Why Protestants Reject the Deutero-canonical Books

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The odd thing is that I accept the deuterocanon. I’m still being argued with.
The question is: why do you accept the Deuterocanon?
If it’s not because you believe in the teaching Authority that Jesus duly authorized, then you are in conflict with Jesus’ teachings.
Nothing makes you guys happy.
Truth makes us happy, and winning souls over to Christ.
Now I know why Zwingli went nuts 😛
Sure. Because he denied Christ’s teachings.
 
Hi Randy,
For the record, ISTM that the big issue on the Lutheran side was things like private masses, indulgences, etc. The idea of purgation has never left the Lutheran understanding. Even in 2 Macc there is no evidence of an intermediate state/place.
ISTM that you last 2 sentences are at least at odds, if not contradictory.
And your last sentence is incorrect. If there is no intermediate state/place, then why would it be beneficial to pray for the dead? If they’re in Hell, it does no good; if they’re in Heaven, they have no need of your prayers.
I, for one, frankly don’t care much what Calvin said, but I agree that
  1. many of the Fathers endorsed them,
  2. early synods endorsed them
  3. the East, likewise endorses them
    4)there’s some pretty cool stuff in them
So, they should be included, and read from, and taught from, what has been the Lutheran practice in Europe all along.
The only valid reason, ultimately, is to trust in the Church that Jesus authorized to make such decisions, NOT your own personal judgement.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with private masses and indulgences, properly understood. They can be abused, just as any Spirit-given charism may, but in themselves they are just fine and indeed scriptural.
 
ISTM that you last 2 sentences are at least at odds, if not contradictory.
And your last sentence is incorrect. **If there is no intermediate state/place, then why would it be beneficial to pray for the dead? If they’re in Hell, it does no good; if they’re in Heaven, they have no need of your prayers. **

The only valid reason, ultimately, is to trust in the Church that Jesus authorized to make such decisions, NOT your own personal judgement.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with private masses and indulgences, properly understood. They can be abused, just as any Spirit-given charism may, but in themselves they are just fine and indeed scriptural.
Exactly!
 
I’m glad you asked that…😃
Oh, so am I 😉
Usually it is because the protestants (and here I mean mainly of the heavy duty “Bible only” variety) make it a point of contention. This can happen in different ways…
Fo instance…
  1. The subject of praying to for the dead / purgatory comes up…The BO protestant says, “Show me praying for the dead in the bible”…I say sure, and give him 2 Maccabees. His response is - “That’s not in the bible”…and the conversation instantly turns to what constitutes the canon of Scripture. This gets deep into history and the traditional relationship between the authority of the written word and the authority of the visible Church.
  1. The assertion is made by the BO protestant about not adding or taking from this book. My response is that the protestants already did this when they removed books. (usually the other person has been taught that the Catholics added books. Again this digs deep back into history and the relationship between the word and oral tradition etc…
  1. Or the conversation might be revolving around the “unity” of the early Church locations - were they locally independent or part of one great, organized whole? In this, especially before 400 AD there can be little doubt that the Church relied on it’s structure - even amid persecution - to protect the Gospel and spread the Good News.
So the reason it becomes contentious between protestants and Catholics is because of the reliance that the protestant places on “Bible Alone”.
Now - in groups such as the Lutherans who are not so adamant…the canon is really less of a problem. In discussions on matters of purgatory etc. you would accept our using Maccabees as a reference.
sorry - got a bit wordy there…
Peace
James
No apologies needed for the wordy.

I can see what you’re saying. On the other hand, if I had a dime for every time a thread with the title “BLAAARRG Luther removed books from the Bible” I could buy CAF.
 
Oh, so am I 😉
No apologies needed for the wordy.
Thanks.
I can see what you’re saying. On the other hand, if I had a dime for every time a thread with the title “BLAAARRG Luther removed books from the Bible” I could buy CAF.
:rotfl:
Funny - I don’t remember ever seeing a thread that started “BLAAARRG”😃

Of course I can only answer for myself - can’t say what reasons others might have.

And I won’t say that I am not guilty of guiding (consciously or not) a conversation into such a vein. 👍
But the contention over the canon is less about the canon itself than on the problems that come from the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and some of the supposed “biblical churches” out there.

