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alitaptap
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Or why do Catholics have seven more books in their old testament?
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Holly3278
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The answer is simple. During the Protestant “Reformation” the Protestants removed these fully inspired books of Scripture from the Bible. As a result, Protestants have an incomplete Bible.
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Oumashta
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One of the main reasons why I want to leave protestantism!
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BendedKnee
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I was never taught why we lack the seven books, I was told thats the way it is. The Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry provides some reasons here: carm.org/reasons-why-apocrypha-does-not-belong-in-bible But these seems to be justifications presented after the fact.
The Reformers, esp. Luther, found great parts of Scripture (in the NT and OT) to be uninspired and/or doctrinally inaccurate and cut them out. They sort of “copy and pasted and deleted” parts of the Bible in order to fit their ideas. So, instead of building doctrine according to that which is set forth in Scripture, as they claimed on should, the rebuilt Scripture according to their invented convictions.
Thankfully, the Lord has been able to provide me with a set of Bibles that hold the full canon.
The Reformers, esp. Luther, found great parts of Scripture (in the NT and OT) to be uninspired and/or doctrinally inaccurate and cut them out. They sort of “copy and pasted and deleted” parts of the Bible in order to fit their ideas. So, instead of building doctrine according to that which is set forth in Scripture, as they claimed on should, the rebuilt Scripture according to their invented convictions.
Thankfully, the Lord has been able to provide me with a set of Bibles that hold the full canon.
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beeliner
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This subject crops up frequently here, and is more complicated than is obvious at first glance, hardly ‘simple’ as poster Holly suggests. She does not mention, for example, that these books’ canonicity was in dispute within the Roman Church for centuries.
Nor did Luther ‘copy, paste and delete’. He viewed the deuterocanonicals as worthy of reading and study, but containing no doctrine. The KJV also included these books until a special edition without them was prepared for Calvinists, who for reasons now obscure regarded the books less favorably than Lutherans and Anglicans.
Today most new translations are the result of interdenominational scholarship and include the deuterocanonicals. No one in mainstream Christianity is trying to suppress them!
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cargau
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My understanding is that the Jewish Canon only accepted Scripture that was written in Hebrew. The book of Maccabees, for example, was written during the Greek occupation, thus it was written in Greek. The Greeks did a pretty good job of imposing their culture on conquered territories. Funny, although the story of Hannakuh was never actually chronicled in Scripture, it occurred during this time.
The Protestants chose to adopt the Hebrew books already selected in the Jewish canon. Thus, no non-Hebrew books were admitted. This is known as the Proto Canonical books. The Catholic understanding of inspired Scripture included some non-Hebrew books and was known as (still is) the Deutero Canonical books.
Personally, I believe the books were removed in order to better match up with the theology that was being proposed…
The Protestants chose to adopt the Hebrew books already selected in the Jewish canon. Thus, no non-Hebrew books were admitted. This is known as the Proto Canonical books. The Catholic understanding of inspired Scripture included some non-Hebrew books and was known as (still is) the Deutero Canonical books.
Personally, I believe the books were removed in order to better match up with the theology that was being proposed…
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NotWorthy
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And yet this is not complete. The Dead Sea Scrolls have bits and pieces of 6 of the Deutero’s in Hebrew.
And the Jews didn’t close their canon until the 14th century. Even in Jesus’ day, there was much dispute on what constituted Scripture among the Jews.
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beeliner
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- Wrong, the date was around AD90.
- Correct, that was prior to AD90.
- Actually, there are nudist churches.
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St_Kevin
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Evangelicals have 7 less books because those extra books are not inspired by God. St. Jerome was against adding those extra books but was forced to put them in the back of the Bible by the Pope. Eventually, as years went by, the books were moved into the middle of the Bible.
Macabees has errors in them. Dates are wrong, among other things.
Macabees has errors in them. Dates are wrong, among other things.
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St_Kevin
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18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus is looking at Peter making the above statement. Therefore, “this rock” cannot be a reference to Peter, or even Jesus, but rather Peter’s statement previously spoken.Common sense tells you this; & the early church taught it.
The church was built on Peter’s statement.
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beeliner
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So do many if not all of the protocanonical books.
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beeliner
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Gee, I dunno, your sainthood, since “Peter” means rock, “You are Rock, and upon this rock…” seems pretty straightforward, The word in Aramaic is kepha.
