Why Pray?

[J123M]

I understand that we are supposed to pray but why? If God knows what will happen then why does it matter what we do? Is it just for us to know what God wants and not ask for anything or is there something I’m not seeing?
Thanks in advance for helping me out of my confusion!

 

[R_Daneel]

I understand that we are supposed to pray but why? If God knows what will happen then why does it matter what we do? Is it just for us to know what God wants and not ask for anything or is there something I’m not seeing?
Thanks in advance for helping me out of my confusion!

There are two kinds of prayers: meditative and intercessory prayers. The meditative ones are seeking to get closer to God, or seek unity with God, while the intercessory prayers ask for something.

The intercessory prayers make no sense, for the reasons you mentioned, and also since God is supposed to be immutable, his “mind” cannot be changed by asking for something. If he wishes something to happen it will happen even if you do not ask for it. If he does not wish something to happen, it will not happen, even if you ask for it. The intercessory prayers show the irrationality of those who engage in it.

 

[wardrandolph]

There are two kinds of prayers: meditative and intercessory prayers. The meditative ones are seeking to get closer to God, or seek unity with God, while the intercessory prayers ask for something.

The intercessory prayers make no sense, for the reasons you mentioned, and also since God is supposed to be immutable, his “mind” cannot be changed by asking for something. If he wishes something to happen it will happen even if you do not ask for it. If he does not wish something to happen, it will not happen, even if you ask for it. The intercessory prayers show the irrationality of those who engage in it.

Are you saying that Jesus praying for St.Peter(Satan has desred to sift you like wheat,But I have prayed for you)was irrational?That when Jesus prayed for the church,that they may be one,that He was being irrational?That the commandment to pray for oneanother is an irrational scripture?

 

[R_Daneel]

Are you saying that Jesus praying for St.Peter(Satan has desred to sift you like wheat,But I have prayed for you)was irrational?That when Jesus prayed for the church,that they may be one,that He was being irrational?That the commandment to pray for oneanother is an irrational scripture?

Yes. For the reasons stated above. If God is immutable, his mind cannot be changed, no matter what we do. Was Jesus praying to himself?

 

[simmania]

There are two kinds of prayers: meditative and intercessory prayers. The meditative ones are seeking to get closer to God, or seek unity with God, while the intercessory prayers ask for something.

The intercessory prayers make no sense, for the reasons you mentioned, and also since God is supposed to be immutable, his “mind” cannot be changed by asking for something. If he wishes something to happen it will happen even if you do not ask for it. If he does not wish something to happen, it will not happen, even if you ask for it. The intercessory prayers show the irrationality of those who engage in it.

Then what does Jesus mean in Matthew21 when he says “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer”?

18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.
19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.
22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

 

[LilyM]

I can’t help reflecting on the Gospel yesterday - or more specifically Matthew’s version of the end of it. (Luke’s, which was read yesterday, is somewhat different).

‘If you, being evil, know how to give what is good to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him!’ (Matt 7:11)

Note that God gives TO THOSE WHO ASK.

See, God desires to give us what is good, but His will is that as much as possible we ASK for the good things first, and not just to take them for granted and count on receiving them without making the effort of asking.

His will being immutable doesn’t change the fact that that will is that we ask before we receive. Just like the fact that a parent has decided anyway to give their child an icecream doesn’t change the equally true fact that it’s a good thing for the child to first ask nicely if they can have an icecream. Rather than for the child to merely expect it and show no awareness nor gratitude for the one who gives it to them.

And for many good reasons - it teaches us gratitude, for starters. Reminds us that nothing we have is really our own, none of it comes only through our own efforts, so teaches us humility.

It teaches us to be reflective and thoughtful in regards our needs and those of others - to desire (and so ask God for) things that are worthy, not just to give in to pure greed and selfishness all the time.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I understand that we are supposed to pray but why? If God knows what will happen then why does it matter what we do? Is it just for us to know what God wants and not ask for anything or is there something I’m not seeing?
Thanks in advance for helping me out of my confusion!

This question usually comes about because we don’t seem to get answers to our prayers. The Catechism has quite a lot to say on the topic of prayer, with more than ten percent devoted to it. I might even get around to reading it sometime. I’m afraid I tend to use the Catechism like a dictionary or encyclopedia, only looking up terms when I’ve got a specific query. I don’t read either, but I’ll have to make an exception one day…

I’ve put in paragraph 2725 to begin with.

