Why Pray?

[LilyM]

I agree that intercessionary prayers are futile.

Jesus Himself taught us intercessory prayer - the Our Father contains numerous intercessions, and what else was His prayer in the Garden (which was unanswered, by the way, in the sense that He suffered even though He prayed to avoid it) but intercession? As did St Paul, who many times commanded his correspondents to pray for each other in all their needs and requested their intercession on his behalf.

It’s most unwise to call a practice so heartily endorsed by scripture and practiced by Our Lord Himself futile.

 

[LilyM]

You brought it up, not I.

No - I brought up all those examples which, as you so rightly pointed out, did NOT involve omniscience. YOU were the one who kindly pointed that out to me (as if I didn’t already know it - and as if it mattered).

I emphatically did NOT ever bring omniscience up nor say that omniscience mattered.

Foreknowledge matters, but foreknowledge, as my examples showed, does not equate to omniscience.

 

[antroji]

“*Jesus Himself taught us intercessory prayer - the Our Father contains numerous intercessions, and what else was His prayer in the Garden (which was unanswered, by the way, in the sense that He suffered even though He prayed to avoid it) but intercession? *”~QED. Was that teaching or simply the description of someone wishing not to feel pain? And show me tht praying the Our Father other than as a benevolent acknowledgement and gratitude has saved thousands or millions from not having the (what we read as) petitions? I’m also thinking tht there is something lost in the translation of that bit as we know it.

I’m not sure as well that the prayers requested by St. Paul, if they are contained int the half ot the epistles atribbuted to him that he actually wrote, are again not simply requests to keep before the minds of the faithful those ideals they claim to live by rather thatn using the same space of time in mental mundanities.

Sorry, endorsement is in the reading of the beholder, as is the vast majority of scripture. If it was not so, these fora would be empty.

 

[LilyM]

“*Jesus Himself taught us intercessory prayer - the Our Father contains numerous intercessions, and what else was His prayer in the Garden (which was unanswered, by the way, in the sense that He suffered even though He prayed to avoid it) but intercession? *”~QED. Was that teaching or simply the description of someone wishing not to feel pain? And show me tht praying the Our Father other than as a benevolent acknowledgement and gratitude has saved thousands or millions from not having the (what we read as) petitions? I’m also thinking tht there is something lost in the translation of that bit as we know it.

I’m not sure as well that the prayers requested by St. Paul, if they are contained int the half ot the epistles atribbuted to him that he actually wrote, are again not simply requests to keep before the minds of the faithful those ideals they claim to live by rather thatn using the same space of time in mental mundanities.

Sorry, endorsement is in the reading of the beholder, as is the vast majority of scripture. If it was not so, these fora would be empty.

How can you say ANYTHING Our Lord did or said (at least that was recorded - there are many mundane details of His life that aren’t) was not intended as teaching for us? He was only in active ministry for three years at most, He had no time to waste on anything else.

Do we not take His example in all respects as guidance (teaching) for how to live our lives? Do we not in fact consider His prayer in Gethsemane - in its entirety - the best possible way to pray, and strive to pray in the same manner ourselves (some of us even in the same words) when we are in times of trouble?

And regardless of the notion you have of the Our Father, Jesus was nonetheless the intercessor par excellence. How do you think all those people got healed, raised from the dead, exorcised of their demons, except Jesus interceded in prayer for them?

He’s EXPLICITLY shown praying at Lazarus’ tomb before His raising, for example - in full confidence from the start that the Father has heard Him. Heard what, may I ask? Obviously His prayer that Lazarus be raised from the dead.

 

[R_Daneel]

No - I brought up all those examples which, as you so rightly pointed out, did NOT involve omniscience. YOU were the one who kindly pointed that out to me (as if I didn’t already know it - and as if it mattered).

I emphatically did NOT ever bring omniscience up nor say that omniscience mattered.

Yes, I stand corrected.

Foreknowledge matters, but foreknowledge, as my examples showed, does not equate to omniscience.

What you call “foreknowledge” is just an educated guess, not “knowledge”.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, I stand corrected.

Thank you.

What you call “foreknowledge” is just an educated guess, not “knowledge”.

Most all of our human ‘knowledge’, including our ‘foreknowledge’, is rarely if ever anything better than an educated guess. As you’ve pointed out, there’s always the option in pretty much every scenario where we homo sapiens ‘know’ something for us to be mistaken or wrong in some way.