Peace
James
 
I’m glad you asked that…😃

Usually it is because the protestants (and here I mean mainly of the heavy duty “Bible only” variety) make it a point of contention. This can happen in different ways…
Fo instance…
  1. The subject of praying to for the dead / purgatory comes up…The BO protestant says, “Show me praying for the dead in the bible”…I say sure, and give him 2 Maccabees. His response is - “That’s not in the bible”…and the conversation instantly turns to what constitutes the canon of Scripture. This gets deep into history and the traditional relationship between the authority of the written word and the authority of the visible Church.
  2. The assertion is made by the BO protestant about not adding or taking from this book. My response is that the protestants already did this when they removed books. (usually the other person has been taught that the Catholics added books. Again this digs deep back into history and the relationship between the word and oral tradition etc…
  3. Or the conversation might be revolving around the “unity” of the early Church locations - were they locally independent or part of one great, organized whole? In this, especially before 400 AD there can be little doubt that the Church relied on it’s structure - even amid persecution - to protect the Gospel and spread the Good News.
So the reason it becomes contentious between protestants and Catholics is because of the reliance that the protestant places on “Bible Alone”.

Now - in groups such as the Lutherans who are not so adamant…the canon is really less of a problem. In discussions on matters of purgatory etc. you would accept our using Maccabees as a reference.

sorry - got a bit wordy there…

Peace
James
Hi JRKH: I agree! I have had that same problem also and it seems that in the end it does not good to try and talk to them as they have already made up their minds that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
 
Hi JRKH: I agree! I have had that same problem also and it seems that in the end it does not good to try and talk to them as they have already made up their minds that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Yes that certainly can happen, but then I have also had conversations that started out a bit contentious but later became very fruitful.
The first thing to remember is that we are planting seeds…That’s all.
Second thing to remember is that patience is a requirement because people rarely change their minds suddenly.
The most we can hope for is to give good arguments, lovingly conveyed, so that when they recall the conversation later there is no angst.
Then they will (hopefully) be able to really think through the points made and recognize their validity.

Never assume that just because someone has “already made up their mind” that they cannot change their mind. I should know…I’ve done it hundreds of times. 😉

Peace
James
 
The BO protestant says, “Show me praying for the dead in the bible”
Peace
James
Yes, I love reseaching the scriptures, and providing Scriptural support, but there is a mentality that thinks we just pull stuff out of a hat. If you asked many of these “Bible Christians”, “who is St Damasus and St Jerome?” They dont have a clue! 🤷
 
=JRKH;11974932
But the contention over the canon is less about the canon itself than on the problems that come from the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and some of the supposed “biblical churches” out there.
Peace
James
They can start calling themselves bible churches when they start agreeing with Peter that baptism saves.
 
Stop with the Patrick Madrid hand me downs, Nicea 😛 It makes dialogue impossible. No one is talking about the canon, but rather, the source of apostolic doctrine.
Not Patrick Madrid hand me downs, but rather old hand me downs being repeated over and over for the last 500 years.

So the canon has no relation to Apostolic doctrine?
 
Not Patrick Madrid hand me downs, but rather old hand me downs being repeated over and over for the last 500 years.

So the canon has no relation to Apostolic doctrine?
No, because the canon is not a doctrine. At least, not in the sense that a teaching of the apostles from Christ is.
 
No, because the canon is not a doctrine. At least, not in the sense that a teaching of the apostles from Christ is.
Precisely. And it wasn’t even a doctrine for Roman Catholics until Trent (yes, Florence and Hippo had ‘standardizing’ effects for local regions, but the canon itself was not formal doctrine until then). I think this is where both Roman Catholics and Bible-Only Prottys have fallen into a trap: both rely entirely on an ‘infallible’ table of contents - one put together by a group of sinful men, the other magically put together by itself. Neither seems to pay much mind to the fact that it is the Regula Fide that truly matters.

Sola Scriptura is such a cool catchphrase but it’s been so terribly misunderstood. I think part of that misunderstanding is what led to the overreaction of Trent, in making “Anathema” anyone who used a different canon. Just silliness when you look at the different canons used by the early church.

