Why "progressives" beat the tar out of "traditonalists"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nota_Bene
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nota Bene:
The combat continues to ratchet-up. Once they found out it was us that are making the changes, they first told us to stop in a very high and mighty manner. To that we provided documentation from the Church to support what we were doing.

With that, they began to tell us in increasingly harsh terms to stop what we were doing. We are at a point where they now try to physically undo what we have done. Thankfully we have enough moles to telephone us within minutes if something is changed back. Many times other orthodox parishioners will now change things back on their own.
Click to expand...
Your parish is simply out of control. I feel sorry for the majority of the parish - innocent bystanders who must wonder just what is going on.

As I’ve said in other threads, your priest needs to step forward and take the responsibility he was assigned to - controlling the parish.
 
Nota Bene:
The Baltimore Catechism is extremely dated. There is FAR better catechetical material available…
Click to expand...
In what way is it dated? Did the Faith change? No it didn’t, so then this catechism is still good to use, unless you object to the following:
**

2. Q. Who is God?​

Click to expand...
A. God is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things.

10. Q. How shall we know the things which we are to
believe?

A. We shall know the things which we are to believe from the Catholic Church,
through which God speaks to us.
**
Yes and these better materials have caused Americans to have been under catechized, right?
 
Nota BEne what are you calling pure conjecture? in my post this morning. I live only a mile from my parents I know whats going on in my family. I wouldnt want a kid of mine seeing an incorrect Mass either, because it would be setting a bad example. It would be teaching the child that it is okay to disobey the Holy see…when you have children, your children come first, the parrish comes second!
 
Bene,
We’'ve had a battle going on for some time with our pastor about abuses during Mass and other related items.
We’ve spoken to him, written to him, written to the bishop. So far no response except anger from the pastor.
If I could get onto the liturgy committee, I’d be there in a minute, but I don’t have a chance.
He can’t chase me out of the parish and he can’t refuse me
Communion, and I’m in the battle for the long run.
All we ask is a Mass said in accordance with the GIRM, to which we have a right.
It’s a shame we have to fight to simply follow the rubrics.
 
40.png
aspawloski4th:
Nota BEne what are you calling pure conjecture? in my post this morning. I live only a mile from my parents I know whats going on in my family. I wouldnt want a kid of mine seeing an incorrect Mass either, because it would be setting a bad example. It would be teaching the child that it is okay to disobey the Holy see…when you have children, your children come first, the parrish comes second!
Click to expand...
“…I think like the political liberal/conservative debate, the religous debate is similer in the respect that the conservatives are busy working their jobs, raising their kids, and keeping up their homes, while the liberals have neglected those things. with the jobs I worked Ive alwaysa wondered where liberals get the time for all those demonstrations myself…”

Your comments above from your earlier poster. Nothing but your opinion. Opinion that certainly can be universally applied…
 
40.png
Strider:
Bene,
We’'ve had a battle going on for some time with our pastor about abuses during Mass and other related items. We’ve spoken to him, written to him, written to the bishop. So far no response except anger from the pastor. If I could get onto the liturgy committee, I’d be there in a minute, but I don’t have a chance.
He can’t chase me out of the parish and he can’t refuse me
Communion, and I’m in the battle for the long run. All we ask is a Mass said in accordance with the GIRM, to which we have a right.
It’s a shame we have to fight to simply follow the rubrics.
Click to expand...
I went through the same thing with my former pastor (left 3 months ago) and my current bishop (set to retire in September.)

When our new pastor came on board, we simply began to act. I have a great deal of respect for bishops/priests but I won’t be the recepticle of their anger either.

Like you note, he cannot chase you out of the parish (unless you did something really horrific) or refuse you Communion – so why not take a chance or two?
 
