Why Pray?

[Counterpoint]

Counter question - - Why not pray?

I ask this because it seems your OP does not really provide much information.
I pray because God, my creator, exists. Because He exists and because he desires that we communicate - I talk to Him. I praise Him, thank Him, share with Him and Ask Him for things (mostly help ).

So - having shared this - I look forward to your answer to my question. “Why not pray”?

The OP limits the definition of prayer to petitionary prayer (or prayer of entreaty). (It doesn’t appear that you or others here understood that…even though it was clearly stated in the OP.)

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philipians 2:13

If God is working out everything for a greater good, then why do I have to petition him to do this or that? Or, why do have I have to pray to an intercessor to make the petitions of my finite mind known to the infinite mind? The very act of engaging in such a practice reveals a lack of faith on the part of the practitioner. I should only have to trust that everything is working out for a greater good (even if I don’t understand all the particulars). I see no reason to petition God.

“Prayer is a way offered by the Holy Spirit to reach God…It cannot succeed until your realize that it asks for nothing.” - “The Song of Prayer” - a supplementary text to “A Course In Miracles”

 

[Counterpoint]

How can He help if we do not talk to Him. Why should He?

“Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?” - Matthew 6:30

 

[Counterpoint]

Given the restriction presented by your definition, I would say you should not pray. Why? Because God is not a vending machine, beholden to your requests.

You are to be commended for actually reading the OP.

 

[Counterpoint]

I was told by a few people that instead of saying the same prayers over and over, its best to just speak to God, Mary, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, like you would speak to a friend, in fact they said this is what God wants, he wants us to have a relationship with him and treat him like we would any other friend.

Im not sure how accurate this is though, regarding how the CC feels about it.

I don’t have any other friend who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.

 

[Counterpoint]

Since you refer to Websters’ dictionary for you OP on the definition of prayer to God, what does Webster say about the God you refer to . Webster has many definitions for God. Once we can establish that then we can proceed. Webster also defines prayer as the act or practice of praying as to God (not directly to God but as to God) You are a stickler for words, thats why I must be specific.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (all three of the Abrahamic religions) espouse the practice of petitionary prayer.

 

[Counterpoint]

I think this is an excellent question. First, before others complain, I would like to stress that the question is limited to prayers of petition and intercession.

Hallelujah! Somebody actually read my OP and perceived the profundity of the question.

The answer to the question is above reason, it is a mystery, quite similar to predestination.

Exactly.

In God’s providence, prayer is as necessary for the spiritual harvest as the sowing of seed is for the material harvest. Prayer is itself a seed, given to us by God, that carries with it, by his own decree, the harvest of the world’s salvation.

But who is doing what? What part does God play and what part do we play?

We may well find on the last day that there is for us no fruit of grace, nothing of eternal value, that is not the result of prayer.

So, what is it the result of?

 

[catholicscot]

I was told by a few people that instead of saying the same prayers over and over, its best to just speak to God, Mary, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, like you would speak to a friend, in fact they said this is what God wants, he wants us to have a relationship with him and treat him like we would any other friend.

Im not sure how accurate this is though, regarding how the CC feels about it.

I think that if you can pray that way it is a good thing but it has its problems too. It can end up being all about you and it doesn’t necessarily help transform you from who you are into who Jesus would like you to be. If God did not want us to use liturgical prayers then He would not have inspired the Book of Psalms or the Our Father.

Sometimes you don’t want to speak to your friends or you feel you have nothing to say. It can be the same with spontaneous prayer, you can keep putting it off until you are in the right mood. With something like the Rosary or any other devotion and still more the Sacrifice of the Mass you can perform or attend it whatever mood or state of mind you are in. The actions themselves can change your mood and raise your mind and heart to God and even if you are as cold at the end as you were at the beginning that’s still a part of the day you have given to God and not to man so adding to the treasury of grace that our Lady distributes to sinners.