I’ve linked it on other threads, but it bears linking again methinks: internetmonk.com/archive/thinking-about-the-canon-a-lutheran-view
 
The question is: why do you accept the Deuterocanon?
If it’s not because you believe in the teaching Authority that Jesus duly authorized, then you are in conflict with Jesus’ teachings.
I accept them because it was the general concensus of the Church Catholic that they are scripture, even though that general sense was not, by any means unanimous.

Jon
 
Yes that certainly can happen, but then I have also had conversations that started out a bit contentious but later became very fruitful.
The first thing to remember is that we are planting seeds…That’s all.
Second thing to remember is that patience is a requirement because people rarely change their minds suddenly.
The most we can hope for is to give good arguments, lovingly conveyed, so that when they recall the conversation later there is no angst.
Then they will (hopefully) be able to really think through the points made and recognize their validity.

Never assume that just because someone has “already made up their mind” that they cannot change their mind. I should know…I’ve done it hundreds of times. 😉

Peace
James
Hi JRKH" I again agree and I do try to be patient with them and I also do not argue with them as that seems never to work. I just do as you said try and plant the seed. The problem that I am referring to is those who want to argue their view and insist that everyone else is incorrect in their thinking and that they because they read and study the Bible know the real truth because they have the Holy Spirit to guide them and everyone else does not. When I say to them I am a Catholic at first they are nice but then the get the anti-Catholic rant going so then it becomes impossible to continue talking to them. So in the end I pray for them that they will see the light of the truth the Catholic Church teaches. Peace.
 
SyroMalankara;11973490]Not sure what the last sentence means in relation to this topic, my point is that all the varying Canons are equally valid, as long as they have Synodal approval by the Church. The Armenian Canon, used by Armenian Catholics and Orthodox alike; the Syriac Canon, used by Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Syro-Malankara Catholics, Syriac Orthodox, and Malankara Orthodox alike; etc. The varying Canons were never a point of contention within the Communion of Churches, even when they were different for each of the Churches - as long as Communion and unity of Faith were maintained.
That is a good point you make here. Such a subject makes it difficult to remain on topic in this discussion.

It should be noted however that the Western Catholic liturgical canon laws are separate from the Eastern Catholic liturgical canon laws, which is relative to the subject you raised.

The other question is why the diverse canonical books that are used in each ones liturgy? That is a subject that takes on a case by case study.

Trying to keep it short here; Before the persecution laws against the Catholic Church were lifted by Pagan Rome. Many of these Church communities you mentioned suffered and were secluded from the Popes and other apostolic sees. During which time, some of them introduced later writings into their liturgies that were proven to be Gnostic writings and false gospels with original apostles names attached.

Those who followed Marcion’s teachings removed the Old Testament all together, when Marcion mutilated Luke’s Gospel and other New Testament books. It was subjects like these and many others which included the Jews trying to discredit Jesus as a false prophet who quoted from the Greek text of the LXX and not the Hebrew Text, which moved the Church to council for the canonization of her liturgical books.

If your Church Father’s present at the Church councils could prove their liturgical books met the Canon, many of these were easily proven, others were rejected and proven heretical or not inspired. It is from these early councils that heretics and heterodoxy was exposed but that is another subject.

Then comes the subject of capital “T” Tradition and small “t” that allows the freedom of each apostolic successor to maintain their Liturgy from these traditions which introduces the diverse canonical books used in each Apostolic See, that other Church communities were already following since their original apostle evangelized them. This subject introduces Liturgical practice according to each ones culture and language that maintained it’s apostolic authenticity which proved it’s Liturgical canon.
I am not really sure what you mean by “Universal Canon”, they varied for each Church in the Catholic Communion, and still do to this day.
Universal = Catholic Canon. I relate this term to the Canon that was approved multiple times in Church councils throughout the centuries beginning from 382 a.d. This Canon was approved when the Empire was one and all the apostolic sees world wide were still in full communion with the Chair of Peter as one.

Each time the books came into question, the Church council’s, and the Church maintained the Canon when the Popes ratified them in different centuries, settling the disputes in every age. Trent finally had enough with Luther’s renaming the Deutero books as Apocrypha, that She placed a self anathema to anyone else who ever disputes them again.