40.png
katolik:
In what way is it dated? Did the Faith change? No it didn’t, so then this catechism is still good to use, unless you object to the following:

Yes and these better materials have caused Americans to have been under catechized, right?
Click to expand...
The Baltimore Catechism is horribly dated. Here’s what Fr. Robert Levis, PhD (a priest who specializes in catechetics)had to say about its use today:

Adult Catechism?
Question from Chistopher Topston on 07-18-2001:

Dear Fr. Levis;

I’m a member of a rather “liberal” parish. There are however a few more orthodox members and I was wondering if it would be OK to form an “Adult Catechetics” group using the Baltimore Catechism as a text?

Do you think we would face a lot of resistance, like no mention in the bulletin, tough to get a meeting room, etc?

I don’t want to offend others, but my nightly reading of the Baltimore Cathecism has been a very positive experience.

Finally; is there a version/edition that you would recommend? I know there are quite a few re-prints out there. Would it make sense to use something like Fr. Hardon’s Catechism? Thanks; Chistopher

Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 07-19-2001:

Dear Christopher,

Tremendous idea, but caution!!! A few suggestions. Don’t use the Baltimore Catechism since it doesn’t contain the insights of Vatican 2 and thus can be legitimately debunked. I would suggest, without a doubt, that the final text shoule be the Catechism of the Cath. Church, the big 800 page text. There are condensations of it ( I have one available) and I suggest you begin with that. Many of the major commentaries on this Catechism debunked it severely so one must be very careful here. Actually I doubt much whether or not this Catechism is accepted fairly by the American Catechetical Establishment. I fear it has been shelved in very many places. So even to choose this text will bring the wrath of many catechists upon your shoulders. You are one of the few Catholics who see the need of basic catechetics, how mistakes here lead to interminable mistakes in morals and worship. So I want to encourage you, but be ready for a fight, a big fight. God bless you. Fr. Bob Levis

(P.S. Learn some HTML or leave the tags alone…)
 
I would be curious to know exactly what “vatican 2 insights” he feels the baltimore cat. fails in? Vatican 2 didn’t throw out everything before it - it confrimed it.

Regardless of that issue, I’m not interested in teaching my children “insights” on the catholic faith - I want them to learn THE Catholic faith itself.

I’m familiar with that 800 page book he recommends as it was used in my RCIA class and it should be chucked out the nearest window.
 
Rob's Wife:
I would be curious to know exactly what “vatican 2 insights” he feels the baltimore cat. fails in? Vatican 2 didn’t throw out everything before it - it confrimed it.

Regardless of that issue, I’m not interested in teaching my children “insights” on the catholic faith - I want them to learn THE Catholic faith itself.

I’m familiar with that 800 page book he recommends as it was used in my RCIA class and it should be chucked out the nearest window.
Click to expand...
Fr. Levis is speaking of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (CCC) To suggest that it “should be chucked out the nearest window” is to voice a most un-Catholic position. One would have to be extremely limited to suggest the BC was a suitable substitute for the CCC.

The BC is dated. * Horribly* dated.
 
when it comes to using it as the basis for teaching the faith - it is not better than the BC. That is NOT to say it is not worthy of study, but it is not helpful for young children (which is what originally got the subject brought up). The BC is the BEST material and most accurate and most clearly stated material for CCD classes and I can’t imagine using the CCC with a bunch of 2nd graders to prepare them for FHC.

I repeat the request: WHAT exactly is it that makes the BC “dated” - is the information wrong? is the information unclear? does the information contradict current official church teachings? If something becomes unworthy of use simply because it’s been around a few decades or more, well THAT sure doesn’t bode well for the future of the Church does it?
 
Rob's Wife:
when it comes to using it as the basis for teaching the faith - it is not better than the BC. That is NOT to say it is not worthy of study, but it is not helpful for young children (which is what originally got the subject brought up). The BC is the BEST material and most accurate and most clearly stated material for CCD classes and I can’t imagine using the CCC with a bunch of 2nd graders to prepare them for FHC.