On frequent, repetitive prayer I recently blogged this which you might find helpful-

The unexpected power of this prayer lies in the simple fact that a word is never just a word and a phrase is never just a collection of words. Every time we name something or enunciate a concept, even if we do it hurriedly or only half consciously, then it invokes with it a connection of memories and associated ideas and emotions. These act upon us as frequently as we invoke them and that they may be doing so at a level below our awareness does not make them any the less powerful. If we say, for example, I do believe, Lord: help my unbelief. then we will be recalling a particular episode from the Gospel, we will be imaginatively entering into the lives of our Lord, His Disciples and those who went to seek Him and we will be making a plea for conversion which, in its turn, calls into our mind and heart the recollection how much and for why we so desire to be converted. All of this occupies but a few seconds of the day and much of it occurs, as I said, at a level below our discursive mind’s awareness. Nonetheless, repeat the action dozens of times a day and thousands of times a year then it will have a gradual transformative effect upon our very souls.

 

[catholicscot]

I know that there other forms of prayer besides petitionary prayer. That is precisely why I limited the definition of prayer in the OP to petitionary prayer.

If God is good, then why would God not always act for what is ultimately good?

If man is free and chooses sometimes to perform actions which are wicked how does God maintain the balance between permitting freedom and ensuring good outcomes? The innocent who suffer from the wickedness of the guilty can receive justice and compensation in time, ie this world, or eternity, or both. All three outcomes are ultimately good and the presence of faith and the practise of prayer are factors involved in determining which outcome applies to which person or situation.

 

[JRKH]

I was told by a few people that instead of saying the same prayers over and over, its best to just speak to God, Mary, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, like you would speak to a friend, in fact they said this is what God wants, he wants us to have a relationship with him and treat him like we would any other friend.

Im not sure how accurate this is though, regarding how the CC feels about it.

This is a fine way to pray. the Church has nothing negative to say on this (extemporaneous) prayer.

The OP limits the definition of prayer to petitionary prayer (or prayer of entreaty). (It doesn’t appear that you or others here understood that…even though it was clearly stated in the OP.)

Actually I did see that and I actually did address this aspect in my reply.

I just wanted to get some more information from you so as to be better able to answer

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philipians 2:13

If God is working out everything for a greater good, then why do I have to petition him to do this or that? Or, why do have I have to pray to an intercessor to make the petitions of my finite mind known to the infinite mind?

Well - you don’t have to. But we often find it helpful.

The very act of engaging in such a practice reveals a lack of faith on the part of the practitioner. I should only have to trust that everything is working out for a greater good (even if I don’t understand all the particulars). I see no reason to petition God.

I disagree with the idea that it shows a lack of faith…maybe a lack of trust or courage on our part.
Also I think that, just as having conversation with friends, we can gain greater insights by making petition and awaiting the outcome.

Of course I understand that you see no reason to petition God, but for the Christian, since God has asked us to freely do so, we see no reason not to.

“Prayer is a way offered by the Holy Spirit to reach God…It cannot succeed until your realize that it asks for nothing.” - “The Song of Prayer” - a supplementary text to “A Course In Miracles”

Interesting

Peace
James

 

[Counterpoint]

If man is free and chooses sometimes to perform actions which are wicked how does God maintain the balance between permitting freedom and ensuring good outcomes? The innocent who suffer from the wickedness of the guilty can receive justice and compensation in time, ie this world, or eternity, or both. All three outcomes are ultimately good and the presence of faith and the practise of prayer are factors involved in determining which outcome applies to which person or situation.

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that we should engage in petitionary prayer to ensure that the perpetrators of crimes receive their just punishment and the victims of those crimes are properly compensated?

 

[catholicscot]

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that we should engage in petitionary prayer to ensure that the perpetrators of crimes receive their just punishment and the victims of those crimes are properly compensated?