"THE BATTLE OF PRAYER

2725 Prayer is both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. It always presupposes effort. The great figures of prayer of the Old Covenant before Christ, as well as the Mother of God, the saints, and he himself, all teach us this: prayer is a battle. Against whom? Against ourselves and against the wiles of the tempter who does all he can to turn man away from prayer, away from union with God. We pray as we live, because we live as we pray. If we do not want to act habitually according to the Spirit of Christ, neither can we pray habitually in his name. The “spiritual battle” of the Christian’s new life is inseparable from the battle of prayer. "

---

One thing is clear - the devil wants to stop us praying. He has several things going for him - other people telling us it’s a waste of time; personal dryness; our busyness and ‘lack of time’; the fact we often don’t seem to get what we ask for, without considering whether it’s even in our best interests (not once for example did Christ ask for something material or socially advanatageous for His own personal exclusive use); a misunderstanding of what we are doing; and the utiliitarian world we live in, more so today than at any other time in history.

Then of course there are our own weaknesses. Between them and the devil, it’s an uphill battle.

Yet somehow or other prayer cements our relationship with God.

That’s the main reason.

 

[R_Daneel]

Then what does Jesus mean in Matthew21 when he says “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer”?

18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.
19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.
22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

All you guys have to do is demonstrate this alleged power of prayer, and all the atheists will convert. What are you waiting for?

Read this: theonion.com/articles/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy,475/ , but don’t take it seriously. It is a spoof!

 

[R_Daneel]

I can’t help reflecting on the Gospel yesterday - or more specifically Matthew’s version of the end of it. (Luke’s, which was read yesterday, is somewhat different).

‘If you, being evil, know how to give what is good to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him!’ (Matt 7:11)

Note that God gives TO THOSE WHO ASK.

See, God desires to give us what is good, but His will is that as much as possible we ASK for the good things first, and not just to take them for granted and count on receiving them without making the effort of asking.

His will being immutable doesn’t change the fact that that will is that we ask before we receive. Just like the fact that a parent has decided anyway to give their child an icecream doesn’t change the equally true fact that it’s a good thing for the child to first ask nicely if they can have an icecream. Rather than for the child to merely expect it and show no awareness nor gratitude for the one who gives it to them.

And for many good reasons - it teaches us gratitude, for starters. Reminds us that nothing we have is really our own, none of it comes only through our own efforts, so teaches us humility.

It teaches us to be reflective and thoughtful in regards our needs and those of others - to desire (and so ask God for) things that are worthy, not just to give in to pure greed and selfishness all the time.

You just made the word “immutable” meaningless. Also, I recommend the link to you I posted in the previous reply.

 

[JohnDamian]

Yes. For the reasons stated above. If God is immutable, his mind cannot be changed, no matter what we do.

You are equivocating immutability without the fullest understanding of Catholic theology on omniscience. God’s mind cannot be changed; because God already knows if and what we will pray for; and has already decided. To say that our prayers have an active potency on the intellection of God is to pressuppose that the act itself is not known preeminently.

Meditative prayer centres us on God.
Intercessory prayer gives a request to God.

God’s immutability exerts no contrarity with intercession; as the preminence of omniscience elicits that the volition of the act of prayer and it’s nature nessecarily occurs in a prior way in the intellect of God; which is not *really *distinct from his will; and as such not it’s determinant per se. The act of prayer merely perfects the intellect of God with the free act of man; and the God’s response; immutable as it his will is; nessecarily by view of his omniscience confers the object-formation of his intellect into his praxis. To say that immutibility contradicts intercessory prayer is to deny omnisicence; which is not congruent with Catholic teaching.

 

[LilyM]

You just made the word “immutable” meaningless. Also, I recommend the link to you I posted in the previous reply.

Not at all. Put it this way - let’s say I decide to take my niece to the beach. I may well know beforehand that she’s going to see the icecream stand there and probably pester me for icecream. I may decide at a point well before we leave for the beach, and well before she even thinks of ice-cream let alone mentoning it, that I’ll buy her one - provided she asks.

My will on the matter is indeed immutable - unchanging and unvariable. I will not, for example, change my mind by later deciding to say ‘no’ if she asks for an icecream, or later change my mind and give her an icecream without her asking for it. To do either of those would be what makes my will mutable.