I repeat the request: WHAT exactly is it that makes the BC “dated” - is the information wrong? is the information unclear? does the information contradict current official church teachings? If something becomes unworthy of use simply because it’s been around a few decades or more, well THAT sure doesn’t bode well for the future of the Church does it?
Click to expand...
**WHAT exactly is it that makes the BC “dated” ??
  1. It is Pre-VATII
  2. The SSPX uses it exclusively for children and catechumens. Therefore it must be schismatic also.
  3. It’s doesn’t leave enough “wiggle” room.
  4. It still thinks evangelizing means converting someone to the Catholic Church.
  5. The answers don’t have enough exceptions.
  6. It teaches unbaptized infants do not enter heaven as saints. AND, they have Original sin on their souls when they die and therefore have no sanctifying Grace! yep, I saw it.
  7. It condones the death penalty outright…prisons are more secure today vs the flimsy 20ft thick dungeons of yesteryear.
  8. It teaches that the True Church of Christ IS the Holy Catholic Church. vs it subsists in…like an egg subsists in a chicken.
  9. most clearly stated material.**
    **
    I’m tryin to get to 10, but getting sleepy. Someone else
    finish the last 1.
    Wait, I got It!
  10. Not a word about ecumenism or dialogue in a “positive” sense.
    Bonus:
  11. It keeps refering to the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” instead of the “lord’s supper”.
  12. It doesn’t use the word “mystery” enough.
  13. How can you destroy the Catholic Church if people start teaching and believing that stuff?
    **** And last but not least, my favorite:**
To destroy a Religion, you must first
Click to expand...
sever its traditions.
 
Nota Bene:
To suggest that it “should be chucked out the nearest window” is to voice a most un-Catholic position. One would have to be extremely limited to suggest the BC was a suitable substitute for the CCC.

The BC is dated. * Horribly* dated.
Click to expand...
What would you call what happened to the BC?
Oh, yea:
**chucked out the nearest window.
(**a most un-Catholic position)
One chuck deserves another.

BTW:
There are 4 teaching levels of the BC in separate books.
And yes, the Roman Catholic Church was terribly deficient under St Pius X and Pius XI. I blame that on the “guidance of the Holy Spirit” in those very primitive times. Mostly because he let St Thomas Aquinas dominate their theology.
.
 
Rob's Wife:
when it comes to using it as the basis for teaching the faith - it is not better than the BC. That is NOT to say it is not worthy of study, but it is not helpful for young children (which is what originally got the subject brought up). The BC is the BEST material and most accurate and most clearly stated material for CCD classes and I can’t imagine using the CCC with a bunch of 2nd graders to prepare them for FHC.

I repeat the request: WHAT exactly is it that makes the BC “dated” - is the information wrong? is the information unclear? does the information contradict current official church teachings? If something becomes unworthy of use simply because it’s been around a few decades or more, well THAT sure doesn’t bode well for the future of the Church does it?
Click to expand...
You lost all credibility when you said you would trash the CCC. Stick to the BC – it might be all that you can handle.
 
40.png
TNT:
What would you call what happened to the BC?
Oh, yea:
chucked out the nearest window.
**(**a most un-Catholic position)
One chuck deserves another.

BTW:
There are 4 teaching levels of the BC in separate books.
And yes, the Roman Catholic Church was terribly deficient under St Pius X and Pius XI. I blame that on the “guidance of the Holy Spirit” in those very primitive times. Mostly because he let St Thomas Aquinas dominate their theology.
.
Click to expand...
Getting emotional is not going to change the fact that the BC is *horribly *dated.
 
40.png
katolik:
Oh yes “traditionalists” are evil for leaving their “geographical parish boundaries” which are not enforced and haven’t been for years! It is trully evil to go to an Indult Mass in an beautiful, old dilapidated church which needs repairs instead of the local suburban church!!
Actually I have heard of trad’s who have taught CCD at NO churches… They were thrown out for using the Baltimore catechism.

