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soma
Guest
Prayer is simply being quiet so God can speak.
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Paul_Rimmer
Guest
Then why does the prayer Jesus says we should say involve so many words?
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elvisman
Guest
I realize you won’t dialogue with me because my arguments might be too difficult for you to debunk - but here goes anyway:
Prayer CAN be silent contemplation as soma stated.
It can also be many words.
It can be few words.
It can be in the form of song.
If you don’t know how or why to pray - read some of the posts from the others . . .
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Paul_Rimmer
Guest
In spite of your exceptionally insulting tone, here goes…
Would you agree that prayer is simply (only) being quiet so God can speak?
Do you ascribe to the mysticism taught at soma’s linked website?
Would you agree that prayer is simply (only) being quiet so God can speak?
Do you ascribe to the mysticism taught at soma’s linked website?
F
fhansen
Guest
Why doesn’t God stop war without our prayers for that matter? God’s in the business of changing recalcitrant hearts, one at a time, until we won’t desire to fight anymore. Meanwhile, no one really wants to turn to Him anyway. We may do so when we see our need. And even then few are going to humble themselves and sincerely cry out to Him for anything at all if their minds are already made up that prayer doesn’t work –so they’ll never be able to test it to begin with.
Once I tried to quit an embarrassingly huge cigarette habit. Actually I tried to quit multiple times over a period of months and years and each time I tried anew, my non-smoking time actually became less- a common problem with addictions. I tried alternatives to smoking and ended up addicted to those, too. I tried burning cartons of cigarettes and within an hour I’d be back at the store for more. I’m not proud of being weak but in any case I was trapped-and finally truly scared by this point. Finally, as a last resort, I called out for help, to my own surprise.
Does God care about little old me and my stupid habit? Of course He does if, not only am I asking for something good by wanting His help in quitting a life-damaging habit but, more importantly, because He’s in the business of little by little drawing/converting/molding us to Him, first of all to faith in Him, and ultimately to love of Him,* if *we’re at some point willing to respond and ask, seek, and knock. Anyway, no one else can know what I experienced but my faith grew. And that was the most important aspect of receiving help. I couldn’t believe I had gone from being totally incapable of quitting to quitting; receiving just enough help that I still had to cooperate-but just a little.
And that was just a step. Later I would have more profound prayers answered in more profound ways. Prayers like one many years ago that resulted in epiphanies, locutions, and visions-all for a purpose-to help someone other than myself this time who’d been thrown into one of the spiritually darkest holes I can imagine and who probably wouldn’t have come out-and be alive today-if it weren’t for that help, of which I was a part but can take no direct credit for.
Now of course I could be crazy, deluded, or lying, etc. but I’d suggest that maybe something’s wrong with a world that simply prefers not to believe in anything much bigger than itself.
And prayers for peace will be answered, BTW-when the world’s ready for it. Gods will is done on earth when we do it.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
R Daneel
*As I said, talk is cheap. And that is all I see around here. *
Then why are you wasting your time here?
*As I said, talk is cheap. And that is all I see around here. *
Then why are you wasting your time here?
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elvisman
Guest
**I guess I would have to redirect you to my last post. Apparently, you didn’t read it. **
I’ll paste it here so you don’t have to go look for it:
Prayer CAN be silent contemplation as soma stated.
It can also be many words.
It can be few words.
It can be in the form of song.
**As for soma’s link - the answer is a resounding, “NO”. **
I do not ascribe to this New Age brand of mysticism.
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Nabby
Guest
This is my argument/response for R Daneel:
Intercessory prayer is necessary for a multitude of reasons, but what I argue here is what I believe fhansen is saying:
Intercessory prayer is necessary for a multitude of reasons, but what I argue here is what I believe fhansen is saying:
God does not stop wars, change hearts, turn people to Him, end world hunger, grant world peace, etc. without our prayer because **God does not, will not, and cannot violate our free will.** God seeks a mutual loving relationship with us individually and, by the very nature and definition of that desired relationship, we must *choose* to love, worship, converse with, and pray to our God if that relationship is ever to exist. If, say, He were to bring an end to a war without our petitioning, that would be to override (or otherwise interfere with) the will/decision of at least one leader to prove his point to the other side(s) of the conflict by force, threat, etc. God cannot interfere with our free will because it would be out of His nature, and God is unchanging. By His nature, God loves and respects us more than we can fathom, and, as I have said, seeks to receive love from us in return. His strongest, ultimate desire is to be with us and for us to be with Him. Thus given that He knows whether or not we will pray, what we will pray for, and whether or not the answer to that prayer will be "yes" in a way we comprehend and agree with, God still wants us to actually partake in the act of prayer, because by prayer we focus on Him and display to Him that our desire, like His, is to form, shape, and deepen a mutual indwelling between ourselves and God.
