themselves, they would still be believing that sickness is caused by demons - explaning sickness by demonic action may have suited the NT world, but is rightly rejected now, despite the NT, despite Christianity.

Prayer is self-delusion, of as much use as a placebo - as I pointed out, it makes no difference what one prays to: the Jewish-Christian God, or a six-foot invisible rabbit. The results - or lack of them - will be the same: & at least an invisible bunny does not require belief in fairytales fit only for children & old women. People pray all the time - they are talking into the air: there is nothing to hear them, so why waste time to no purpose? People talk of “answers to prayer” - but never of the countless prayers that are not “answered”: all the millions of miracles at Lourdes that don’t happen; instead the dozen or so things classified as miracles get the attention. But as there are next to no miracles there, maybe there never were any, at Lourdes or elsewhere. When did you last hear any discussion of miracles outside Christianity ? It doesn’t happen - but these things are as significant for other religions, as Christian miracles are for us. That is an artificial view of reality.

Catholicism would be better off if it dropped God in theory, just as it often has in practice. Most Christianity would be exactly the same if it dispensed with all the God-stuff - it would have far more time to do real good to real people, & would be far more credible in every way.

That is the problem

I understand enough to see that a do-nothing deity is unworthy of belief. His own book condemns Him. So does the Church, by over-defining Him. ​

Which is fine for you, individually - what about those who do not; who cannot ? What will you say to them ?​

The point made, earlier in this thread, is that to* purport*
that the agony suffered, by a grown man - at the height of his
powers, for several hours - that this somehow ‘justifies’ the suffering of
a 3 year old child, I find such ‘thought’ utterly revolting.

That child’s cries and screams were not heard, after she
was abducted in the night, in Portugal, for God knows what reason.
No mommy near, as her little self cried out in her suffering and
terror all alone.

Jesus had his mother, standing below him, to bring him comfort.

The Romans crucified tens of thousands of human beings. At least they didn’t break his knees - so that he could not push himself up, to draw in breath. He had already expired.That’s how the crucified died. They suffocated - because they became so weak that they could not push themselves up to draw breath. The knees were broken to hurry death.

Mary was concerned about a host’s discomfort,
when the wine ran out, at Cana.

That little 3 year old suffers horrors, all alone, with no loving arms
of mommy to hold her, while the wedding guests sipped a miracle.
Where were Mary and Jesus, for this little one?

Her suffering is ‘justified’ by His* plan*? I find that thought an
outrage, in the face of that child’s terror and suffering, all alone.

reen12

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Nope!!! :dts:

That could be “Nope !” to part or to all of the post ​

The trouble with prayer is that it is unnecessary - there is nothing for it to do. In a world in which man is at the mercy of his environment to a very great degree, it makes sense (of a kind, anyway); but when the environment & the world in general are well-understood, all one has left is a “god of the gaps” religion, with devotional habits to match.

And God is not only unnecessary, He is unidentifiable - Islam, Judaism, Christianity cannot all be right; & all versions of Christianity cannot be right. Orthodox, Catholics, & Calvinists (among others) cannot all be right - yet all make mutually contradictory claims, some threatening dire post mortem penalties if one chooses the wrong body to belong in. Prayer is no use at solving the riddle of which, if any, is right. But the real God, if there be one, is not going to identify Himself; so one is left to guess which claims (if any) are valid or least invalid.

So despite the supposed revelation of God, no one actually knows where it is. Colliding certainties are no certainties at all. And life is just not long enough to find what far wiser folk have not: so why bother with that sort of thing at all ? God is at best unknowable, & an unknowable God is not much use for praying to.

 

[reen12]

Valid, invalid ?
*Name *it - assign ‘accidents.’
The Shekinah hovered over the Ark, refusing his Name.
while humans formed a valid acrostic for agony, thinking this
an adequacy. Deity as Lord of the absurd, with human
acolytes, in their ‘explaining.’ Miserere deus.
Mea culpa. Was it?

“Word salad” as theology.

Words lose their meaning - when they are
used as justificatory implements, in a quest
to exculpate deity.

reen12

 

[steve_b]

That could be “Nope !” to part or to all of the post ​

The trouble with prayer is that it is unnecessary - there is nothing for it to do. In a world in which man is at the mercy of his environment to a very great degree, it makes sense (of a kind, anyway); but when the environment & the world in general are well-understood, all one has left is a “god of the gaps” religion, with devotional habits to match.

And God is not only unnecessary, He is unidentifiable - Islam, Judaism, Christianity cannot all be right; & all versions of Christianity cannot be right. Orthodox, Catholics, & Calvinists (among others) cannot all be right - yet all make mutually contradictory claims, some threatening dire post mortem penalties if one chooses the wrong body to belong in. Prayer is no use at solving the riddle of which, if any, is right. But the real God, if there be one, is not going to identify Himself; so one is left to guess which claims (if any) are valid or least invalid.

So despite the supposed revelation of God, no one actually knows where it is. Colliding certainties are no certainties at all. And life is just not long enough to find what far wiser folk have not: so why bother with that sort of thing at all ? God is at best unknowable, & an unknowable God is not much use for praying to.

you’re in my prayers

 

[reen12]

Man seems to have a need to festoon.

For those willing to accept festoonings:

• the addings onto
  –the further ‘definings’
• sheer speculation, treated as having truth-value http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

all is well.

Doubt, of these festoonings, may be seen as an insult to Godhead.
This is most understandable.

Faith statements express deeply held beliefs, often based on writings
which are held to be divinely inspired.

reen12

 

[the_phoenix]

What of this ‘turn inward?’

-Preoccupation with -----> ‘am I saved?’…
and that which ‘pertains’ to salvation.