My unwavering and unvarying intent at all times IS to give her an icecream IF she asks for it. The mere fact that my will is expressed in the form of an IF … THEN statement doesn’t make it mutable. My niece’s behaviour can change, but my determination to pursue a particular course of action won’t.

 

[R_Daneel]

You are equivocating immutability without the fullest understanding of Catholic theology on omniscience. God’s mind cannot be changed; because God already knows if and what we will pray for; and has already decided. To say that our prayers have an active potency on the intellection of God is to pressuppose that the act itself is not known preeminently.

Meditative prayer centres us on God.
Intercessory prayer gives a request to God.

God’s immutability exerts no contrarity with intercession; as the preminence of omniscience elicits that the volition of the act of prayer and it’s nature nessecarily occurs in a prior way in the intellect of God; which is not *really *distinct from his will; and as such not it’s determinant per se. The act of prayer merely perfects the intellect of God with the free act of man; and the God’s response; immutable as it his will is; nessecarily by view of his omniscience confers the object-formation of his intellect into his praxis. To say that immutibility contradicts intercessory prayer is to deny omnisicence; which is not congruent with Catholic teaching.

If God already knows what we shall pray for, then the prayer is unnecessary. Of course, as I replied to simmania above, go forth and demonstrate this power of prayer, and you can save all the stubborn atheists who yearn for a physical proof of God. It would take only a few mountains move into the sea at the request of a petitioner to convince them.

I am in a playful mood, so I will direct your attention to the definition of prayer in Ambrose Bierce’s immortal book: “The devil’s dictionary”. “To pray (verb): to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy”. Pretty succinct, wouldn’t you say?

But, jokes aside, if God’s knowledge is contingent upon what we shall ask for, and if God is simple, meaning that God’s knowledge is integral part of his essence, then God’s essence is contingent upon our decisions to pray for something. Not a good prospect for a “necessary” being, whose essence is contingent, eh? (Which makes omniscince also meaningless, next to immutability…)

 

[R_Daneel]

Not at all. Put it this way - let’s say I decide to take my niece to the beach. I may well know beforehand that she’s going to see the icecream stand there and probably pester me for icecream. I may decide at a point well before we leave for the beach, and well before she even thinks of ice-cream let alone mentoning it, that I’ll buy her one - provided she asks.

My will on the matter is indeed immutable - unchanging and unvariable. I will not, for example, change my mind by later deciding to say ‘no’ if she asks for an icecream, or later change my mind and give her an icecream without her asking for it. To do either of those would be what makes my will mutable.

My unwavering and unvarying intent at all times IS to give her an icecream IF she asks for it. The mere fact that my will is expressed in the form of an IF … THEN statement doesn’t make it mutable. My niece’s behaviour can change, but my determination to pursue a particular course of action won’t.

The only real problem with your analogy is that you do not know that there will be an ice-cream shop on the beach. What you talk about is not knowledge, it is merely a probable assumption. Also read the last paragraph in the post directly above.

 

[LilyM]

If God already knows what we shall pray for, then the prayer is unnecessary. Of course, as I replied to simmania above, go forth and demonstrate this power of prayer, and you can save all the stubborn atheists who yearn for a physical proof of God. It would take only a few mountains move into the sea at the request of a petitioner to convince them.

I am in a playful mood, so I will direct your attention to the definition of prayer in Ambrose Bierce’s immortal book: “The devil’s dictionary”. “To pray (verb): to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy”. Pretty succinct, wouldn’t you say?

But, jokes aside, if God’s knowledge is contingent upon what we shall ask for, and if God is simple, meaning that God’s knowledge is integral part of his essence, then God’s essence is contingent upon our decisions to pray for something. Not a good prospect for a “necessary” being, whose essence is contingent, eh? (Which makes omniscince also meaningless, next to immutability…)

You’ve lost me here.Imagine that I plan in two minutes’ time to go and throw a rubber ball from my balcony. I know that at that moment, the law of gravity will operate on that ball, and it will fall to the ground.

And according to you my foreknowledge somehow makes the actual working of the law of gravity unnecessary? Of course not. Without the law of gravity working as it should, the ball won’t fall the way I foresee it falling. The proper operation of the law of gravity is essential to my plan (my will) coming together in the right way.