What varies? is in the canon of each ones apostolic liturgy. The Catholic Church counseled approved canon never varies, recorded history attests this fact.

This present canon is unchanged since 382 a.d officially declared them canonical, which is a miracle in itself, proves their authenticity, that survived every onslaught man could ever deliver to the Catholic Church’s canon of Inspired books of the bible, unchanged to today.

Peace be with you
 
Dear SyroMalankara;

I neglected to introduce my main thought to our discussion, in conclusion;

It is very important to understand that those diverse Catholic communities you mentioned. Were already practicing their Apostolic liturgies long before the Church canonized the bible books.

Many of these Catholic communities have diverse canon books early on, because many of them did not receive or practice in their ancient liturgies the whole of the canonized books yet, nor did the Popes or Church council force the canon upon their liturgies, they maintain their Orthodoxy here which is apostolic and True. Their canons alone proves their apostolic liturgy authenticity, it never discounts their authenticity of canon books in each ones apostolic liturgy.

Rome never discounts these diverse canons used in each Apostolic successor’s liturgy. Because their Liturgies are apostolic and were in practice long before all the books were canonized. Their diverse Liturgical canon of books authenticates their Apostolicity and Orthodoxy.

Rome has always used the whole of the Canon, because Peter and his apostolic successors who still had the ringing of the apostles voices in their ears (Clement, Ignatius etc.) were in direct contact with these writings from the apostles, when other apostolic sees under persecution did not receive these books in their apostolic liturgies.

Thus the whole of the Canon maintains Romes Orthodoxy from Peter and Paul distinctively from other Apostolic sees.

I hope my commentary helps see through all the diverse canons used in each Catholic community you mentioned, is profound and beautiful. Rome does not view these canons in the least negative, but very Orthodox.

Peace be with you
 
rcwitness;11973525]👍 good word
Something I have trouble coming to terms with, is why (from their own point of view) do Protestants accept or reject any of the books/epistles which the Church canonized?
Thanks rcwitness; Authority and Liturgy is the simple answer. When Protestantism tries to remove the canon outside of it’s original place The Liturgy. When the reformers separated the bible from the Liturgy, they placed the bible outside of it’s original Apostolic form. When they made their clarion call “Sola Scriptura”. It is from this man made doctrine which introduced chaos among the denominations of Protestantism and biblical self interpretations apart from the Apostolic Sacred Traditions and practices including Jesus teachings about the authority of the Apostolic Church.

We can go into their reasons to justify their theological changes from the Apostolic sacred Traditions and biblical practices. They begin justifiable, but their actions and conclusions become political and secular with religion attached to them.
Isn’t it true that Pope Damasus commissioned the ‘collecting’ or ‘bringing together’ the writings in order to recognize which books had ‘universal’ authority and divine inspiration?
Wow, I want to answer that in the positive. Pope Damasus does not do this upon his own. The Pope can only hand down what was handed down to him from Peter and the apostles. We can’t isolate each Pope on his own, when it comes to the Apostolic Sacred Traditions and biblical revelations of Jesus who reveals them to Peter and the Apostles.

Was Pope Damasus instrumental in bringing about the canonized books, yes. But it is the Popes presiding in Peter’s Chair which binds and looses them on earth, when Jesus binds and looses them in heaven. When Peter speaks, all fell silent, that’s biblical.
Then, after the Church under the authority of the pope’s comission and final say (not that he alone contributed to the task) had fullfilled this task of forming the ‘Bible’, Protestantism takes that Bible and uses it to teach against a unified Communion under the office which God used to form that Bible
.

Peter and all his apostolic brethren canonized the bible. This only means that the Pope and the Apostolic successors used a measuring standard to authenticate and prove the bible books were God breathed or Inspired. Remember it was the Roman Emperor Constantine who financed the Church to council in order to settle the disputed books in liturgy, after the persecution laws were finally lifted throughout the Empire. The Apostolic Successors were able to move about freely and celebrate Mass in public.