 

[antroji]

Yes, that is a fascinating and important observation that bears much scrutiny and may be a gold mine of insight.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, that is a fascinating and important observation that bears much scrutiny and may be a gold mine of insight.

To whom are you addressing your comment? And what particular observation or observations are you referring to?

 

[antroji]

Sorry; this: “*Most all of our human ‘knowledge’, including our ‘foreknowledge’, is rarely if ever anything better than an educated guess. As you’ve pointed out, there’s always the option in pretty much every scenario where we homo sapiens ‘know’ something for us to be mistaken or wrong in some way. *”

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

“Why pray?”
This answer will make sense to a few. If your prayers aren’t answered, you should pray that they will be. If those prayers aren’t answered, you should pray that your previous prayers in which you requested an answer, will be answered. In summary, an infinite God deserves an infinite duration of prayer.

 

[antroji]

dostoyfan; infinite prayer from a finite being? What exactly do you think prayer is???

 

[R_Daneel]

Most all of our human ‘knowledge’, including our ‘foreknowledge’, is rarely if ever anything better than an educated guess. As you’ve pointed out, there’s always the option in pretty much every scenario where we homo sapiens ‘know’ something for us to be mistaken or wrong in some way.

Well, let’s not go overboard. We know, positively know many things, but that is neitier here, nor there.

This whole exchange was triggered by your post that you may buy an ice-cream if your niece asked for it, but would not buy if she did not - and you added the proviso that you “positively know” that she will ask and that the ice-cream parlor will be there, and it will be opened, and the weather will be nice to take a stroll… and many other things. We can disregard this latter part, and concentrate on the first: “if she asks, you will buy, if she does not, you will not buy”.

Indeed it was my mistake that I neglected to reflect on this part, which is the important one. I apologize for concentrating on the other part.

What you say is perfectly true as far as your example goes. You decided that you will make a conditional action, based upon the request - which is fine for us, human beings. This cannot be applied to God. God’s actions cannot be contingent upon what we ask or do not ask. That would make God’s action contingent upon us, and God is not supposed to be contingent at all. God is “simple”, has no parts, his knowledge and his actions are an inseparable part of his “essence”.

Therefore, our supplication is irrelevant. Whether we ask for something or not, God will do whatever he does. We cannot “nudge” God by a supplicative prayer, therefore supplicative prayers are futile - no matter what the Bible says.

 

[LilyM]

Well, let’s not go overboard. We know, positively know many things, but that is neitier here, nor there.

This whole exchange was triggered by your post that you may buy an ice-cream if your niece asked for it, but would not buy if she did not - and you added the proviso that you “positively know” that she will ask and that the ice-cream parlor will be there, and it will be opened, and the weather will be nice to take a stroll… and many other things. We can disregard this latter part, and concentrate on the first: “if she asks, you will buy, if she does not, you will not buy”.

Indeed it was my mistake that I neglected to reflect on this part, which is the important one. I apologize for concentrating on the other part.

What you say is perfectly true as far as your example goes. You decided that you will make a conditional action, based upon the request - which is fine for us, human beings. This cannot be applied to God. God’s actions cannot be contingent upon what we ask or do not ask. That would make God’s action contingent upon us, and God is not supposed to be contingent at all. God is “simple”, has no parts, his knowledge and his actions are an inseparable part of his “essence”.

Therefore, our supplication is irrelevant. Whether we ask for something or not, God will do whatever he does. We cannot “nudge” God by a supplicative prayer, therefore supplicative prayers are futile - no matter what the Bible says.

I don’t disagree with you that God is simple and that His knowledge and actions are an inseparable part of His essence.

However, God’s knowledge includes, surely, His knowledge of us, His knowledge that we will pray and His knowledge of what we will ask for in our prayer. All of which He knows perfectly well, and all of which knowledge forms part of His ‘essence’ as much as all the other knowledge God possesses.

In my example, it’s not really the act of my niece’s asking me for the icecream that determines my course of action. It’s my guessing beforehand that she will ask.

Now imagine that I WERE completely certain, as only God can be completely certain, that she is going to ask, even to the point of knowing exactly what words she will say and when. Then there would be no contingency at all in the matter. I would be certain to give her the icecream, BECAUSE (partly) of my certain knowledge that she would ask.