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antroji
Guest
Nabby, if I was an atheist, I would thank you for explicating the mechanistic/psychological process that actually brings about change. I would further accuse you of extrapolating an unnecessary spiritual component from your statement. In other words, if we decide to change things because we want to, they will change without any interference or assistance from God. So we are still left with the question “What, then, does God have to do with such change, and if ‘He’ does, then how, as God is unchangeable?” What are our presumptions and underlying assumptions about God in this dynamic, and where do they come from?
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Paul_Rimmer
Guest
It seems as though we are having trouble reading what the other has written. I thought the exact same thing (“elvisman must not have actually read my post”). Given this, I recommend we provide for each other an extra amount of leeway and charity in our conversations, presuming always that the other has read our post, but maybe has simply misunderstood it, and respond always in kindness.
Would this be acceptable to you?
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Nabby
Guest
Antroji, I’d like to thank you respectfully for pointing out the part of my argument I left out. I knew there was more that, having written what I did, I had forgotten. Anyway, I’d respond to that by saying that there are many situations in which we may find that we need/want change, help, knowledge, or direction, but are unable to make that desire a reality by ourselves. This is the point where, should it be in God’s will, He would intercede (hence “intercessory prayer”) and bring about that change or reveal to us that knowledge that we were searching for. Now, what I mean to say about how God intercedes and creates change without changing Himself, I mean that God brings Himself to that person, place, heart, community, etc. In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis writes, “We mean God putting a bit of Himself into us, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it.” I believe Mr. Lewis is saying exactly what I mean to say here: God brings change by bringing Himself, His presence. Certainly if God is simple, as R Daneel has said, His presence would bring peace and understanding, because those are qualities and aspects of God. But does this mean that it changes God? Most definitely not. Is that adult changed by teaching the child to write, necessarily? No. While one might argue that this adds to the adult’s experience, knowledge, and understanding, those do not apply to God; being omniscient and, as we have said, able “to see the whole painting” where we only see one metaphorical stroke at a time, as God is the source of all knowledge and understanding.
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antroji
Guest
You are welcome, Nabby. Clearly you are doing your best to see this dinamic. I see your line of thought and why it would be convincing. Nevertheless, I am quite certain there is more to it than that. Unfotunately that part is hidden by the verynature of our language and its assumptions formed as grammar, so they remain opaque to English speakers, as far as I can tell. But they serve, I’m sure, until there is an intuitive insight beyond the form of our learned understanding.
R
R_Daneel
Guest
Because I am wondering if you guys are willing to put your money where your mouth is. So far it was all empty talk, and no one is willing to step up to the challenge and demonstrate that their non-trivial and verifyable supplicative prayer “works”. You, in particular, since your posts are all evasions. Instead of answering, you try to put up another question, and maybe hope that your evasions will not be noticed and remain unchallenged. Which is simply intellectually dishonest.Then why are you wasting your time here?
And no, I am not angry, I am disappointed.
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R_Daneel
Guest
Your PM inbox is full. I could not answer your last PM to me. My answer would have been: OK.
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antroji
Guest
Thanks, R Daneel. When I signed up, my mailbox had a capacity of ten messages. Now, suddenly it is two. Don’t understand why. Anyone? I sent an e-mail to a moderator and got no answer. I guess they are very busy.
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Nael
Guest
Dear J,I understand that we are supposed to pray but why? If God knows what will happen then why does it matter what we do? Is it just for us to know what God wants and not ask for anything or is there something I’m not seeing?
Thanks in advance for helping me out of my confusion!