Protestantism Isolated the bible from it’s Apostolic Liturgical setting, and self proclaimed the bible to have it’s own authority to preach and teach outside of the Apostolic teaching office of the Church and Liturgy. This is a huge irony of events, as you stated that pits the bible against it’s own teaching office the Catholic Church who canonized the bible books.
This is in no way a slight against Protestant devotion and genuine faith in Scripture, but a struggle to understand how Protestantism can come to the doctrines which contradict the authority that produced their ‘sole authority’ :shrug
:

The false notion of protestant freedom poisoned the religious atmosphere with freedoms being experienced from social, secular, politics and geography (new worlds). This poison tried to infect change into the Church were Christ Himself established as Rock which is not subject to Change.

When the America’s were discovered , Protestant freedom was abused on every level. That one Pope proclaimed to the Church, “Beware of that poison, which they are calling freedom in the America’s”.

In regards to the OP, as I questioned from an earlier post, when did Protestantism gain the authority and power to reject or rename an Inspired book of God? The abuse of freedom to add to God’s word, (alone), remove from God’s Word, separate God’s Word from His divine Liturgy, and thrive on a false notion of emotional self freedom enlightenments instead of God’s presence who is the Light.

For the life of me, I don’t see how educated and religious most Protestants are, cannot distinguish the difference from What belongs to God does not subject itself to change and what belongs to Caesar is always changing.

False freedom say’s; Oh yes I can change what God has ordained, because I am a child of God and God loves me, and I don’t need any pope or bishop teaching me what Jesus said and taught, when I got part of a bible that I can read for myself what God say’s.

I’m left shaking my head today when I learn of a protestant who are looking to convert again, into an Orthodox Church to find the True Church, when they have it right in front of them, from which they left. The grass is not greener on the other side of the imaginary line of schism, for we are all part of the same mystical body of Jesus Christ the Catholic Church.

Peace be with you
 
Very interesting thread on these books. In other threads that talked about them all sorts of idea’s were given as to why these books are not a part of Protestantism. Guess it lead to in the past of some Protestants thinking that the Catholic Church added these books that were not part of the bible, or so it appears.
The argument I usually hear is that the CC added these books at the Council of Trent. This is based on the argument that any other prior councils that listed the books of the Bible were local synods and not binding on the entire Church. The fact that they were in the Vulgate for like a thousand years prior to the Council of Trent does not seem to impress those that hold to this argument.

OH, I forgot, I think the “Bible Answer Man” says one of the reason they should not be in the Bible is that they are not inspired.

NOW - what I have always struggled with is why the Orthodox have still more OT books (like Maccabees 3). I am guessing the Eastern Churches did not use the Vulgate?
 
=FathersKnowBest;11974778]ISTM that you last 2 sentences are at least at odds, if not contradictory.
And your last sentence is incorrect. If there is no intermediate state/place, then why would it be beneficial to pray for the dead? If they’re in Hell, it does no good; if they’re in Heaven, they have no need of your prayers.
Hi FKB,
First, I am not personally willing to limit God to our understanding of time and its limits.
Secondly, even though there is no reference in 2 Macc. to an intermediate state/place, it seems Judas Maccabeus gives us the reason to pray for the dead: 2 Macc. 12:44
44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
It seems that it is only foolish to pray for the dead if one doesn’t believe in the resurrection.

Additionally, Cardinal Ratzinger says the following:
The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet **trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. **The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
And Father George Tavard:
Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.
It also seems that, even for prominent Catholic theologians, it isn’t the length of time that determines the validity or importance of prayer for our dearly departed.
The only valid reason, ultimately, is to trust in the Church that Jesus authorized to make such decisions, NOT your own personal judgement.
I would absolutely agree, even though I don’t see His Church only and exclusively communion with the Bishop of Rome. Further, prior to Trent, Catholics did have the privilege to dispute certain books of the canon.
My choice is to trust the majority of the Church on this matter, without in any way discounted the views of important leaders and theologians of the Church throughout history who may have held alternate views.
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with private masses and indulgences, properly understood. They can be abused, just as any Spirit-given charism may, but in themselves they are just fine and indeed scriptural.
This is not a gottcha question, but an honest one: what is the history of indulgences in the early, pre-schism Church? It seems that Orthodoxy has no parallel practice.
There is no similar concept of indulgences within Orthodox Christianity.
[There is no similar concept of indulgences within Orthodox Christianity](There is no similar concept of indulgences within Orthodox Christianity)

Jon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top