Equally, if I were completely certain that she was NOT going to ask (for example, if I knew that the icecream shop was going to burn down and so wouldn’t be there to prompt her), then again there would be no contingency. I would know with certitude that she was not going to ask, and based partly on that knowledge I would be certain not to give her the icecream.

 

[R_Daneel]

I don’t disagree with you that God is simple and that His knowledge and actions are an inseparable part of His essence.

However, God’s knowledge includes, surely, His knowledge of us, His knowledge that we will pray and His knowledge of what we will ask for in our prayer. All of which He knows perfectly well, and all of which knowledge forms part of His ‘essence’ as much as all the other knowledge God possesses.

In my example, it’s not really the act of my niece’s asking me for the icecream that determines my course of action. It’s my guessing beforehand that she will ask.

Now imagine that I WERE completely certain, as only God can be completely certain, that she is going to ask, even to the point of knowing exactly what words she will say and when. Then there would be no contingency at all in the matter. I would be certain to give her the icecream, BECAUSE (partly) of my certain knowledge that she would ask.

Equally, if I were completely certain that she was NOT going to ask (for example, if I knew that the icecream shop was going to burn down and so wouldn’t be there to prompt her), then again there would be no contingency. I would know with certitude that she was not going to ask, and based partly on that knowledge I would be certain not to give her the icecream.

That is fine, but you missed the point. What is the causal relationship between God’s knowledge and our actions?

There are four possibilities:

1. God knows what we do becuase we do it. (Our actions cause God’s knowledge).
2. We do what we do, because God knows it. (God’s knowledge causes our actions).
3. God’s knowledge and our actions are independent, neither causes the other one, they just “happen” to coincide. It is simple a coincidence of cosmic proportions that somehow these two entites “happen” to be the same.
4. Both God’s knowledge and our actions are caused by some external agent.

Think about it, and tell me which do you think is true. Don’t hurry, there is no need. Think them all over. The solution is pretty fun.

 

[antroji]

There is as well, in abstract, a fifth option. And it is fun-damental.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

j123m

I understand that we are supposed to pray but why?

Why not? Prayer is no more nor less than speech from the heart of man to God. Why would we not want to speak to our Creator, and hear His reply in the silence of our souls and in the signs and wonders He has performed?

 

[LilyM]

That is fine, but you missed the point. What is the causal relationship between God’s knowledge and our actions?

There are four possibilities:

1. God knows what we do becuase we do it. (Our actions cause God’s knowledge).
2. We do what we do, because God knows it. (God’s knowledge causes our actions).
3. God’s knowledge and our actions are independent, neither causes the other one, they just “happen” to coincide. It is simple a coincidence of cosmic proportions that somehow these two entites “happen” to be the same.
4. Both God’s knowledge and our actions are caused by some external agent.

Think about it, and tell me which do you think is true. Don’t hurry, there is no need. Think them all over. The solution is pretty fun.

Hmmm … my initial response would be a 5th option with certain elements of #s 1, 2 and 3.

God’s knowledge and our actions are independent to a certain degree, as much as my computer’s actual actions are independent of my knowledge of what that computer will do in any given situation.

It’s entirely wrong, however, to assume that any relation between God’s knowledge and our actions is coincidental, just as it would be wrong to assume my ‘knowledge’ of the computer and the computer’s actions are entirely coincidental.

Of course an aunt knows her niece, a parent knows its child, the Creator knows His creation and a computer user knows his or her computer - so the relationship is not coincidental.

In relation to #1 and #2 - God knows past, present AND future, so the mere fact that God’s knowledge preexists our actions doesn’t mean the former can’t inform the latter. And He created us, knowing what we would be and do. So to that extent His knowledge plays its part in our actions - I suppose He could’ve chosen not to create us. To me the relationship between His knowledge and our actions is a bit like the relationship between the chicken and the egg.

 

[fhansen]

I understand that we are supposed to pray but why? If God knows what will happen then why does it matter what we do? Is it just for us to know what God wants and not ask for anything or is there something I’m not seeing?
Thanks in advance for helping me out of my confusion!

Because what He knows will happen won’t happen unless we ask for it. Everything in our faith demands our participation-even though He initiates it. Our freedom or free will is a meaningless concept unless our role makes a difference.