This is a good question. I understand your confusion. You ask, “When I pray, who am I to tell God what to do, for praying is asking the Lord for something that might not be included in His plans?” But maybe, just maybe, the Lord WANTS us to ask Him. There is a similarity between this issue and the parable of The Pounds. Saying, “God, you are so powerful and you know everything, so who am I to ask you for anything” is similar to the man who received one pound and then said to his master, “Lord, here is your pound, which I kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you did not sow.” Well, it’s not exactly the same but I think the similarity is obvious. In other words, it’s God’s will that we are humans, and as humans we’re supposed to have hope, because it’s God’s will. Therefore, we are supposed to ask Him for things because He WANTS us to. Another example is when you ask a child what he or she wants for Christmas. The child might ask for many things that he can’t get, but it remains a joy to listen to his wishes. I guess God finds joy in us when we talk to Him, even when we ask for the most ridiculous things. I hope this will help you out of your confusion. Actually, I found myself in the same confusion about a month ago and this answer was what I came up with. Take care and may God bless you.
R
R_Daneel
Guest
So you agree with the first officer. ( infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html ) Of course there are many other instances, when there is no human activity (and therefore no “free will”) involved, like an excessive drought and the prayer would be directed toward some rain. Yet, there is no sign that such a prayer is “answered” affirmatively. Or maybe you could contemplate the facetitious “news” from the Onion: theonion.com/articles/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy,475/
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R_Daneel
Guest
Not sure. But you have two parts of your mailbox. The incoming mail and a copy of the messages you sent. Check both of them. You can select any or all messages and delete those you no longer want to keep around.
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antroji
Guest
Yes, thanks. I try to keep up with that, but am not sure if I delete my out box, if tht deletes it just for me, or the recipient as well. Maybe the moderator will have mercy on me and answer my e-mail, or eventually I will earn enough brownie points to get more capacity. But it is an unfair tease to have space for ten and then get an 80% cut!
Maybe if someone complains that I’m way off topic here, the moderator will actually engage me in conversation and explain what happened?
Maybe if someone complains that I’m way off topic here, the moderator will actually engage me in conversation and explain what happened?
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antroji
Guest
The definition of prayer that I learned was that it is “lifting the heart and mind up to God.” We, as Catholics, have our particular associations with what that means both in theory and practice. However, there may be another direction of consideration here.
As a generalized or abstracted pattern of human activity, we can see that it is universal, I would hazard, among us to wish results. I’m talking about any results in any situation where we perceive an need or desire for change or outcome. So what we do is image that outcome and our brain organizes information about factors pertinent to that dynamic in such a way that the outcome is the functional focus of that consideration. That is true from making pancakes to building fusion bombs to getting to Aunt Dora’s for tea. Or posting on here.
Sometimes we get into a dynamic we feel part of for which we wish an outcome, but it is bigger than what we might be able to personally handle. It might involve factors we cannot personally manipulate, such as weather, germs, or unknown factors. These constitute THE UNKNOWN. We cannot see or manipulate, actually, most, if any factors in our life beyond simple processes. But there are solutions for many of these, and that is why we value creativity.
Being both an artist and a writer, and having something to do at times with construction and industry, I am often faced voluntarily or not with a blank, either as a starting point or as a problem. I do what anyone in my position does: I concentrate my mind on the pertinent factors, manipulate them until I have done all I can, acknowledge that there is much I don’t know, and wait to see what comes to me. Sometimes I can’t wait and do what I can and gain hindsight or just do teleological things, and sometimes I wake up shouting “Eureka.”
In either case, I do not, other than acknowledging the immensity of the Unknown, feel I have talked with God or any of His minions, though I do not dismiss that such are around, communicating in unknown ways as may be their wont. Personally, my experience of an even remotely similar dynamic is restricted to dealing with other people’s pets. Not much success there. So I put it mostly on myself and my felt connectivity with the principles of existence and manifestation as functional in me as a human.
In this regard, it is interesting to note that there are parts of our own mind we don’t have immediate conscious access to. That applies to other modes of awareness, as I have experienced, from medical and recreational drugs, to spiritual insights and altered states through meditation or serendipity. There is an interesting bit about some of that here. I also know that the mind has an inordinate inherent need to be right, for whatever reason.
And it can misperceive things according to its intentions or prejudices. I once saw a “flying saucer” exactly like what was filmed on several occasions over Mexico City. On analysis, it was without a doubt a plastic shopping bag carried aloft, as were those saucers in the film. So though I’m quite convinced from my and other’s experience that there are unexplained aerial phenomena, this one was a bag only seeming to be what I thought at first it was.