No. I am suggesting that we pray that those who suffer or who cause suffering receive the benefits of healing and conversion. The outcome in time or eternity or both will always be just and merciful whether we petition or not because God is just and merciful but the process by which that outcome is reached and the point in time at which it is reached (if reached in time rather than eternity) is affected by prayer.

 

[Counterpoint]

No. I am suggesting that we pray that those who suffer or who cause suffering receive the benefits of healing and conversion. The outcome in time or eternity or both will always be just and merciful whether we petition or not because God is just and merciful but the process by which that outcome is reached and the point in time at which it is reached (if reached in time rather than eternity) is affected by prayer.

Okay. Let’s see if I understand you. Are you saying that God’s ability to heal is more effective when we pray for healing?

 

[VincentChristop]

repetitive prayer should be used towards meditating on how to manifest to do the will of god.

silent prayer should be used towards contemplating and discerning if you are really praying for others or yourself.

Prayer is not supposed to be use to wish for things. Prayer is supposed to be used to get closer to God.

This is why people don’t understand the power of prayer. Because people pray for things in a broad perspective.

 

[VincentChristop]

Okay. Let’s see if I understand you. Are you saying that God’s ability to heal is more effective when we pray for healing?

This is the ultimate ability of God. When you think you are praying for others, and your prayers are fullfilled.

It heals yourself more than it heals them. In the sense that you lost trust in God by praying for someone in a selfish thought.

prayer should focus on bring people closer to God. not earthly desires (including health)

this is something people will disagree with me, but this is how i see it.

 

[VincentChristop]

And it is said.

Prayer brings you CLOSER to God.

And that is the main reason we pray.

We do not pray to God so he answers. We pray so that when God does answer it will bring us closer to God.

Which people seem to misunderstand.

 

[JackVk]

The OP does ask a legitimate question, one I myself have been pondering lately.

Yes, God will always give us what we need, regardless of whether we ask for it. However, I think it’s a non sequitur to say that this means we should not pray. Petitionary prayer, it seems, is to help the believer come to understand God’s will. It certainly doesn’t hurt to ask God for something, even if the answer is “no”. God would not hold it against someone for wanting an intrinsic good, much like a parent (if they’re not abusive) wouldn’t get mad at their child for wanting a toy. But, that helps the child understand the parent more, albeit to a limited extent.

Thank you, Counterpoint, for picking our brains.

 

[catholicscot]

Okay. Let’s see if I understand you. Are you saying that God’s ability to heal is more effective when we pray for healing?

Since it’s not what I said its reasonable to infer that its not what I meant. Why not skip all the rhetorical questions and go straight to the killer punch line you prepared before starting the thread? Then we can start honestly debating.

 

[ynotzap]

What if by our prayer of petition leads us to God who can answer our petitions, and each time we ask we find ourselves at His feet, only to realize that He uses our prayers to bring us to Him to realize and discover Him who is our greatest need. If you have God what do you need. and if you don’t have God, what have you.

 

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

Okay. Let’s see if I understand you. Are you saying that God’s ability to heal is more effective when we pray for healing?

Since it’s not what I said its reasonable to infer that its not what I meant. Why not skip all the rhetorical questions and go straight to the killer punch line you prepared before starting the thread? Then we can start honestly debating.

This is what you stated your previous post: “The outcome in time or eternity or both will always be just and merciful whether we petition or not because God is just and merciful but the process by which that outcome is reached and the point in time at which it is reached (if reached in time rather than eternity) is affected by prayer.”

So, it seem to me that you are arguing that we pray to God in order to speed up the process - the process of divine healing and meting out divine justice.

 

[Counterpoint]

I disagree with the idea that it shows a lack of faith…maybe a lack of trust or courage on our part.

A lack of trust demonstrates a lack faith.

Also I think that, just as having conversation with friends, we can gain greater insights by making petition and awaiting the outcome.

So, what insights have you gained through your petitionary prayers? Can you give me an example?