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BrianH
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If I could ask your source for your first statement
I just posted a link on another thread that says three.
In 1999, several scholars collected and translated these biblical scrolls and published them as The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible (Harper Collins 1999), translated by and with commentary by Martin Abegg, Jr., Peter Flint, & Eugene Ulrich (hereafter “DSC”). These scholars describe the biblical content of these scrolls as follows:
Parts of every book of the the Jewish and Protestant Old Testament are included, with the exception of Esther and Nehemiah. In addition, some other books now included in Roman Catholic Bibles were found at Qumran [the site of this Essene community]: Tobit, Ben Sira (also known as Sirach or Ecclesiasticus), and the Letter of Jeremiah (also known as Baruch 6).
catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2003/05/dead-sea-scrolls-and-deuterocanonical.html
Dead Sea scrolls
Fragments of three deuterocanical books have been found among the Dead Sea scrolls found at Qumran. Sirach, whose Hebrew text was already known from the Cairo Geniza, has been found in two scrolls (2QSir or 2Q18, 11QPs_a or 11Q5) in Hebrew. Another Hebrew scroll of Sirach has been found in Masada (MasSir).[7]:597 The Book of Tobit has been found in Qumran in four scrolls written in Aramaic and in one written in Hebrew.[7]:636 The Letter of Jeremiah (or Baruch chapter 6) has been found in cave 7 (7Q5) in Greek.[7]:628
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books
Part of the evidence they present is the existence of Deuterocanonical books in the Qumran scrolls (Dead Sea scrolls). In these scrolls were found parts of three Deuterocanonical texts giving the impression that there was very little distinction between a closed canon and all other texts. They note that both “scriptural” texts and secular texts are included together, with no apparent distinction.
infpage.com/concordance/dtbooks.htm
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cargau
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I find your interpretation interesting… So much of what evangelicals espouse is a literalist understanding of Scripture except when it doesn’t fit the theology. Then, there is an explanation that deviates from the exact wording…
It seems to me that Scripture, which is the inspired word of God is bent to justify your beliefs rather than searched to discover truth. I know of quite a few Evangelicals who, quite frankly, are exceptional people. I would love to one day realize their level of piety and faith. Still, I just don’t get it. Why don’t you good people all come home where you belong???
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BrianH
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It seems that 90 AD is being alluded to as well. Just to clarify any misinformation about what did or did not occur.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
Some cautionary points should be noted here:
*1. Although Christian authors seem to think in terms of a formal council at Jabneh, there was no such thing. There was a school for studying the Law at Jabneh, and the rabbis there exercised legal functions in the Jewish community.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
Some cautionary points should be noted here:
*1. Although Christian authors seem to think in terms of a formal council at Jabneh, there was no such thing. There was a school for studying the Law at Jabneh, and the rabbis there exercised legal functions in the Jewish community.
- Not only was there no formal council, there is no evidence that any list of books was drawn up at Jabneh.
- A specific discussion of acceptance at Jabneh is attested only for the books of Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon. Even so, arguments regarding these books persisted in Judaism centuries after the Jabneh period. There were also subsequent debates about Esther*
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BendedKnee
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Yes, all this is understood. Certainly not a simple matter. I thank you for pointing out the err in my post.
The Bible of Luther and those of the early reformers did include the full canon and they worked tirelessly to translate it. But that full canon was wrongly divided (correct?) by the “demotion” of the deuterocanonicals, which were completely removed by later Protestants.
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NotWorthy
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Wrong. The Council in Jamnia rejected the New Testament writings, but they did not close their Canon. There are still disputes among Jews as to the OT Canon. For instance, the Ethiopian Jews hold to the OT Canon of the Catholic Church… and they may include a few others, but I don’t recall.
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NotWorthy
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Start a new thread.
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NotWorthy
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Please give the complete details, instead of leaving out important facts.
Yes, Jerome questioned their canonicity. One of the main reasons he rejected it was because there were no Hebrew versions of these. This was wrong, as evidenced by the Dead Sea Scrolls.
No, Jerome wasn’t “forced”. He was commanded by his superior. St. Jerome, unlike Luther, proved to be a loyal Christian.
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NotWorthy
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I’ll have to look, but it won’t be til tonight. I understood that 6 of the 7 Deutero’s were found in Hebrew among the DSS.If I could ask your source for your first statement
I just posted a link on another thread that says three.
Thanks.
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