----->categories of grace, economy of salvation,
treasury of merit, applied indulgences…

How to ‘get to heaven’ looms large, in Christianity.
‘…Am I saved?’ http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

You raise an excellent point. Here are some quotes from GK Chesterton which I think that all of us … Christians most definitely included … would do well to take note of:

The opposition exists at every point; but perhaps the shortest statement of it is that the Buddhist saint always has his eyes shut, while the Christian saint always has them very wide open. The Buddhist saint has a sleek and harmonious body, but his eyes are heavy and sealed with sleep. The mediaeval saint’s body is wasted to its crazy bones, but his eyes are frightfully alive. There cannot be any real community of spirit between forces that produced symbols so different as that. Granted that both images are extravagances, are perversions of the pure creed, it must be a real divergence which could produce such opposite extravagances. The Buddhist is looking with a peculiar intentness inwards. The Christian is staring with a frantic intentness outwards. – G.K. Chesteron, Chapter 8, The Romance of Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy

leaderu.com/cyber/books/orthodoxy/ch8.html

and also:

The cross has become something more than a historical memory; it does convey, almost as by a mathematical diagram, the truth about the real point at issue; the idea of a conflict stretching outwards into eternity. It is true, and even tautological, to say that the cross is the crux of the whole matter.

In other words the cross, in fact as well as figure, does really stand for the idea of breaking out of the circle that is everything and nothing. It does escape from the circular argument by which everything begins and ends in the mind. Since we are still dealing in symbols, it might be put in a parable in the form of that story about St. Francis, which says that the birds departing with his benediction could wing their way into the infinities of the four winds of heaven, their tracks making a vast cross upon the sky; for compared with the freedom of that flight of birds, the very shape of the Swastika is like a kitten chasing its tail.

In a more popular allegory, we might say that when St. George thrust his spear into the monster’s jaws, he broke in upon the solitude of the self-devouring serpent and gave it something to bite besides its own tail. But while many fancies might be used as figures of the truth, the truth itself is abstract and absolute; though it is not very easy to sum up except by such figures. Christianity does appeal to a solid truth outside itself; to something which is in that sense external as well as eternal. It does declare that things are really there; or in other words that things are really things. In this Christianity is at one with common sense; but all religious history shows that this common sense perishes except where there is Christianity to preserve it.

– G.K. Chesterton, Part 1 Chapter 6, The Demons and Philosophers, The Everlasting Man

worldinvisible.com/library/chesterton/everlasting/part1c6.htm

Navel gazers, kindly take note.

~~ the phoenix

 

[reen12]

Man seems to have a need to festoon.

For those willing to accept festoonings:

• the addings onto
  –the further ‘definings’
• sheer speculation, treated as having truth-value http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

all is well.

Doubt, of these festoonings, may be seen as an insult to Godhead.
This is most understandable.

Faith statements express deeply held beliefs, often based on writings
which are held to be divinely inspired.

reen12

10 commandments became 613 mitzvoth. It was said that these
were conveyed, by God, through Moses. Festooning has begun.

Later in time, the God of Israel - Who saves His people, and all others,
will then be proclaimed as 3 gods in one God, by a wholly new religion -
claiming to be sanctioned by the God of Israel.
Bid farewell to monotheism.

Mankind’s inclination, toward polytheism, displays once again.

The need for a savior is asserted, not a messiah.

The festooning continues.

reen12

Nota bene:

messiah = the anointed
messiah does not = savior

 

[the_phoenix]

Simple question to reen:

Why are you posting to yourself?

Is not this turning inward?

And festooning, as well?

… Make that three questions, then …

~~ the phoenix

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

you’re in my prayers

Thanks - but while that is appreciated, it does not answer any of the questions. There’s not much point in feeling better thanks to someone’s prayers, if the intellectual problems that caused the trouble in the first place are not addressed. That means they will stay unresolved, & cause more trouble later on.​

Thanks again though.

 

[reen12]

You raise an excellent point. Here are some quotes from GK Chesterton which I think that all of us … Christians most definitely included … would do well to take note of:

leaderu.com/cyber/books/orthodoxy/ch8.html

…

~~ the phoenix

I appreciate your observation, the phoenix, and the
Chesterton quote.

In fact, it was the artwork - produced by those
who considered, carefully, the statements of
Siddhartha Gautama - that first drew me to
look into the world-view - which could produce such
exquisite works of art. [Not the stylized buddhas,
to which Chesterton undoubtedly refers.]

In these ink and scroll works, all of nature seems to hover in air -
even the mountains. Man is often seen, in these ink on silk works,
in a very tiny spot - somtimes poling a small boat.

Yet even though the mountains hover above him, man is
seen to be the most ‘alive’ part of the work,
even as much larger phenomena tower o’er him.

Wild Geese Descending to Sand Bar

metmuseum.org/toah/ho/08/eak/ho_1992.337.htm

My complaint with Buddhism is, that - in the end,
man is to detach from all phenomena - even a ‘self.’
In this fashion, a human being will not be reborn into the ‘cycle’ of existence.

Chesterton was way out of his depth, in pontificating
on Eastern thought. That good man should have
cleaved to that which he did understand - and on which he
so aptly commented, on many an occassion - the Christian faith.

Thomas Merton thought Eastern thought was just dandy.
His last work was titled Asian Journal. I read it, many years ago,
and winced…
Merton was a simple ‘enthusiast.’
He seemed to want to be a ‘hermit’ - in the middle of Times Square.

Note the sleeping Buddha, on the cover.

alibris.com/booksearch.detail?invid=9561438889&browse=1&qwork=453055&qsort=&page=1

Maybe Chesterton was right! His eyes are shut. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

Best,

reen12