Why Pray?

[tonyrey]

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that we should engage in petitionary prayer to ensure that the perpetrators of crimes receive their just punishment and the victims of those crimes are properly compensated?

It is a mistake to regard ourselves as isolated individuals who have no effect on the destiny of others. We are members of a family whose prayers and actions can influence all our lives. One person, like Jesus or Hitler, can have an incredible effect on humanity - for better or for worse. The butterfly effect in action…

The prayer “Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us” reconciles divine justice with divine mercy.Would you ignore the plea of a child not to punish another as severely as he or she deserves? That would be inhuman and not a sign of perfection but obsession - reminiscent of the Pharisees’ legalism. Intercession is not futile but fertile…

 

[jonathan_hili]

Merriam-Webster defines “prayer” as “an address (as a petition) to God” and “an earnest request or wish.”

With that definition in mind, I pose the following question: Why pray?

(This is the philosophy forum. So, I expect a response that appeals to rational argumentation. IOW, don’t appeal to the authority of the Scriptures or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.)

Hi,

I don’t really understand your question, to be honest. If praying is addressing a petition or earnest wish, how does it not make sense to pray (especially to God) if you wish this desire fulfilled.

Now, is there a hidden presumption in your question, namely, “If God is omniscient and eternal, the author of a predestined divine plan, how can praying make sense or be efficacious?” Is that right?

If so, I’d suggest that this is a modal problem: if X then Y; if not Y, then not X; where X is a state of affairs and Y a prayer by a believer or number of believers. Consequently, it makes sense for a believer to pray to God, since this modal formula would be part of God’s omniscience, which is eternal.

 

[Counterpoint]

I don’t really understand your question, to be honest. If praying is addressing a petition or earnest wish, how does it not make sense to pray (especially to God) if you wish this desire fulfilled.

“Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” Matthew 6:34

 

[Counterpoint]

It is a mistake to regard ourselves as isolated individuals who have no effect on the destiny of others. We are members of a family whose prayers and actions can influence all our lives. One person, like Jesus or Hitler, can have an incredible effect on humanity - for better or for worse. The butterfly effect in action…

The prayer “Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us” reconciles divine justice with divine mercy.Would you ignore the plea of a child not to punish another as severely as he or she deserves? That would be inhuman and not a sign of perfection but obsession - reminiscent of the Pharisees’ legalism. Intercession is not futile but fertile…

I trust that God is working it out.

I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
whispering words of wisdom
“let it be.” - Lennon and McCartney

 

[Counterpoint]

The prayer “Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us” reconciles divine justice with divine mercy.Would you ignore the plea of a child not to punish another as severely as he or she deserves? That would be inhuman and not a sign of perfection but obsession - reminiscent of the Pharisees’ legalism. Intercession is not futile but fertile…

I have a very different understanding of Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness than you. As I see it, we are required to forgive in order to be forgiven. That’s how it works.

 

[JRKH]

I have a very different understanding of Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness than you. As I see it, we are required to forgive in order to be forgiven. That’s how it works.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Jesus said (to paraphrase) that the measure we use to judge others will be the measure used by God to judge us.

But that said - I cannot help but note that since this phrase, "“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”, comes from the prayer that Jesus himself taught us…One has to assume that there IS benefit to prayer.

From a movie I saw years ago (Shadowlands) comes this line…
“I pray because I can’t help it… It pours out of me day and night… My prayer doesn’t change God, it changes me.”
(or something like that )

Just some thoughts…

James

 

[tonyrey]

I have a very different understanding of Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness than you. As I see it, we are required to forgive in order to be forgiven. That’s how it works.

How is yours different?

 

[Counterpoint]

But that said - I cannot help but note that since this phrase, "“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”, comes from the prayer that Jesus himself taught us…One has to assume that there IS benefit to prayer.

Yes, technically speaking, this a petitionary prayer. But what supplicant is asking for here is something spiritual, not material. And even here, we do not really need to pray to God to forgive us. What we need to do is to practice forgiveness and we will experience forgiveness accordingly (whether we pray for it or not).

From a movie I saw years ago (Shadowlands) comes this line…
“I pray because I can’t help it… It pours out of me day and night… My prayer doesn’t change God, it changes me.”
(or something like that )

Exactly. We can pray: “God make me an instrument of thy peace.” But unless we truly practice peace, then we will never experience peace.

 

[Counterpoint]

How is yours different?

You apparently believe that we are instructed to forgive those who have trespassed against us in order to ensure that they will be punished accordingly…that divine justice will be carried out. (This is not really a prayer for forgiveness. It’s a prayer for revenge in which you ask God to do your bidding.)

 

[JRKH]

Didn’t have time to look it up this AM but here is the exact quote from the Movie “Shadowlands”…
That’s not why I pray, Harry. I pray because I can’t help myself. I pray because I’m helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn’t change God, it changes me.
(Bolding mine)
I can’t think of a better or more succinct expression in answer to the title question…

Yes, technically speaking, this a petitionary prayer. But what supplicant is asking for here is something spiritual, not material.

Agreed, but your title and OP make no distinction here…
And as I said, It was God Himself in Jesus Christ who instructs us to pray…

And even here, we do not really need to pray to God to forgive us. What we need to do is to practice forgiveness and we will experience forgiveness accordingly (whether we pray for it or not).

Amen - but is it is good to pray for the grace to forgive.

Exactly. We can pray: “God make me an instrument of thy peace.” But unless we truly practice peace, then we will never experience peace.

So let us ask (pray) for God to grant us the grace to practice peace.

I think that what we are starting to get at here is this…
It does little or no good to ask God form material things if we are not willing to first ask for spiritual things.
If we look at the prayer Jesus taught us and go through each of the 5-6 (by my count) statements or petitions - we can see how little of it pertains to anything material.

So first we need to pray for God will in our lives, for our daily needs (not wants) , for the grace to forgive, and for His protection and guidance.
To me this is what one needs to build their prayer life around.

Peace
James