Perhaps trads want to live and peace and raise their children as Catholics? Hmm, what can be done to a parish where the priest uses at least 5 em’s per Mass? You have to change the priest to get any progress in the parish?
Click to expand...
I did not say it was evil to find a latin Mass, I said that if you abandon your current parish because you don’t like what is going on, you are surrendering the field to those you disagree with. you can’t be part of the change and restoration if you are not part of the parish. If you are teaching the BC instead of the CCC you should be reminded that we are one, holy, Catholic and apostolic, we teach CCD ONLY under the authority of the bishop and have no right to teach our personal preferences. that is exactly the crime of the so-called progressives, who teach what they want instead of with the mind of the Church
 
Well, I for one am curious Nota which catechetical series you would recommend? I ask this respectfully with no hint of sarcasm.

I think the BC is very complimentary to the Ignatius Press series (forget the name), and the CCC.

“Horribly dated” seems a tad harsh. Especially when, in this day and age, most Catholics don’t even know the basics of the faith which is in the BC. It does a fine job with the basics, even though it is “old”. Present those basics, then expound upon them with a good, solidly Catholic catechetical series along with the CCC. (although, according to Abp Hughes, who is head of the Ad Hoc Committee for the USCCB on catechetics, MOST “up-to-date” catechetical series are woefully deficient)

Also, Fr. John Hardon’s Question and Answer catechism would serve well too (that, along with his Catechism of the Catholic Faith).

Thoughts?
 
Nota Bene:
Getting emotional is not going to change the fact that the BC is *horribly *dated.
Click to expand...
Great rebuttal
A liberal chucks…not emotional.
A trad chucks…emotional
Rock solid!
BTW:
Horribly dated is newspeak for Trent-ian and Thomistic
Or, lack of immanentism.

And Horribly is not emotional…as of today.
Why? Because a liberal used it for sound argument.

Which brings me to my second favorite:
Liberalism : A mental disorder wherein the Illogical becomes completely logical with no lasting effect on the conscience.
 
I have nothing against the BC or CCC. To place them at odds seems queer to me. Are there 2 separate Churches? One before 1962 and one after? Which teachings on faith and morals have changed?
 
40.png
Kevirish01:
Well, I for one am curious Nota which catechetical series you would recommend? I ask this respectfully with no hint of sarcasm.

I think the BC is very complimentary to the Ignatius Press series (forget the name), and the CCC.

“Horribly dated” seems a tad harsh. Especially when, in this day and age, most Catholics don’t even know the basics of the faith which is in the BC. It does a fine job with the basics, even though it is “old”. Present those basics, then expound upon them with a good, solidly Catholic catechetical series along with the CCC. (although, according to Abp Hughes, who is head of the Ad Hoc Committee for the USCCB on catechetics, MOST “up-to-date” catechetical series are woefully deficient)

Also, Fr. John Hardon’s Question and Answer catechism would serve well too (that, along with his Catechism of the Catholic Faith).

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The CCC is in a class by itself. That’s what I would recommend. That said I also value the Hardon Q&A catechism and the series from Ignatius. I also like Fr. Bob Levis’ * Jesus, the Catechesim and Me*

Yes, there certainly is a great deal of garbage out there so one must be careful, but one need not resort to a horribly dated work like the BC.

On a side note I have great hopes for the upcoming “national catechism” for the USA. Expect it to be orthodox so long as JPII is at the tiller…
 
40.png
puzzleannie:
I did not say it was evil to find a latin Mass, I said that if you abandon your current parish because you don’t like what is going on, you are surrendering the field to those you disagree with. you can’t be part of the change and restoration if you are not part of the parish. If you are teaching the BC instead of the CCC you should be reminded that we are one, holy, Catholic and apostolic, we teach CCD ONLY under the authority of the bishop and have no right to teach our personal preferences. that is exactly the crime of the so-called progressives, who teach what they want instead of with the mind of the Church
Click to expand...
Yes, YEs, YES!!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top