 

[LilyM]

The only real problem with your analogy is that you do not know that there will be an ice-cream shop on the beach. What you talk about is not knowledge, it is merely a probable assumption. Also read the last paragraph in the post directly above.

Of course I know there will be an ice-cream shop on the beach - I pass it every single day on my morning walk along that beach. It’s not a stand or truck that gets moved around from location to location, it’s a shop - a building in a fixed position halfway along the beach.

I know for a fact it’s open every day of the week, and has been for the last 20 years that I’ve been living in this area. Come rain, sleet or snow, I know that shop’ll be there and open.

 

[R_Daneel]

You’ve lost me here.Imagine that I plan in two minutes’ time to go and throw a rubber ball from my balcony. I know that at that moment, the law of gravity will operate on that ball, and it will fall to the ground.

And according to you my foreknowledge somehow makes the actual working of the law of gravity unnecessary? Of course not. Without the law of gravity working as it should, the ball won’t fall the way I foresee it falling. The proper operation of the law of gravity is essential to my plan (my will) coming together in the right way.

Well, first of all you made a huge change in the playing field. You substituted the volitional act of praying fpr something with the nonvolitional action of gravity. But, be as it may, you do not know that the ball will fall down, you just surmise it - though it is a very probable assumption. Unbeknownst to you there is a very thin net which will capture the ball and hurl it upward as soon as you release it.

 

[R_Daneel]

Of course I know there will be an ice-cream shop on the beach - I pass it every single day on my morning walk along that beach. It’s not a stand or truck that gets moved around from location to location, it’s a shop - a building in a fixed position halfway along the beach.

I know for a fact it’s open every day of the week, and has been for the last 20 years that I’ve been living in this area. Come rain, sleet or snow, I know that shop’ll be there and open.

Except that it burned down the previous night. Omniscience does not equal a very probable assumption. All analogies of omniscience necessarily fail. No need to try it.

 

[LilyM]

Omniscience or lack thereof is totally beside the point. Stop quibbling on irrelevancies.

The main point is that participation of other people, or of non volitional things like the laws of gravity, is often a required and indispensable part of plans coming to fruition. That point stands regardless of whether those be the plans of a non-omniscient being like myself or an omniscient being like God.

God didn’t create us as mere braindead puppets who passively have His will imposed upon us without our knowledge, consent or participation. We are independent, active. Free agents, and thus necessarily CO-agents with Him in bringing His will about.

God may know all, but He doesn’t DO all purely by Himself without our co-operation, our agency if you will. Our prayers are one of the ways in which we co-act and co-operate, and so they are necessary.

 

[antroji]

I agree that intercessionary prayers are futile. Imagine two teams or two countries at oods with each other each asking God to be on their “side.” God doesn’t takie sides, Love IS. The intercessionary prayer siby far most often a petition for a particular result form a highly persona perspecctive. And if that prayer is for “the best outcome.” then that is already taken care of.

That being given, let’s consider what C.S. Lewis said: “I pray not to change God, but to change myself.” Now there is a reason to pray. And by “self” we usually mean personality, that collection of acquired beliefs and perspectives called “me” as distinct from our Soul which might be called “I.”

It is well known that what you focus on tends to manifest, eg, the self-fullfilling prophecy, or focusing on an intended result such as a project until its completion. So if we choose an object or aim mentally, our mind tends to focus and organize our experience around that choice, good or bad or indifferent. The mind doesn’t care who is driving, or what. That is why one needs to be careful what goes into one’s mind and under what consciously aware, or not, state. It is why we compare thoughts and perceptions that come to us to an Ideal.

So prayer might be a tool for spiritual insight and personal change if there are goals one wishes to accomplish in their spiritual life, or if one needs to hold on to a transcendent Truth in a time of crisis when suggestions of temporal consequences are bombarding the senses. Once the efficacy of such prayer is experienced, there is the possibility of exploring the dimentionality of Psalm 46:10–“Be still and know that I AM God.”

 

[R_Daneel]

Omniscience or lack thereof is totally beside the point. Stop quibbling on irrelevancies.

You brought it up, not I. The rest is just hypothesizing. Try to pray for something that is in synch with God’s alleged wishes - for example that all people would be nice, happy, healthy, good natured, helpful, decent, loving… etc. And see if your prayer is fulfilled. It will not. Draw your own conclusions from it.