All that is to say that intercessionary prayer is at best, IMHO, a comfort, but not a functioning relationship as many claim. Does God “hear” our prayers? I’d say yes, but not even remotely in the popularly “understood” way. So in conclusion I would say that prayer as so labeled is the name within a religious framework of what in a larger context is a known and respected methodology for problem solving, but which is religiously attributed to Deity as a telepathic capacity due to lack of self knowledge and piety.
That said, my statement does not inherently deny God or the efficacy of prayer, as it is simply the delineation of a function largely mis-attributed due to faith and/or ignorance, not to mention unfortunate and debilitating, IMHO, misconceptions about God as IS, as distinct from as thought/believed about. Neither should these statements be taken to inhibit the need or efficacy of simply contemplating the immense magnitude, power, beauty, and plain astonishing wonder of Universe and its Source as a way of getting beyond personality to whatever it is that constitute the propensities of Soul. It can as well be a way of organizing the mind around a perceived ultimate Good, religious or not.
As a generalized or abstracted pattern of human activity, we can see that it is universal, I would hazard, among us to wish results. I’m talking about any results in any situation where we perceive an need or desire for change or outcome. So what we do is image that outcome and our brain organizes information about factors pertinent to that dynamic in such a way that the outcome is the functional focus of that consideration. That is true from making pancakes to building fusion bombs to getting to Aunt Dora’s for tea. Or posting on here.
Sometimes we get into a dynamic we feel part of for which we wish an outcome, but it is bigger than what we might be able to personally handle. It might involve factors we cannot personally manipulate, such as weather, germs, or unknown factors. These constitute THE UNKNOWN. We cannot see or manipulate, actually, most, if any factors in our life beyond simple processes. But there are solutions for many of these, and that is why we value creativity.
Being both an artist and a writer, and having something to do at times with construction and industry, I am often faced voluntarily or not with a blank, either as a starting point or as a problem. I do what anyone in my position does: I concentrate my mind on the pertinent factors, manipulate them until I have done all I can, acknowledge that there is much I don’t know, and wait to see what comes to me. Sometimes I can’t wait and do what I can and gain hindsight or just do teleological things, and sometimes I wake up shouting “Eureka.”
In either case, I do not, other than acknowledging the immensity of the Unknown, feel I have talked with God or any of His minions, though I do not dismiss that such are around, communicating in unknown ways as may be their wont. Personally, my experience of an even remotely similar dynamic is restricted to dealing with other people’s pets. Not much success there. So I put it mostly on myself and my felt connectivity with the principles of existence and manifestation as functional in me as a human.
In this regard, it is interesting to note that there are parts of our own mind we don’t have immediate conscious access to. That applies to other modes of awareness, as I have experienced, from medical and recreational drugs, to spiritual insights and altered states through meditation or serendipity. There is an interesting bit about some of that here. I also know that the mind has an inordinate inherent need to be right, for whatever reason.
And it can misperceive things according to its intentions or prejudices. I once saw a “flying saucer” exactly like what was filmed on several occasions over Mexico City. On analysis, it was without a doubt a plastic shopping bag carried aloft, as were those saucers in the film. So though I’m quite convinced from my and other’s experience that there are unexplained aerial phenomena, this one was a bag only seeming to be what I thought at first it was.
All that is to say that intercessionary prayer is at best, IMHO, a comfort, but not a functioning relationship as many claim. Does God “hear” our prayers? I’d say yes, but not even remotely in the popularly “understood” way. So in conclusion I would say that prayer as so labeled is the name within a religious framework of what in a larger context is a known and respected methodology for problem solving, but which is religiously attributed to Deity as a telepathic capacity due to lack of self knowledge and piety.
That said, my statement does not inherently deny God or the efficacy of prayer, as it is simply the delineation of a function largely mis-attributed due to faith and/or ignorance, not to mention unfortunate and debilitating, IMHO, misconceptions about God as IS, as distinct from as thought/believed about. Neither should these statements be taken to inhibit the need or efficacy of simply contemplating the immense magnitude, power, beauty, and plain astonishing wonder of Universe and its Source as a way of getting beyond personality to whatever it is that constitute the propensities of Soul. It can as well be a way of organizing the mind around a perceived ultimate Good, religious or not.
- Status