We’re the ones who need to change and He helps us in this but meanwhile we don’t know the outcome-this is why, for example, salvation is worked out in fear and trembling-our part remains the variable-the wild card so-to-speak.

 

[elvisman]

That is fine, but you missed the point. What is the causal relationship between God’s knowledge and our actions?

There are four possibilities:

1. God knows what we do becuase we do it. (Our actions cause God’s knowledge).
2. We do what we do, because God knows it. (God’s knowledge causes our actions).
3. God’s knowledge and our actions are independent, neither causes the other one, they just “happen” to coincide. It is simple a coincidence of cosmic proportions that somehow these two entites “happen” to be the same.
4. Both God’s knowledge and our actions are caused by some external agent.

Think about it, and tell me which do you think is true. Don’t hurry, there is no need. Think them all over. The solution is pretty fun.

**Actually - I’ve read all your posts on this thread and I find your scenarios lacking the understanding of what God is. I know you’re just trying to have ****fun **with this topic by playing amateur philosopher, but in your quest for fun you fail to grasp the concept of the God of Christianity.

**You see - God is eternal. Imagine him viewing everything as a ****finished **painting. He sees the beginning, middle and the end of our lives all at once because he is not bound by time (Psalm 90:4, 2 Pet. 3:8). When the Scriptures speak of foreknowledge or people talk about God knowing in advance - he doesn’t - he sees it all at once. God can’t even move from one place to the next because he is already there.

**The same goes for predestination. Some verses in the Bible allude to God’s all-encompassing knowledge and describe it as predestination. Most of the predestination spoken of in Scripture is about just *****that *****- his omniscience. Just because God knows our choices and our prayers ****doesn’t ****mean that he didn’t answer them. We still have to ask for what we need even though he knows what we will ask for before we ask it (Matt. 8:6). Neither does it mean that he ordained all of our actions. *****That ***comes from free will.

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If my child breaks my car window, I will forgive that child – but he needs to ASK for forgiveness each time he does something wrong. In KNOW that when confronted with it, he will apologize – but I will not forgive him until he does. Same with God.

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**Finally, God ****does ****hear our prayers but may not answer them in the way ****WE ****want them answered. Jesus told the Apostles that he couldn’t perform miracles in places that had no faith. This supports the idea that it is our FAITH that makes God hear our petitions and answer them, which, in the eternal sense – he already *****has ***. . .

 

[R_Daneel]

Hmmm … my initial response would be a 5th option with certain elements of #s 1, 2 and 3.

God’s knowledge and our actions are independent to a certain degree, as much as my computer’s actual actions are independent of my knowledge of what that computer will do in any given situation.

It’s entirely wrong, however, to assume that any relation between God’s knowledge and our actions is coincidental, just as it would be wrong to assume my ‘knowledge’ of the computer and the computer’s actions are entirely coincidental.

Of course an aunt knows her niece, a parent knows its child, the Creator knows His creation and a computer user knows his or her computer - so the relationship is not coincidental.

In relation to #1 and #2 - God knows past, present AND future, so the mere fact that God’s knowledge preexists our actions doesn’t mean the former can’t inform the latter. And He created us, knowing what we would be and do. So to that extent His knowledge plays its part in our actions - I suppose He could’ve chosen not to create us. To me the relationship between His knowledge and our actions is a bit like the relationship between the chicken and the egg.

Ok. You exclude option #3, because it is absurd. You did not even mention option #4 because it is even more absurd - talking about a cause external to both God and the universe. That leaves option #1 and #2.

If option #1 would be true (God’s knowledge would cause our actions), then we would be simply puppets, playing out God’s knowledge. In this scenario God’s knowledge would not depend on anything, making his essence unconditional and necessary. But this solution goes in the face of what we believe about our free will. So option #1 must be discarded. Though it is possible that we have no free will, but no one believes that.

That leaves option #2. We are free agents, we do whatever we do. God kowns what we do because we do it. He sees the “whole picture” in a timeless fashion. But in this case God’s knowledge is caused by our free actions, so God’s knowledge is contingent upon our actions. This makes God’s essence (which includes his knowledge) contingent. Which is also denied by Catholicism.

Where does that leave us? There are only 4 options, and all lead to absurdities. The only solution is to discard one or more of the premises. There were only a few of them: God is simple, God is necessary (not contingent) and God is omniscient. At least one of these must go. You choose which one. (Personally I discard all three.)